What parts of Torah can we still keep today?

[Connock]

Laws of Moses:
Keep it, and you must keep ALL 613
Break one, and you have broken ALL 613

At no point in history were gentiles ever constrained by the Law of Moses, which stems from the Sinatic Covenant between God and Israel. Anyone has always been free to join Israel and attempt to follow the Law (that has never been denied), but none have been required to. Gentiles were never bound by it, and all those in Christ are not bound to it.

Why would anyone feel compelled to fall back into Mosaic Law? I believe it's human nature. Natural Man feels secure following a scripted list of rules. Rules that adherents must not only follow, but also be seen to be following. This is common to all world religions---except one. (cough, cough)

 

[disciplemike]

Sanctified by the word of God means that it is Jesus' sacrifice that has sanctified all foods.

Well if jesus sanctified all foods,
His Father is changing it back.

"For behold, the YHVH will come in fire, and his chariots like the whirlwind,
to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
For by fire will YHVH enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh;
and those slain by YHVH shall be many.
"Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens,
following one in the midst,
eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice,
shall come to an end together, declares YHVH.
Isaiah 66:15-17 (ESV2011, MBM)

 

[disciplemike]

At no point in history were gentiles ever constrained by the Law of Moses,

Oh really.
you don't even need a Savior then.
go party!

 

[Grace777x70]

Well if jesus sanctified all foods,
His Father is changing it back.

"For behold, the YHVH will come in fire, and his chariots like the whirlwind,
to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
For by fire will YHVH enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh;
and those slain by YHVH shall be many.
"Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens,
following one in the midst,
eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice,
shall come to an end together, declares YHVH.
Isaiah 66:15-17 (ESV2011, MBM)

You always fail to see Christ now. The Father has spoken to us in these last days in His Son...after speaking in the old covenant. Hebrews 1:1-3


You continually reject Christ to try to get believers to desert their Lord for the law of Moses which is obsolete. Come to Christ disciplemike and stop trying to get Christians to desert their Lord. Gal 1:6

 

[KohenMatt]

Laws of Moses:
Keep it, and you must keep ALL 613
Break one, and you have broken ALL 613

At no point in history were gentiles ever constrained by the Law of Moses, which stems from the Sinatic Covenant between God and Israel. Anyone has always been free to join Israel and attempt to follow the Law (that has never been denied), but none have been required to. Gentiles were never bound by it, and all those in Christ are not bound to it.

Why would anyone feel compelled to fall back into Mosaic Law? I believe it's human nature. Natural Man feels secure following a scripted list of rules. Rules that adherents must not only follow, but also be seen to be following. This is common to all world religions---except one. (cough, cough)

Hi Connock,

I agree with some of the things you said here.
However, the law isn't just about a scripted list of rules. Rather, it should be a people's loving response to a loving God. If a wife asks her husband to do certain things around the house, it shouldn't only be a scripted list of rules, but something a husband wants to do for his wife and for the good of the home. If the husband doesn't do those things, will they still be married? Yes. Will they be very happy? Not likely.

And if in the midst of your coughing fit (God bless you, ) you were referring to Christianity as the 1 religion that doesn't have rules that people must follow and also be seen following, there are many denominations that would prove otherwise.

Be Blessed.

 

[disciplemike]

The Father has spoken to us

"For behold, the YHVH will come in fire, and his chariots like the whirlwind,
to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
For by fire will YHVH enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh;
and those slain by YHVH shall be many.
"Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens,
following one in the midst,
eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice,
shall come to an end together, declares YHVH.
Isaiah 66:15-17 (ESV2011, MBM)

so you can't see that this is a future reference in this passage.
sad. your pride is thick.

 

[Grace777x70]

so you can't see that this is a future reference in this passage.
sad. your pride is thick.

Your continual denial of the Lord Jesus Christ in favor of the law is what is thick. No one is going to fall for your religion here. This is a Christ based forum. Your religion is an anti-Christ belief system that denies the work of Christ on the cross and resurrection.

The saints have been adequately warned about this anti-Christ religion that you and some others are espousing here.

We are not going to commit spiritual adultery on our Lord to go back to the Law. We are dead to the law SO THAT we could be joined to Another - Christ Himself.

 

[Connock]

Hi Matt,
Thank you for your thoughtful response and opportunity to clarify. My comment on rules was meant to describe human nature, not the Law of Moses. It is not to attack the Torah or Judaism, only to illustrate the universal natural human tendency to define their religion/faith, in whole or in part, to a 'moral code'. I know of no exception, and for the most part, many Christian denominations are guilty of falling ("relapsing") into this mindset.

Someone made the comment that its baffling how Christians would voluntarily start observing Mosaic Law. I see it the same way. If we do, we are clearly required to keep all of it (Gal 5:3). Nobody (not even the most orthodox Jews) can do this successfully. We instead have Christ, and His work on the Cross was perfect - all we need.

One possible reason (and there are probably more) is this natural human rule-keeping compulsion that we observe universally across cultures. Christianity attempts a radically different approach. Christ's work on the cross is perfect and complete. Our faith does not require us to follow the Mosaic Law, but does transform us and compel us to act compassionately and ethically. A Christian's actions (works) are not the cause of, but rather the result of, of our salvation. That is what I meant to say, perhaps ineloquently. I don't know of any other faith system that does this (though again, there's a lot I don't know).

If you meant "there are many denominations that would prove otherwise" in the sense of Christian denominations that attempt to keep the Law of Moses (or another explicit list of rules) then I 100% agree with you. The church in Galatia was one, and we still have them today. Peace in Christ to you.

 

[Connock]

Oh really.
you don't even need a Savior then.
go party!

Dear Mike
Thank you for your reply. We do indeed need a Saviour - that is the whole point. We need Christ and not the Law.

By "go party!" do you mean that I am free to do whatever I want? You are right!!! I am. But that doesn't mean I will *choose* the type of behaviour that Law-keepers would consider profane.

It also doesn't mean that behaviour earns salvation. Salvation in Christ instead changes a person and the behaviour changes too as a result of salvation, not a cause of it. But we do need a Saviour - first and foremost.

 

[pottersclay]

easter is pagan.
xmas is pagan.
eating pork is sin.
it doesn't matter what you think. or what I think.

Eating pork is sin? Hey guys I caught God lieing to peter.

 

[gb9]

not to mention Jesus saying that NOTHING that enters a person defiles a person. guess nothing really does not mean what it appears!!

 

[disciplemike]

It also doesn't mean that behaviour earns salvation. Salvation in Christ instead changes a person and the behaviour changes too as a result of salvation, not a cause of it. But we do need a Saviour - first and foremost.

what salvation? if gentiles are not under the law at all, there is no sin. no salvation needed.

 

[oldethennew]

thick prides - thin prides -big know it alls - little know it alls....so many categories,
SO many different characters.....it will never end really...satan rules here...

Christ is The Lord, our God of Salvation, our only way to continue on...' with Him into Eternity...
Love Him 'first' there is only ONE KEY - only ONE WAY...

 

[jcha]

You always fail to see Christ now. The Father has spoken to us in these last days in His Son...after speaking in the old covenant. Hebrews 1:1-3


You continually reject Christ to try to get believers to desert their Lord for the law of Moses which is obsolete. Come to Christ disciplemike and stop trying to get Christians to desert their Lord. Gal 1:6

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also has made us able ministers of the new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.

It should be very clear here that Paul is teaching about the “new covenant.” Paul actually refers to it by name in verse 6. We can not ignore this. Now we have Paul not only directly referencing the new
covenant but also using prophetic language that details the expected changes in the new covenant. This can only mean that Paul is teaching how the law of God is written on our heart (Jer. 31:33, Ez. 36:27), not how the law of God is abolished. What is written (all of it) on our heart simply can not also be the same thing that is abolished.

The question remains, how does God give us the desire or spirit to want to observe the Law of God? How does He write it on our hearts?

This is the part that many miss because they do not understand the whole point of the New Covenant. The New Covenant is not a new law replacing an abolished law, but instead a new heart to replace a stony heart that rejects the Law of God.

In order for the New Covenant to be successful, God must do something to give us the desire to observe Gods law. We need to determine what God did that changed everything.

The letter of the law is designed to kill us by exposing our sin. The law must kill us so that we may be born again. Once we are found dead in Christ and we become the “new man” and we are “born again” in the faith, we then begin to love God. Loving God is defined by keeping His commandments.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[jcha]

Romans 7:12, 14, 22
"Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandments holy, and just and good ... For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin ... For I delight in the law of God after the inward man."
Going after the Spirit (letting the Spirit lead and guide us) or being “spiritual” means obedience to the law of God. Being fleshy or carnal is one who denies and breaks the law of God. Paul continues to explain this in chapter 8 of Romans. It is the carnal mind that refuses to obey God’s law and does not want to, however it is the Spiritual mind in Christ that does want to obey God’s law.

 

[jcha]

Ezekiel 11:19-20
"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."

A stony heart brings death but a heart of flesh brings life. This is what Paul was talking about in 2 Corinthians 3:3,6.

2 Corinthians 3:3,6
"Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tablets of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart ... Who also has made us able ministers of the new testament (covenant): not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life."

So what is the purpose of the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant?

1. The Holy Spirit is a witness that the Newer Covenant = Law written upon our heart (Jeremiah 31:31, 33, Hebrews 10:15-16)
2. The Holy Spirit was sent into the earth to teach us the TRUTH of God (John 14:16-17, 26, 15:26, John 16:13)
3. What is the TRUTH? God's Law/Word of God IS TRUTH? (not WAS truth) ( Psalm 119:142, John 17:17)
4. God wanted to write His law (all, not some) upon our heart and teach us His law which is called "TRUTH" (Psalm 119:142) through His Holy Spirit who is called "THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH" (John 14:16-17,26, 15:26, 16:13)
5. We need God's Spirit WITHIN us for the following reasons:
   a) Have the power to overcome the sin nature inherited by Adam
   b) To bear spiritual fruit in our lives (Galatians 5:22-25)
   c) To understand, grow, and have a revelation of God's Torah/Word

 

[wvbeliever]

Kohenmatt I will start with I presented to you what you said to me you spoke from your heart I went by your words as you do mine not anyone else's we are allowed to do that and test one another spirits. That is truth seeking not judiging for instance spare the rod spoil the child how can you do that without judging ? You can't we have limited judgement this life just like juding what is right or wrong. Thats how cops fight crime with wise judgement starting with God first and going from there. But who goes to Heaven and Hell God is the author of that Judgement.

Jesus took all believers not unbelievers away from the bondage of the law and the curse that it brings to all mankind where all of mankind has sinned and fell short of the glory of God. And now all believers not unbelievers are in his debt and bondage where he took the wraith of the OT law away "Saved by Grace" for all of those who believe in Him in faith making this official with the shedding of Christ's blood on the cross in the NT. He paid the price for everyone else's sin. Now either before or after Jesus came it doesn't matter if you commit one sin you are the slave of sin cut off from God "Adam and Eve down to the last person born" and now the whole law works against everyone that has sinned Jew or Gentile it doesn't matter. Gods perfection was always there before the law and He knew what sin was before Moses even gave the law to Israel. God gave Moses knowledge of right and wrong "the law" to give to Israel their covenant "the Jews" not "Christians" of what to do in detail and what not to in detail so they could be set aside and be His people before Jesus came and the Jews knew the law pointed to the Messiah who would come later and who will complete it not do away with and they cant be saved from the curse of the law until He does.


And when Jesus completed the law "fulfilled it" living a perfect a sinless life to the death on the cross OH how does the precious blood of the Lamb cleanse all His children that was spilled for I have all faith in that perfect blood so that the Law could be completed but not deleted. Now there is no difference between the Jews or Gentile slave or free or male or female we are one in Christ. Now if anyone wants to come to Jesus personally they can night or day the "veil" is broken. When it comes to the Sabbath Day God never said before the "law of Moses" for anyone to observe one it is isn't in the bible look for it. He told "Israel" in the "LAW" that was their day to observe rest in the OT law just as God told believers in the NT Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and we can rest in Him. Thus showing the book of Hebrews true the Sabbath was not done away with but we can have one whenever we want any day of the week and the Law isn't broken but all things fulfilled in Christ. See Jesus never did away with the Sabbath he gave us the freedom of either observing it or not any day of the week just like Passover you can celebrate it now or don't it is your choice. All things are in perfected in Christ. Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath day Christians do not live by the law of the OT we live in Christ.

 

[Connock]

what salvation? if gentiles are not under the law at all, there is no sin. no salvation needed.

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Ro 3:23).

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;" (Eph 2:8)

QED

 

[Grace777x70]

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also has made us able ministers of the new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.

It should be very clear here that Paul is teaching about the “new covenant.” Paul actually refers to it by name in verse 6. We can not ignore this. Now we have Paul not only directly referencing the new
covenant but also using prophetic language that details the expected changes in the new covenant. This can only mean that Paul is teaching how the law of God is written on our heart (Jer. 31:33, Ez. 36:27), not how the law of God is abolished. What is written (all of it) on our heart simply can not also be the same thing that is abolished.

The question remains, how does God give us the desire or spirit to want to observe the Law of God? How does He write it on our hearts?

This is the part that many miss because they do not understand the whole point of the New Covenant. The New Covenant is not a new law replacing an abolished law, but instead a new heart to replace a stony heart that rejects the Law of God.

In order for the New Covenant to be successful, God must do something to give us the desire to observe Gods law. We need to determine what God did that changed everything.

The letter of the law is designed to kill us by exposing our sin. The law must kill us so that we may be born again. Once we are found dead in Christ and we become the “new man” and we are “born again” in the faith, we then begin to love God. Loving God is defined by keeping His commandments.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

We need to remember that Jesus is the real substance of the Law. He fulfilled the Law. The law itself is but a mere shadow of the real thing which is Christ - Himself.

We know exactly what God's commandments are in the New Covenant - and it is NOT the law of Moses. John who said that His commands are not grievous in chapter 1 John 5:3, had told us earlier exactly what those commandments are:

1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

We need to get our minds out of the keeping of the law of Moses and into the law of Christ Himself - He is the One on and in our hearts now.

The law written on our hearts is NOT the law of Moses - it is Christ Himself.

Here are the links that show these truths in the New Covenant.

The Law Written on Our Hearts is not the Ten Commandments

What is sin?

What is this law that is written on our hearts if it is NOT the ten commandments? ( hint - it's Christ Himself - He has the preeminence in all things and He is our life now in the New Covenant)

What is sin?

 

[Grace777x70]

Ezekiel 11:19-20
"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."

A stony heart brings death but a heart of flesh brings life. This is what Paul was talking about in 2 Corinthians 3:3,6.

2 Corinthians 3:3,6
"Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tablets of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart ... Who also has made us able ministers of the new testament (covenant): not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life."

So what is the purpose of the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant?

1. The Holy Spirit is a witness that the Newer Covenant = Law written upon our heart (Jeremiah 31:31, 33, Hebrews 10:15-16)
2. The Holy Spirit was sent into the earth to teach us the TRUTH of God (John 14:16-17, 26, 15:26, John 16:13)
3. What is the TRUTH? God's Law/Word of God IS TRUTH? (not WAS truth) ( Psalm 119:142, John 17:17)
4. God wanted to write His law (all, not some) upon our heart and teach us His law which is called "TRUTH" (Psalm 119:142) through His Holy Spirit who is called "THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH" (John 14:16-17,26, 15:26, 16:13)
5. We need God's Spirit WITHIN us for the following reasons:
   a) Have the power to overcome the sin nature inherited by Adam
   b) To bear spiritual fruit in our lives (Galatians 5:22-25)
   c) To understand, grow, and have a revelation of God's Torah/Word

You keep forgetting that Christ Himself is the fulfillment of the Law and we are dead to the law now that we have died with Christ and now we are alive to God - NOT the law of Moses. Jesus is the real substance of the law.

Galatians 2:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

Either pick the law of Moses or Christ for life and living.


No one here is going to desert Christ by going back to the law for life and living. Gal. 1:6

If one is going to live by the law - then he is obligated to live by all of it. There are no "parts" to the Law. Saying that some are for us and some are not is just watering down the Law to make it seem "do-able" but in reality "law-keepers" have a very low respect for the Law and in fact break the law every day.

Romans 10:4-5 (NASB)

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. [SUP]5 [/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

We have died to the Law SO THAT we might live unto God.

Galatians 2:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

There is no justification or right standing with God because one "keeps the law". Christians live by faith - faith in Christ and what He has already done and we live by His life in us now.

Galatians 3:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

The Law is NOT of faith and if you practice the Law - you must live by it.

Galatians 3:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."

When we are trying to keep the law of which circumcision is a part of - we are obligated to keep the whole law ( Remember there are NO PARTS to the law - it is either all or live by Christ by grace through faith in His finished work on the cross and resurrection )

Galatians 5:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

We can trust the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ in us to lead us into life in Him. Let's eat from the tree of Life - which is Christ Himself in us. The Law is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Choose Christ. He is our life. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Colossians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. ( NOT in the law of Moses )