what the word "grace" will never alter.

[eternally-gratefull]

He can speak for himself but I really don't think he's saying water baptism literally pays the price for salvation.

There are things to be done to be saved that are not you trying to buy your salvation. It depends on the sermon you are hearing. If the sermon you hear says get in the water and your sins will be forgiven then that's what you have to do or you're not going to receive salvation.

If a person is told a legitimate, Biblical way of how to get saved and yet they refuse to do it. That person will not receive salvation. And it has nothing to do with water being the payment that buys salvation. It has everything to do with that person not really believing or wanting what he heard.

DJ can tell us plainly if he means water baptism literally pays the required price for salvation.

if one says, This work must be done in order to be saved.

They are using that work as a means to pay for salvation.

They can twist it however they want, but math always wins.

When Paul says it is not by works of righteousness by which we were saved, but by his mercy, because GOD washed us and gave us new life. he means it,

Water baptism is a work of righteousness, Thus it is not involved, period. end of story.

 

[mailmandan]

He can speak for himself but I really don't think he's saying water baptism literally pays the price for salvation.

There are things to be done to be saved that are not you trying to buy your salvation. It depends on the sermon you are hearing. If the sermon you hear says get in the water and your sins will be forgiven then that's what you have to do or you're not going to receive salvation.

If a person is told a legitimate, Biblical way of how to get saved and yet they refuse to do it. That person will not receive salvation. And it has nothing to do with water being the payment that buys salvation. It has everything to do with that person not really believing or wanting what he heard.

DJ can tell us plainly if he means water baptism literally pays the required price for salvation.

Who said anything about water baptism “paying the price” for salvation or “buying our salvation?” We are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24). JESUS paid the price for our salvation. What DJ2 is saying is that we must be water baptized in order to be saved—saved through faith + the work of water baptism.

 

[Ralph-]

9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."-Romans 10:9-10


Paul says to do something to be saved. According to most people in the church today he is guilty of preaching a works gospel. Obviously, doing something to be saved doesn't have to automatically mean 'trying to earn your salvation'. Or that 'faith + doing something' is not Biblical.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."-Romans 10:9-10


Paul says to do something to be saved. According to most people in the church today he is guilty of preaching a works gospel. Obviously, doing something to be saved doesn't have to automatically mean 'trying to earn your salvation'.

No your wrong,

are you going to tell me the tax collector who got on his knees and cried out to God to save him was doing a work to earn his salvation. and trying to compare that with people who preach we must do good works, we must be baptised in water. we must do all these things, and then maybe we will be saved?

Jesus said it is the work of God we believe, It is not our work, Faith is not things we boast of unless it is faith in our own deeds, our own actions, our own accomplishments, our own performance. Then it goes from boasting in christ, to boasting in self (as the pharisee did when he praised God he did all his works, and was not like the sinner)

 

[Ralph-]

if one says, This work must be done in order to be saved.

They are using that work as a means to pay for salvation.

They can twist it however they want, but math always wins.

When Paul says it is not by works of righteousness by which we were saved, but by his mercy, because GOD washed us and gave us new life. he means it,

Water baptism is a work of righteousness, Thus it is not involved, period. end of story.

Don't tell us. Tell Peter and Paul.

Your problem is you instantly think adding 'dong something' onto the call to the gospel can only mean 'earning your salvation'. But Peter and Paul both included 'doing something' in their gospel message, yet you say they can only be "using that work as a means to pay for salvation....end of story".

 

[Ralph-]

Just because the power of salvation is in the blood itself doesn't mean you don't do something in salvation. Peter and Paul both prove that by adding a 'to do' onto their gospel messages. Obviously, no one is going to argue that they were teaching works salvation, yet they tell their audiences to do something to get saved.

Open your minds up church. Doing something to get saved does not have to automatically equate to one earning their salvation. If it does then Paul and Peter both taught a works gospel.

 

[finaldesire]

Grace at no point in time changes this truth, dont be fooled.

John 5 " For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. ( john 6:63)22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: ( John 12:48-50) 23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.


24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; ( john 6:68)27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."


theres no doctrine in the scriptures that change this, and the idea that our deeds arent what matters is really a fallacy heres the proof.

Peter.

acts 10 " And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. "


Paul.....acts 17 " And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

Paul ....romans 2 " 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God."

Paul....2 corinthians 5:10 " For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."


Peter.....1 peter 4 " For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"


Paul .... 2 thess 1 " 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power"



Paul.....galatians 5 " Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."


hebrews 4 " For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."

john ....revelation 20 " And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."



Paul again....ephesians 5 " Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.


3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7Be not ye therefore partakers with them."


Im all for saying " were saved by Grace" when that verse then makes you decline to believe the rest of doctrine that requires of you, its not the grace of God all of the above is simply a true repetetive consistant unchanging doctrine, and Grace saves us when we accept the Grace Jesus gives because the above is true, Grace saves this way

titus 2 " For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."


salvation comes by Gods grace because it comes through Jesus and His word that teaches the gospel. to accept Grace it has to come through Jesus and it cannot omit His words. its a fallacy when a term we take from scripture , define it and then disregard Gods Word, and spread some different offer of salvation. we do Have every One of us to Face Jesus and Give our account to Him, we will every One be Judged according to Our deeds. Grace doesnt change that, it changes us through repentance and real faith that acts. Jesus says clearly His eternal Judgement, is His gospel.

I thought every christian Knew this, But there really is no other salvation apart from what Jesus offered according to His word. that will never change because thats where Grace exists. God bless you. trust in Gods mercy, but believe Gods word of warning, it is wisdom to do so.

I have no idea what motivates Christians to write like this, a wall of scripture and still I do not know about the person who's writing.

 

[phil36]

Don't tell us. Tell Peter and Paul.

Your problem is you instantly think adding 'dong something' onto the call to the gospel can only mean 'earning your salvation'. But Peter and Paul both included 'doing something' in their gospel message, yet you say they can only be "using that work as a means to pay for salvation....end of story".

Hi Ralph,

I think you have he gospel wrong if you think it is for men to 'add' something to the gospel call.. that is works. Paul never taught a grace like that (you seem to think he did)!

 

[Ralph-]

What DJ2 is saying is that we must be water baptized in order to be saved—saved through faith + the work of water baptism.

Peter said that, not DJ2. But for some reason when Peter says it, it's okay and that's not a 'faith + work' works gospel. But if someone else says it, it is that, and can be nothing else.

Expand your thinking church. Get out of your doctrinal boxes.

 

[Ralph-]

Hi Ralph,

I think you have he gospel wrong if you think it is for men to 'add' something to the gospel call.. that is works. Paul never taught a grace like that (you seem to think he did)!

I do not think works earn salvation.

Listen carefully to what I'm saying. Paul and Peter both said to do something to be saved. Yet we know they did not mean what you do earns salvation. But if someone else says what they said it can be nothing but you saying it earns salvation.

 

[phil36]

I do not think works earn salvation.

Listen carefully to what I'm saying. Paul and Peter both said to do something to be saved. Yet we know they did not mean what you do earns salvation. But if someone else says what they said it can be nothing but you saying it earns salvation.

I read carefully what you said:

Yes they both said believe..but they did not add to the gospel call. the 'believe' isn't a work of 'self righteousness' that adding something to the gospel brings. Being baptized isn't a work either, neither does it save anyone.. Baptism isn't a deed of self righteousness. So when Peter and Paul say to do something they are not adding works or other requirements to be saved.

When men add something as a requirement to be saved then its adding works. I mean its simple christian ABC's here.

And just so there is no doubt about what your wrote here it is:

Your problem is you instantly think adding 'dong something' onto the call to the gospel can only mean 'earning your salvation'.

Then you go on to tell us Peter and Paul added something to the gospel...really?

 

[UnderGrace]

So cute!! Thanks, I know there is a keyboard command to get e with accents but could not remember it.

touché

.​

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Don't tell us. Tell Peter and Paul.

Your problem is you instantly think adding 'dong something' onto the call to the gospel can only mean 'earning your salvation'. But Peter and Paul both included 'doing something' in their gospel message, yet you say they can only be "using that work as a means to pay for salvation....end of story".

Peter and paul told me.

They both said works were a result of salvation, Not a means to earn or gain salvation. Period.

By grace through faith not works, period.

next.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Just because the power of salvation is in the blood itself doesn't mean you don't do something in salvation. Peter and Paul both prove that by adding a 'to do' onto their gospel messages. Obviously, no one is going to argue that they were teaching works salvation, yet they tell their audiences to do something to get saved.

Open your minds up church. Doing something to get saved does not have to automatically equate to one earning their salvation. If it does then Paul and Peter both taught a works gospel.

there are two trains of thought.

1. I must do these works, or I will lose salvation, Works are a part of my salvation and i must do them
2. Works are a byproduct of faith, and an outpouring of our love for God, who first loved us. they are a product of our new creation (eph 2: 10) they are a byproduct of faith.

which one are you? I am number 2. as are all my friends..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Peter said that, not DJ2. But for some reason when Peter says it, it's okay and that's not a 'faith + work' works gospel. But if someone else says it, it is that, and can be nothing else.

Expand your thinking church. Get out of your doctrinal boxes.

Peter did not say it Peter would not contradict Jesus or the rest of the apostles.

stop listening to men, and try listening to God for once.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do not think works earn salvation.

Listen carefully to what I'm saying. Paul and Peter both said to do something to be saved. Yet we know they did not mean what you do earns salvation. But if someone else says what they said it can be nothing but you saying it earns salvation.

will you finally give us an answer?
do you think salvation must be maintained by works, or salvation can be lost?

you say you do not believe in works based gospel. can you prove it by answering that one question?

 

[loveme1]

I was lost and far from God - a sinner in great and desparate need of help!

I came to Christ just as I was - naked, vile, and helpless . . . as I came to Him His grace enveloped me and empowered me: He gave me the gift of faith and I believed in Him. I became a new creature in Christ Jesus.

But that initial saving grace was not all - I continue to need His grace every day - I continue to believe and lean on my Redeemer! Hallelujah! Now not only is my sin forgiven, but God's Spirit in me gives the power to live above sin and overcome sin! Hallelujah. Slowly I am becoming more and more like Christ and I being make into His workmanship and into His image.

The word grace never alters:
(1) That I ongoingly need God's grace, power, and forgiveness
(2) That never will I be able to do good deeds without Him
(3) That God loves me
(4) That outside of God's ongoing grace in my life I would never make heaven

Grace, grace, oh, twas Grace that saved a sinner like me . . .

Wonderful.. thank you for sharing.

 

[Chester]

Originally Posted by DJ2

Since water baptism is for the forgiveness of sins and salvation is based on the forgiveness of sins, how can it not be necessary for salvation?​

He can speak for himself but I really don't think he's saying water baptism literally pays the price for salvation.

There are things to be done to be saved that are not you trying to buy your salvation. It depends on the sermon you are hearing. If the sermon you hear says get in the water and your sins will be forgiven then that's what you have to do or you're not going to receive salvation.

If a person is told a legitimate, Biblical way of how to get saved and yet they refuse to do it. That person will not receive salvation. And it has nothing to do with water being the payment that buys salvation. It has everything to do with that person not really believing or wanting what he heard.

DJ can tell us plainly if he means water baptism literally pays the required price for salvation.

Agreed that DJ should speak for himself, but the words of the quote indicate that he thinks baptism is necessary for salvation.

 

[Chester]

there are two trains of thought.

1. I must do these works, or I will lose salvation, Works are a part of my salvation and i must do them
2. Works are a byproduct of faith, and an outpouring of our love for God, who first loved us. they are a product of our new creation (eph 2: 10) they are a byproduct of faith.

which one are you? I am number 2. as are all my friends..

I am definitely not in train of thought # 1, but neither do I like your wording for train of thought number 2.

I don't like that works are a "byproduct" of faith. Maybe it is just my connotation of the word. To me a byproduct is the stinky stuff left over after I butchered a cow, etc. I would say works are a living real part of my Christian life - they are the reality of God working in me to make me into "his workmanship".

 

[loveme1]

I am definitely not in train of thought # 1, but neither do I like your wording for train of thought number 2.

I don't like that works are a "byproduct" of faith. Maybe it is just my connotation of the word. To me a byproduct is the stinky stuff left over after I butchered a cow, etc. I would say works are a living real part of my Christian life - they are the reality of God working in me to make me into "his workmanship".

Sounds like you are on a bus..