What really were the gift of tongues? Acts.. and Corinthians...

[wattie]

wattie, I was just thinking about the idea you shared about the upper room meetings in Acts 1-2 being meetings of the church. And they all spoke in tongues in those meetings. So there is an example in scripture of everyone speaking in tongues, not just the disorderly Corinthians, but the apostles.

I read some teaching, I believe it was by Derrick Prince, who was from the WWII generation and passed away some time back, about speaking in tongues and church order. He believed that speaking in tongues should be interpreted for proper order in the church. But he made an exception for when someone is initially baptized with the Holy Spirit and receives speaking in tongues for the first time, like in Acts 2, Acts 10, or Acts 19.

Here is a question though................

Where do you find people having a Holy Spirit baptism ... by themselves?

I know those instances in Acts 2, 10, 19.. and they were at no time alone by themselves. Looks to me like each group is being empowered as new churches.

Already saved.. gathered together group of believers.. who are then empowered by the Holy Spirit.. given the Holy Spirit to be 'in their midst'

The individuals in the group already having being converted.. and having the Holy Spirit dwelling in each of them personally..

Given the Holy Spirit to be the Comforter for the local body they have been authorised to be.

 

[RickyZ]

You are not going to move mountains with your faith.

And that attitude roger, is EXACTLY why you will NEVER see the true power of God and the Holy Spirit in action.

Matthew 13:58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

Find true faith Rog. Only THEN will you get out of the Bible what was truly written into it!

 

[ember]

There's not enough in the bible to support the "heavenly tongues" position. There also isn't enough to not support it. Sometimes a firm "maybe" is all we get for now.

With that, I've never understood why people want to argue this one. It seems such a minor thing.

Or, maybe that is exactly why it is something people like to argue it. Because it is a minor thing.

my theory is that some argue this beyond reason because that is the only 'tangible' evidence of gifts they have! well that and the fact that some churches turn it into a major doctrine and push it because it's 'evidence' that God does in fact exist!

and just think, those words from someone who prays in tongues!

tongues were supposed to be sign with a purpose and NOT an end in themself



I read something the other day that I think is a bit of a refreshing take on spiritual gifts. so, the following are not my words, but I find them to be something I give serious consideration to. This:

"Paul says 'I write so that you know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the turh ..I Tim 3:15.

TRUTH is the object of our faith. If we know the truth, it will set us free to grow in love with the hope of eternity before us. The church is gifted to accomplish that objective.

GIFTS ARE ONLY A MEANS TO AN END, NEVER AN END IN THEMSELVES. When 'gifts' become an end in themselves they are counterfeit, or else they become the basis for spiritual pride. godly character is our goal and it must take precedence over the gifts."

And, if you are still with me on this one (well I know you are Lynn cause you seem to be an avid reader...but I mean everyone else because many don't really like a long post and I'm one of them) here is the clincher to the whole deal that I think is refreshing and something to give a big pause to:

"I'm concerned about the growing misuse of the gifts of prophecy and words of knowledge. Perspective is the value of distance. Step back from the details of I Corinthians 12-14, the classic passage on spiritual gifts. What is Paul trying to say?

There are as variety of spiritual gifts and manifestations of the Spirit. In the midst of this diversity, there is unity, because there is only one Spirit and one Lord. God gives the gifts as He wills.

Gifts and manifestations come and go and come again for the purpose of accomplishing God's will.

What remains is faith, hope and love. These are lasting and continuous standards by which we evaluate our ministry and lives."

A few things to note; the author does not deny any of the gifts...but rather the misuse and emphasis on them that takes away from that which will last...FAITH, HOPE AND LOVE

I support this view...not cessationism...and I support the same concerns of the author. I do not have the views I have because I read a book. I have lived the reasons I have the views I have.

I hope some will have, perhaps, a different understanding or viewpoint on how that famous passage in I Corinthians is often disagreed upon and perhaps some will see it in a different light.

A light not to argue in, but a light to give pause and possibly a small glimmer of something to agree upon because Jesus never said we would be known by our beliefs on the gifts, but rather by our love.

I'm not really a sentimental type of person...I prefer solid ground...the only real solid ground we have is the truth and Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

 

[notuptome]

And that attitude roger, is EXACTLY why you will NEVER see the true power of God and the Holy Spirit in action.

Matthew 13:58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

Find true faith Rog. Only THEN will you get out of the Bible what was truly written into it!

No point in moving mountains. Sharing the word of God and seeing souls saved now there is a demonstration of Gods power.

Perhaps if you adjusted your priorities you might witness God move in His majesty and power to save souls rescuing sinners from eternal condemnation.

Alas you are just too busy with the magic shows and rock bands to let God minister.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Your assertions aren't truth. They are your assertions.

Doesn't mean that they are not true.

You are the one reading this verse and insisting that there is no such thing as 'tongues of angels.'

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal."

Paul suggests the possibility of tongues of angels here. So you should at least be open to the possibility. To take that verse and try to create a doctrine that there are no 'tongues of angels' out of it is reading into the text something that is not there.

Not when we see the same teaching method used in Hebrews 6:4-6

You don't know whether I will sell all and give to the poor. I've got kids, so I have a duty to them, but some people have done this. Jesus commanded the rich young ruler to do this. It's not something impossible. It's also possible that some of those Christians that Nero burned may have had the opportunity to get out of being burned if they'd denied their faith, and that they really did give their bodies to be burned.

If you take Jesus' statement about speaking with faith and moving mountains literally, to be about literal mountains, then you should accept that this is something that is possible. If you take Jesus' and Paul's statements as some kind of metaphor, you should still accept it as possible.

Everything God does has a purpose. Consider your own heart and think about how corrupting that much authority would be given the weakness of the flesh.

Paul wrote about many topics in this epistle. He refers to preaching the Gospel to win souls, and he also gives instructions on how gifts, including tongues and interpretation, are to be used to edify the body of Christ.

Tongues are a sign gift for Israel. they were to bring Israel to Christ not as they are misused in todays church.

Not if used properly according to the teachings of the scripture. Divers tongues are among the gifts/manifestations of the Spirit I Corinthians 12 says are distributed as the Spirit wills. This is up to the Spirit. You do not have the authority to prevent the Spirit from giving these gifts if you do not agree that the passage is for today. It is not up to you.

The Holy Spirit does not act in the fashion claimed by the modern Pentecostal church. If you speak and someone understands you in another language then you have something from God. You cannot find a single example of the tongues you claim to practice in the bible.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

Not when we see the same teaching method used in Hebrews 6:4-6

I don't think anyone is going to get your point unless you explain it. Are you trying to argue for hyperbole in this passage?

Everything God does has a purpose. Consider your own heart and think about how corrupting that much authority would be given the weakness of the flesh.

Elijah was a man subject to 'like passions as we are' and it did not rain for three and a half years until he said so. God answered his prayer. He also called down fire from heaven. The apostles were men as well with their own weaknesses. Yet Christ entrusted them with a mission on which they were to heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils, even before the day of Pentecost. Believers in Jerusalem and Corinth were frail human beings with human weaknesses, and yet the Spirit of God empowered believers to do miracles, to speak in tongues, and to prophesy.

Tongues are a sign gift for Israel. they were to bring Israel to Christ not as they are misused in todays church.

The way you arrive at that conclusion is from interpreting a passage from Isaiah in a different way from how Paul interprets and applies the passage in I Corinthians 14.

If you speak and someone understands you in another language then you have something from God.

That would depend on the situation. Many, many people have experienced this sort of thing in modern times, btw. It is very possible to speak in real tongues without someone else understanding the language, too, according to the Bible, as I Corinthians 14 says, "No man understandeth him."


It seems like you continually keep arguing the same points without actually reading the Bible and gaining understanding of what it says. Why don't you humble yourself, pray for the Lord to open your heart to understand the truth, and then actually carefully read and study the relevant passages, Acts 2, I Corinthians 12-14, and other passages?

 

[presidente]

Here is a question though................

Where do you find people having a Holy Spirit baptism ... by themselves?

I know those instances in Acts 2, 10, 19.. and they were at no time alone by themselves. Looks to me like each group is being empowered as new churches.

Already saved.. gathered together group of believers.. who are then empowered by the Holy Spirit.. given the Holy Spirit to be 'in their midst'

The individuals in the group already having being converted.. and having the Holy Spirit dwelling in each of them personally..

Given the Holy Spirit to be the Comforter for the local body they have been authorised to be.

Pre-Pentecost the Spirit of God came upon plenty of individuals. The Spirit of God came on Zecharias, John's father, and he prophesied.

 

[presidente]

Something to keep in mind about I Corinthians 12-14 is that Paul is very positive and encouraging about spiritual gifts. Even when he was apparently correcting some people who may have been speaking in tongues without interpreting it in church, he doesn't squash their enthusiasm about spiritual gifts or even speaking in tongues. He is just careful to build up his case for speaking in tongues, interpreting, and prophesying in the proper order. Finally, he builds up to implying that his teachings on church order are the practice of the universal church and the fact that what he was teaching are the commandments of the Lord, but then commands the people to covet to prophesy and not forbid to speak in tongues.

Occasionally, I'll see a commentator, whether in a sermon, in a written commentary, or a poster online who has a very negative attitude toward certain gifts, who tries to read that into the passage. It just doesn't work with what the passage actually says.

Paul is careful to correct disorder, while at the same time encouraging and commanding saints to desire spiritual gifts and to operate in them.

 

[RickyZ]

No point in moving mountains. Sharing the word of God and seeing souls saved now there is a demonstration of Gods power.

Perhaps if you adjusted your priorities you might witness God move in His majesty and power to save souls rescuing sinners from eternal condemnation.

Alas you are just too busy with the magic shows and rock bands to let God minister.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You always make me laugh Rog. Of course the reason I laugh at you is because your ignorance really makes me want to cry.

If you were to remove your blinders, you'd see that God's power extends to waaaay more than just rescuing sinners. Like, leading, directing, and encouraging those who have already been saved. You know, God doesn't abandon us once we say I do. That is just the starting point.

That's what Paul meant when he talked about milk drinkers and meat eaters. And you my friend are parked at the dairy counter.

 

[RickyZ]

Alas you are just too busy with the magic shows and rock bands to let God minister.

Against the cause of Christ
Roger

Ok you guys are going to have to forgive me for derailing this for a minute while I make an honest attempt to open Rogers eyes.

The problem is Rog that you just don't see the big picture.

You mock the experience with the performer. But what is the big picture that arose from that? A brother did something in error, and was already being convicted by the Holy Spirit of his error. God says He will establish His word to us thru 2 or more witnesses. In this case, because someone was open to receiving a word of knowledge, and open to miraculous direction, this brother received confirming witness of the conviction he was already receiving from the Holy Spirit. What part of that do you find mockable Rog? What part of that is not a part of God's ministry Rog?

Magic show? I assume you're referring to the beach incident? What's the big picture view of that one? Here, a kid - who might not have been saved, or possibly was saved but having doubt - was brought by someone open to working a miracle to confess the power of God. Is that unbiblical Rog? I mean, assuming he was saved, having been saved was God then going to just let him wallow in doubt? That's what you are proposing Rog, that once saved God leaves us to wallow on our own. Or assume he was unsaved, this falls right into what you were proposing. Imagine an unsaved kid, thru the gifting of a miracle of God, being brought to confess God's power. How do you find any kind of issue with this Rog? Only by having tunnel vision and missing the big picture can you even begin to mock this event. And the Holy Spirit doesn't like being mocked Rog.

And this all goes back to what I said earlier in answer to the OP. You may not want to get into the debate but the cold hard fact is that how you see the place of the gifts today makes a huge difference in how you see what those gifts are. There's no getting around that. Other than putting on a pair of Roger's blinders.

Remove the blinders Roger. God's ministry extends beyond bringing souls to salvation. His ministry is just as much in providing guidance and assurance to the saved as it is to bringing the lost to salvation. But as long as you only see one side of that coin Rog, that's as long as you are going to be missing the big picture.

 

[wattie]

Pre-Pentecost the Spirit of God came upon plenty of individuals. The Spirit of God came on Zecharias, John's father, and he prophesied.

Well, I see in the Old Testament.. God would give the king of Israel.. didn't matter who it was.. His blessing as the king. He was annointing kings.

But this wasn't actually to do with giving someone eternal life. Saul was blessed this way in the Old Testament.. but there is no evidence in the bible that he was ever converted.. receiving eternal life.

David had this annointing as king of Israel. He was of course converted. He 'believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness'.


This isn't mentioned in the bible as being 'baptism of the Holy Spirit'

This is different to what was happening in the New Testament with the Holy Spirit administering to His churches.

To Zechariah tho..

2Ch_24:20 And the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, which stood above the people, and said unto them, Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the LORD, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the LORD, he hath also forsaken you.

Yup.. he is alone.. and yup.. the Holy Spirit did come 'upon' him..

This is still in the Old Testament though.

Is this.. God speaking thru someone.. like God did with the prophets? So the 'upon'.. is along the lines of 'this is a revelation from God for the people'.. like what the other prophets did in the OT?

 

[wattie]

Ok you guys are going to have to forgive me for derailing this for a minute while I make an honest attempt to open Rogers eyes.

The problem is Rog that you just don't see the big picture.

You mock the experience with the performer. But what is the big picture that arose from that? A brother did something in error, and was already being convicted by the Holy Spirit of his error. God says He will establish His word to us thru 2 or more witnesses. In this case, because someone was open to receiving a word of knowledge, and open to miraculous direction, this brother received confirming witness of the conviction he was already receiving from the Holy Spirit. What part of that do you find mockable Rog? What part of that is not a part of God's ministry Rog?

Magic show? I assume you're referring to the beach incident? What's the big picture view of that one? Here, a kid - who might not have been saved, or possibly was saved but having doubt - was brought by someone open to working a miracle to confess the power of God. Is that unbiblical Rog? I mean, assuming he was saved, having been saved was God then going to just let him wallow in doubt? That's what you are proposing Rog, that once saved God leaves us to wallow on our own. Or assume he was unsaved, this falls right into what you were proposing. Imagine an unsaved kid, thru the gifting of a miracle of God, being brought to confess God's power. How do you find any kind of issue with this Rog? Only by having tunnel vision and missing the big picture can you even begin to mock this event. And the Holy Spirit doesn't like being mocked Rog.

And this all goes back to what I said earlier in answer to the OP. You may not want to get into the debate but the cold hard fact is that how you see the place of the gifts today makes a huge difference in how you see what those gifts are. There's no getting around that. Other than putting on a pair of Roger's blinders.

Remove the blinders Roger. God's ministry extends beyond bringing souls to salvation. His ministry is just as much in providing guidance and assurance to the saved as it is to bringing the lost to salvation. But as long as you only see one side of that coin Rog, that's as long as you are going to be missing the big picture.

You know.. when I and Rojer and others say tongues has ceased.. and the other sign gifts for that matter. ...

This is not the WHOLE work of the Holy Spirit!

We still believe He...

Empowers, directs, encourages, rebukes, heals, seals, guides, comforts..etc..

Giving of the spiritual gifts.. is quite a small part of what the Holy Spirit did then.. especially with sign and ministry gifts..

The gifts of faith hope and love though .. are of course THE major part of what the Holy Spirit works in.

Also.. it's not like we don't believe God can't perform a miracle.. He can. All at least I would say is He has put down the tool of using the gift of miracles.

What were miracles for?

From Albert Garner, Bible Analysis page 85..

'It has been stated the purpose of New Testament miracles was to prove, to convince men that Jesus was divine and could save, forgive sin.'

and the scripture:

(Mark 2:10-11) But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

Albert Garner also points to Lazarus' rising from the dead:

'At the tomb of Lazarus, our Lord performed a miracle in calling Lazarus forth. He did not do it just to make Mary and Martha happy, but for the sake of the unbelievers who were standing by.'

The scripture:

John 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

So.. that is what miracles are for.

For the unbeliever.

It's what tongues are for also.. for the unbeliever.. 1Co_14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Now.. you could read a bible, or hear from a preacher and not need a miracle to be convinced of your need for salvation from Jesus.

There are very special purposes here.

No one is saying the Holy Spirit is no longer active today. But that some are saying He has put down some tools He used in the past and now can use the Bible to guide men without need for signs and wonders.

 

[presidente]

Well, I see in the Old Testament.. God would give the king of Israel.. didn't matter who it was.. His blessing as the king. He was annointing kings.

But this wasn't actually to do with giving someone eternal life. Saul was blessed this way in the Old Testament.. but there is no evidence in the bible that he was ever converted.. receiving eternal life.

Luke's presentations of being baptized with the Spirit, being filled with the Spirit, the Spirit coming on people, or the Spirit falling on people don't focus on salvation. Paul's writings discuss the role of the Spirit in relation to salvation. Luke records the words of Jesus, 'But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost hath come upon you...." He quotes Joel, which says that in the last days, the Lord will pour out His Spirit on all flesh, 'and your sons and daughters shall prophesy.'

There are numerous accounts of the Spirit coming upon certain people in the Bible. The one I was referring to earlier was in the book of Luke where the Spirit comes upon Zecharias after John was born and he prophesied about John the Baptist's future. This is similar to what we see in Acts because the Spirit was poured out on people and they spoke in tongues, or in Acts 19, spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Samson would be an example of someone who was empowered when the Spirit of the LORD came upon him as well. There were differences between the ministry of the Spirit back then and after Acts 2. Jesus told His disciples that the Spirit was with them, but would be in them. But Luke also speaks of the Spirit coming upon people and falling upon people, which is consistent with what we see in the Old Testament.

I wouldn't think of most OT kings as a good example of this. Some of the Old Testament kings were appointed in accordance with the direction of the Lord. The Judah kingdom had a chosen dynasty from David. Some of the northern kings were appointed prophetically, or at Jeroboam and Jehu, and four generations of Jehu were approved. The law commanded that the king be chosen by the Lord.

While they were anointed with oil, it does not actually say that the Spirit of God came upon them all. The Spirit of God did come upon Saul as we see in a couple of passages. Saul also had a problem with an evil spirit later on in his life.

 

[presidente]

Also.. it's not like we don't believe God can't perform a miracle.. He can. All at least I would say is He has put down the tool of using the gift of miracles.

Do you have a single shred of Biblical evidence for the idea that the Spirit does not give the gift of the working of miracles to members of the body of Christ as He wills. If the Bible says He does as He wills, and you say He doesn't, aren't you trying to take over the role of the Spirit and make decisions that the Bible leaves to the Spirit of God?

Who gives you the right to say that the Spirit will no longer give any individuals the gift of the working of miracles? Where has God revealed this? Can you show me in the Bible? If you don't have scripture for this, isn't this theology and teaching very presumptuous?

What were miracles for?

From Albert Garner, Bible Analysis page 85..

'It has been stated the purpose of New Testament miracles was to prove, to convince men that Jesus was divine and could save, forgive sin.'

Miracles were for many things. The plagues in Egypt let the Egyptians know that the LORD was the LORD. The splitting of the Red Sea served the purpose of allowing Israel to cross on dry ground. We also see that it was a testimony that was repeated to their children and recorded in scripture.

Would you really look at that account of the Red Sea and say that it was ONLY for one very narrow specific purpose? That would be rather foolish, especially if you could look through various references to it and see that it served multiple purposes, like the ones I mentioned above.

If miracles were to show that Jesus was divine and could forgive sins, then why did the Twelve do them. They weren't begotten of the Father in the same way and sense that Christ was.

If there miracles were to show that Christ was divine and had power to forgive sins, then why wouldn't believers today do miracles as signs of the same thing?

Again, it is silly and downright unbiblical to argue that all of Jesus miracles were ONLY to show that He was divine and could forgive sins. The feeding of the five thousand also served the purpose of feeding the five thousand. In the account, Jesus has compassion on the people. That was another reason for His miracle.

and the scripture:

(Mark 2:10-11) But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

Albert Garner also points to Lazarus' rising from the dead:

'At the tomb of Lazarus, our Lord performed a miracle in calling Lazarus forth. He did not do it just to make Mary and Martha happy, but for the sake of the unbelievers who were standing by.'

The scripture:

John 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

So.. that is what miracles are for.

For the unbeliever.

Again, this is a very narrow way of viewing things. Sure, we know that this miracle was done so that people might believe. Why did Jesus walk on water without anyone but His disciples present to watch, then? Why would Ananias and Saphira drop dead, probably with only believers there present to view it?

It's what tongues are for also.. for the unbeliever.. 1Co_14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

I was in a Bible quiz program as a teen and memorized I Corinthians as the first book I memorized. I don't know how many times I repeated that verse to learn to quote it, like the rest of the verses, and how long I repeated it afterwards when I quoted the chapter. But I never interpreted the verse the way you did. I think the cessationist lens really effects how some people read this verse.

In the verse we see that tongues is [a sign for them that believe not.] It doesn't mean that tongues are only exclusively for them that believe not. That would contradict the rest of the passage. Tongues, to them that believe not, serve as a sign. To say that tongues are ONLY a sign for them that believe not is to say that Paul was wrong earlier in the book when he lists tongues and interpretation among the gifts that profit the body. It would mean that Paul's argument before and after this verses, running throughout much of the chapter, that tongues should be interpreted to edify the assembly, is false.

No one is saying the Holy Spirit is no longer active today. But that some are saying He has put down some tools He used in the past and now can use the Bible to guide men without need for signs and wonders.

God did not have to give signs and wonders in the first century. If He had any obligation, it was only insofar that He had prophecies about such things to fulfill. They did not have any right to demand signs and wonders from God. God could forgive people in the first century without signs and wonders. The people said that John did no miracle, but Jesus pointed out that tax collectors and prostitutes repented at the teaching of John the Baptist.

So sure, God can guide through the Bible without signs and wonders. But the Bible does not teach that God stopped doing signs and wonders because we have the Bible. that's man made theology. The idea that miracles were needed to confirm the Bible and were no longer necessary is also man-made doctrine. It is not taught in scripture.

Cessationism seems to be based on reading 'only's into the text where they aren't there. You find a verse that indicates that a miracle served a certain purpose, and then extrapolate that miracles ONLY served that purpose or a certain other set of purposes, while ignoring other scriptures about other functions of miracles.

I can't say that cessationism is based on one approach. This relatively new belief of cessationism, which is not taught in scripture btw, is based on very different and sometimes contradictory arguments.

 

[RickyZ]

You know.. when I and Rojer and others say tongues has ceased.. and the other sign gifts for that matter. ...

This is not the WHOLE work of the Holy Spirit!

We still believe He...

Empowers, directs, encourages, rebukes, heals, seals, guides, comforts..etc..

Giving of the spiritual gifts.. is quite a small part of what the Holy Spirit did then.. especially with sign and ministry gifts..

The gifts of faith hope and love though .. are of course THE major part of what the Holy Spirit works in.

Also.. it's not like we don't believe God can't perform a miracle.. He can. All at least I would say is He has put down the tool of using the gift of miracles.

What were miracles for?

From Albert Garner, Bible Analysis page 85..

'It has been stated the purpose of New Testament miracles was to prove, to convince men that Jesus was divine and could save, forgive sin.'

and the scripture:

(Mark 2:10-11) But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

Albert Garner also points to Lazarus' rising from the dead:

'At the tomb of Lazarus, our Lord performed a miracle in calling Lazarus forth. He did not do it just to make Mary and Martha happy, but for the sake of the unbelievers who were standing by.'

The scripture:

John 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

So.. that is what miracles are for.

For the unbeliever.

It's what tongues are for also.. for the unbeliever.. 1Co_14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Now.. you could read a bible, or hear from a preacher and not need a miracle to be convinced of your need for salvation from Jesus.

There are very special purposes here.

No one is saying the Holy Spirit is no longer active today. But that some are saying He has put down some tools He used in the past and now can use the Bible to guide men without need for signs and wonders.

I understand that the gifts are not exclusive workings of the Holy Spirit. But it's funny you should use an analogy of tools as I have been thinking the very same thing. Sure, I could change a flat tire with a crescent wrench. But why would I chose to ignore the lug wrench that was created for that job? The crescent wrench will get the job done, for sure, but the lug wrench is more adept and efficient at it. So why take your most effective tools and throw them away?

And again, what you think the gifts are for will influence how you see them today. Were the gifts merely to lend credibility to the early founders? Were they only an aid to writing a book? The yes you'd think they ceased. But if the gift of healing was intended to counter the sickness that resulted from the fall, then you'd believe that as long as sickness exists so will the gift of healing.

Then there's the simple issue of do they work? Far far too many of us have seen the gifts in action bringing glory to God. Is that not their ultimate purpose? Why would God put aside tools that can be used to bring forth His Glory? Why would tools that have lost their purpose still function so efficiently? Sure, Roger et al could change their flat tires with that crescent wrench, I don't deny that. But Roger et al would find that maybe the job would go quicker and easier if they were to embrace and pick up the lug wrench that was designed and created to make that job more efficient.

And still again, there's the blaspheme thing. If the Holy Spirit works a gift in a believer and another person denies it based on the belief that the spirit no longer does such things, they are de facto attributing that work to the other side (meaning satan). And we all KNOW what comes out of attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to satan. It's not a pretty picture!

Cessationism is not only wrong, it depowers God and His Spirit and His followers and borders on blaspheme. Why any child of God would work to depower Him, and throw away their most effective tools, is beyond me. And why any child of God would look at the sickness in the world and say God is no longer interested in bringing healing to it is beyond me.

It's not about writing a book! It's about bringing God's perfection back to a fallen imperfect world. And the only one who benefits from denying that is satan.

 

[notuptome]

I don't think anyone is going to get your point unless you explain it. Are you trying to argue for hyperbole in this passage?

Given the many times this has been explained and still you do not get it indicates it's not a matter of intellect but will.

Elijah was a man subject to 'like passions as we are' and it did not rain for three and a half years until he said so. God answered his prayer. He also called down fire from heaven. The apostles were men as well with their own weaknesses. Yet Christ entrusted them with a mission on which they were to heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils, even before the day of Pentecost. Believers in Jerusalem and Corinth were frail human beings with human weaknesses, and yet the Spirit of God empowered believers to do miracles, to speak in tongues, and to prophesy.

Pretty bold to place yourself on the same level as Elijah. First problem to over come will be that you are not an Israelite.

The way you arrive at that conclusion is from interpreting a passage from Isaiah in a different way from how Paul interprets and applies the passage in I Corinthians 14.

Different from Paul or different from you? Tongues throughout the bible are a sign of impending judgment toward Israel. The church is not judged but Israel is yet to be judged. Christians are passed from judgment unto eternal life.

That would depend on the situation. Many, many people have experienced this sort of thing in modern times, btw. It is very possible to speak in real tongues without someone else understanding the language, too, according to the Bible, as I Corinthians 14 says, "No man understandeth him."

Just how is this profitable for Christ? You need to seek a better more biblical understanding.

It seems like you continually keep arguing the same points without actually reading the Bible and gaining understanding of what it says. Why don't you humble yourself, pray for the Lord to open your heart to understand the truth, and then actually carefully read and study the relevant passages, Acts 2, I Corinthians 12-14, and other passages?

The same would go for you. Without the proper foundation you cannot build any profitable thing.

Tongues, miracles and such as practiced in the Pentecostal church movement are nothing but husks. There is no meat in the practice as it is demonstrated in the modern Pentecostal church movement.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

You always make me laugh Rog. Of course the reason I laugh at you is because your ignorance really makes me want to cry.

If you were to remove your blinders, you'd see that God's power extends to waaaay more than just rescuing sinners. Like, leading, directing, and encouraging those who have already been saved. You know, God doesn't abandon us once we say I do. That is just the starting point.

That's what Paul meant when he talked about milk drinkers and meat eaters. And you my friend are parked at the dairy counter.

Now you make me laugh. Your doctrine is a million miles wide and not an inch deep. You've been out in the sun too long.

Jesus Christ came to this earth to seek and to save that which was lost. First to Israel then to the world.

Take a good look at Christ as a crucified Savior. Even resurrected He retained the wounds He suffered to rescue souls from eternal destruction.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Ok you guys are going to have to forgive me for derailing this for a minute while I make an honest attempt to open Rogers eyes.

The problem is Rog that you just don't see the big picture.

You mock the experience with the performer. But what is the big picture that arose from that? A brother did something in error, and was already being convicted by the Holy Spirit of his error. God says He will establish His word to us thru 2 or more witnesses. In this case, because someone was open to receiving a word of knowledge, and open to miraculous direction, this brother received confirming witness of the conviction he was already receiving from the Holy Spirit. What part of that do you find mockable Rog? What part of that is not a part of God's ministry Rog?

Magic show? I assume you're referring to the beach incident? What's the big picture view of that one? Here, a kid - who might not have been saved, or possibly was saved but having doubt - was brought by someone open to working a miracle to confess the power of God. Is that unbiblical Rog? I mean, assuming he was saved, having been saved was God then going to just let him wallow in doubt? That's what you are proposing Rog, that once saved God leaves us to wallow on our own. Or assume he was unsaved, this falls right into what you were proposing. Imagine an unsaved kid, thru the gifting of a miracle of God, being brought to confess God's power. How do you find any kind of issue with this Rog? Only by having tunnel vision and missing the big picture can you even begin to mock this event. And the Holy Spirit doesn't like being mocked Rog.

And this all goes back to what I said earlier in answer to the OP. You may not want to get into the debate but the cold hard fact is that how you see the place of the gifts today makes a huge difference in how you see what those gifts are. There's no getting around that. Other than putting on a pair of Roger's blinders.

Remove the blinders Roger. God's ministry extends beyond bringing souls to salvation. His ministry is just as much in providing guidance and assurance to the saved as it is to bringing the lost to salvation. But as long as you only see one side of that coin Rog, that's as long as you are going to be missing the big picture.

Sum total of this advice is throw out your bible and go with whatever you like. It really doesn't matter what you believe as long as you attach the name of Jesus to it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickyZ]

Given the many times this has been explained and still you do not get it indicates it's not a matter of intellect but will.


Yep it is. You show remarkable tenacity of will.


You need to seek a better more biblical understanding.


Yep you do.


Tongues, miracles and such as practiced in the Pentecostal church movement are nothing but husks. There is no meat in the practice as it is demonstrated in the modern Pentecostal church movement.


Wow Roger, I'm going to agree with you on this. As shown by many pentasmatic churches, there is little meat in the circus acts so many of these churches take part in



For the cause of Christ

Does that cause include throwing out the legitimate uses, out of fear of the illegitimate uses? (Iow, does the cause of Christ benefit from throwing out the baby with the bathwater?)


Roger

You see illegitimate uses and you are right in calling them out as the fakes that they are. But you let them blind you to the legitimate uses that do in fact glorify God.

Learn to separate the wheat from the chaff. You're halfway there. Yield your will to a fuller understanding and you will see your faith move literal mountains. (I still can't believe you said that you will never move mountains by faith, in DIRECT opposition to the word of God. Where is the cause of Christ in directly countering the word of God???).

 

[RickyZ]

Ok you guys are going to have to forgive me for derailing this for a minute while I make an honest attempt to open Rogers eyes.

The problem is Rog that you just don't see the big picture.

You mock the experience with the performer. But what is the big picture that arose from that? A brother did something in error, and was already being convicted by the Holy Spirit of his error. God says He will establish His word to us thru 2 or more witnesses. In this case, because someone was open to receiving a word of knowledge, and open to miraculous direction, this brother received confirming witness of the conviction he was already receiving from the Holy Spirit. What part of that do you find mockable Rog? What part of that is not a part of God's ministry Rog?

Magic show? I assume you're referring to the beach incident? What's the big picture view of that one? Here, a kid - who might not have been saved, or possibly was saved but having doubt - was brought by someone open to working a miracle to confess the power of God. Is that unbiblical Rog? I mean, assuming he was saved, having been saved was God then going to just let him wallow in doubt? That's what you are proposing Rog, that once saved God leaves us to wallow on our own. Or assume he was unsaved, this falls right into what you were proposing. Imagine an unsaved kid, thru the gifting of a miracle of God, being brought to confess God's power. How do you find any kind of issue with this Rog? Only by having tunnel vision and missing the big picture can you even begin to mock this event. And the Holy Spirit doesn't like being mocked Rog.

And this all goes back to what I said earlier in answer to the OP. You may not want to get into the debate but the cold hard fact is that how you see the place of the gifts today makes a huge difference in how you see what those gifts are. There's no getting around that. Other than putting on a pair of Roger's blinders.

Remove the blinders Roger. God's ministry extends beyond bringing souls to salvation. His ministry is just as much in providing guidance and assurance to the saved as it is to bringing the lost to salvation. But as long as you only see one side of that coin Rog, that's as long as you are going to be missing the big picture.

Sum total of this advice is throw out your bible and go with whatever you like. It really doesn't matter what you believe as long as you attach the name of Jesus to it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Really Roger?

A word of knowledge and direction that served to confirm another's conviction of error is not Biblical?

A miracle act that confirms God's power to a child is not Biblical?

Your willful ignorance just continues to astound me.