When does the rapture occur?
- Thread starter Elin
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That is based on your private and uncertain interpretation of the riddle.
On what basis do you say it is not the Final Judgment when Jesus comes at the end of time,
which will take as long as it takes to do the job.
On what basis do you say it is not the Final Judgment when Jesus comes at the end of time,
which will take as long as it takes to do the job.
I am asking you HOW LONG those who will sit on their thrones (Mat 19:28, luke 22:30) judged the twelve tribes of Israel.
you reject a period of a 1000 years but you cannot tell how long...
now you are saying and I quote "which will take as long as it takes to do the job"...again could it be a 1000 years?
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Just want to know how Satan was bound?
Because during Paul's days he wrote these about Satan
1, Satan presence on the destruction of the flesh/ thorn in the flesh (1 cor 5:5, 2 Cor 12:7)
2. Satan temptation of the weak (1 Cor 7:5, 2Cor 2:11, 1 Pet 5:8)
3. Satan hindering the gospel :
1Th_2:18Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
Satan was and is clearly not bound....
Because during Paul's days he wrote these about Satan
1, Satan presence on the destruction of the flesh/ thorn in the flesh (1 cor 5:5, 2 Cor 12:7)
2. Satan temptation of the weak (1 Cor 7:5, 2Cor 2:11, 1 Pet 5:8)
3. Satan hindering the gospel :
1Th_2:18Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
Satan was and is clearly not bound....
P.S.:
See 2Th 2:5-8; 2Pe 2:4.
The NT does not tell us how.
See 2Th 2:5-8; 2Pe 2:4.
Please address the certain and unequivocal NT teaching in the OP which shows Jesus' second coming is at the end of time when he judges the world.
See 2Th 2:5-8; 2Pe 2:4.
The NT does not tell us how.
See 2Th 2:5-8; 2Pe 2:4.
Please address the certain and unequivocal NT teaching in the OP which shows Jesus' second coming is at the end of time when he judges the world.
See 2Th 2:5-8; 2Pe 2:4.
ok lets look at it
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:
-iniquity at work at this time
only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
-someone is letting iniquity hapen, but hes taken away in future
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
-he is revieled but has been here since this was wrighten
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
- when Christ comes
ok lets look at it
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:
-iniquity at work at this time
only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
-someone is letting iniquity hapen, but hes taken away in future
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
-he is revieled but has been here since this was wrighten
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
- when Christ comes
Now to deal with 2 pet 2:4
2Pe 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
When Did God cast the angels that sinned down to hell and chains them in darkness?
Coz clearly Jesus was still conversing with Satan when He was tempted while in the wilderness?
Mat 4:10 Then Jesus told him, "Go away, Satan! Because it is written, 'You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.'"
Elin said:
Please address the certain and unequivocal NT teaching in the OP which shows Jesus' second coming is at the end of time when he judges the world.
You have not addressed Ac 3:21, which states that Jesus does not appear until the end of time.
You have not addressed Heb 9:27-28, that Christ comes only once more, at the end of time.
You have not addressed 2Th 1:6-10 which locates the rapture at the Final Judgment at the end of time.
You have not addressed 2Th 2:1-8 which locates the rapture at the Final Judgment at the end of time.
You have not addressed 1Pe 1:5, 13, where in the latter Peter states that
there is no appearing of Jesus before he comes to restore all things at the end of time,
and in the former, that our coming salvation will be given to us when
Jesus is revealed at the end of time.
And then there's Ro 8:19-21, which links the resurrection with the liberation of creation from decay with the rapture,
locating them all at the end of time with creation's liberation.
You have not addressed the certain and unequivocal NT teaching that
the rapture occurs at the end of time with the resurrection and the liberation of the earth from decay.
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Elin said:
watcher2013 said:
Just want to know how Satan was bound?
The NT does not tell us how.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:
-iniquity at work at this time.
only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
-someone is letting iniquity hapen, but hes taken away in future
-someone is letting iniquity hapen, but hes taken away in future
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
-he is revieled but has been here since this was wrighten
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
when Christ comes
-he is revieled but has been here since this was wrighten
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
when Christ comes
the man of lawlessness will be revealed, whom Jesus will destroy at the second coming
for the resurrection, rapture, judgment and restoration of all things at the end of time.
I am not saying that it is not the Final judgement....(where did you get that idea?)
I am asking you HOW LONG those who will sit on their thrones (Mat 19:28, luke 22:30) judged the twelve tribes of Israel.
you reject a period of a 1000 years but you cannot tell how long...
now you are saying and I quote "which will take as long as it takes to do the job"...again could it be a 1000 years?
I am asking you HOW LONG those who will sit on their thrones (Mat 19:28, luke 22:30) judged the twelve tribes of Israel.
you reject a period of a 1000 years but you cannot tell how long...
now you are saying and I quote "which will take as long as it takes to do the job"...again could it be a 1000 years?
So we've been on the throne with him for over two millennia.
How long it will take to do the job of judging with Christ is not answered in certain and unequivocal NT teaching.
Nor do the NT writers inform us of a 1000-year temporal period after the second coming.
I cannot imagine the NT writers failing to tell us of something so eschatologically important.
And I certainly cannot imagine that would be due to their not even knowing about it.
Nor does the Apostles' Creed, nor any other creed of the early church, allow for such an interval.
So I find no authorization from apostolic teaching for a 1000-year temporal period
after the second coming.
Divine authorization is important, because God's response to what is not authorized
is seen in his response to Uzzah when he tried to keep the Ark from tipping over.
Paul calls "will worship" the worshipping of God with anything other than what God authorizes.
So I won't be agreeing with what is not specifically authorized in certain NT teaching.
It would be no more than an addition to NT teaching from our own private and uncertain interpretation
of prophetic riddles.
Short answer: I would say we cannot say that, simply because it is not authorized by apostolic teaching.
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First of all, believers are reigning with Christ now on his throne.
So we've been on the throne with him for over two millennia.
How long it will take to do the job of judging with Christ is not answered in certain and unequivocal NT teaching.
Nor do the NT writers inform us of a 1000-year temporal period after the second coming.
I cannot imagine the NT writers failing to tell us of something so eschatologically important.
And I certainly cannot imagine that would be due to their not even knowing about it.
Nor does the Apostles' Creed, nor any other creed of the early church, allow for such an interval.
So I find no authorization from apostolic teaching for a 1000-year temporal period
after the second coming.
Divine authorization is important, because God's response to what is not authorized
is seen in his response to Uzzah when he tried to keep the Ark from tipping over.
Paul calls "will worship" the worshipping of God with anything other than what God authorizes.
So I won't be agreeing with what is not specifically authorized in certain NT teaching.
It would be no more than an addition to NT teaching from our own private and uncertain interpretation
of prophetic riddles.
Short answer: I would say we cannot say that, simply because it is not authorized by apostolic teaching.
So we've been on the throne with him for over two millennia.
How long it will take to do the job of judging with Christ is not answered in certain and unequivocal NT teaching.
Nor do the NT writers inform us of a 1000-year temporal period after the second coming.
I cannot imagine the NT writers failing to tell us of something so eschatologically important.
And I certainly cannot imagine that would be due to their not even knowing about it.
Nor does the Apostles' Creed, nor any other creed of the early church, allow for such an interval.
So I find no authorization from apostolic teaching for a 1000-year temporal period
after the second coming.
Divine authorization is important, because God's response to what is not authorized
is seen in his response to Uzzah when he tried to keep the Ark from tipping over.
Paul calls "will worship" the worshipping of God with anything other than what God authorizes.
So I won't be agreeing with what is not specifically authorized in certain NT teaching.
It would be no more than an addition to NT teaching from our own private and uncertain interpretation
of prophetic riddles.
Short answer: I would say we cannot say that, simply because it is not authorized by apostolic teaching.
Failed dodge. . .
I do agree on some of your argument so there is no need to discussed them..
You have not addressed Ac 3:21, which states that Jesus does not appear until the end of time.
Where it says that the times of restitution is the end of time? (only from your private interpretation)
Can you please refer which prophet spoke of this?
You have not addressed Heb 9:27-28, that Christ comes only once more, at the end of time.
It did say that to those who look for him Jesus will appear the second time unto salvation.
You have not addressed 2Th 1:6-10 which locates the rapture at the Final Judgment at the end of time.
These particular verse deals with the salvation of those who believed and God vengeance to unbelievers when Jesus appears…
You have not addressed 2Th 2:1-8 which locates the rapture at the Final Judgment at the end of time.
You have not addressed 1Pe 1:5, 13, where in the latter Peter states that
there is no appearing of Jesus before he comes to restore all things at the end of time,
and in the former, that our coming salvation will be given to us when
Jesus is revealed at the end of time.
there is no appearing of Jesus before he comes to restore all things at the end of time,
and in the former, that our coming salvation will be given to us when
Jesus is revealed at the end of time.
1Pe 1:20 On the one hand, he was foreknown before the creation of the world, but on the other hand, he was revealed at the end of time for your sake.
This is related to the verses in Acts 3:21
And then there's Ro 8:19-21, which links the resurrection with the liberation of creation from decay with the rapture,
locating them all at the end of time with creation's liberation.
You have not addressed the certain and unequivocal NT teaching that
the rapture occurs at the end of time with the resurrection and the liberation of the earth from decay.
locating them all at the end of time with creation's liberation.
You have not addressed the certain and unequivocal NT teaching that
the rapture occurs at the end of time with the resurrection and the liberation of the earth from decay.
OF all the verses you gave...you only showed your private interpretations...
There is no need to dodge your argument...I am just trying to get your response to one topic then move on to the next.
I do agree on some of your argument so there is no need to discussed them..
Act 3:21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began..
Where it says that the times of restitution is the end of time? (only from your private interpretation)
Can you please refer which prophet spoke of this?
I do agree on some of your argument so there is no need to discussed them..
Act 3:21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began..
Where it says that the times of restitution is the end of time? (only from your private interpretation)
Can you please refer which prophet spoke of this?
Please review the OP for a fuller explanation of all of them, and address the full explanation.
First of all, believers are reigning with Christ now on his throne.
So we've been on the throne with him for over two millennia.
So we've been on the throne with him for over two millennia.
Luk 22:30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit down on thrones to govern the twelve tribes of Israel."
Did Jesus drink with you?
Luk_22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
How long it will take to do the job of judging with Christ is not answered in certain and unequivocal NT teaching.
Mat 19:28 Jesus told them, "I tell you with certainty, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne in the renewed creation, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, governing the twelve tribes of Israel.
Nor do the NT writers inform us of a 1000-year temporal period after the second coming.
I cannot imagine the NT writers failing to tell us of something so eschatologically important.
And I certainly cannot imagine that would be due to their not even knowing about it.
Nor does the Apostles' Creed, nor any other creed of the early church, allow for such an interval.
So I find no authorization from apostolic teaching for a 1000-year temporal period
after the second coming.
Divine authorization is important, because God's response to what is not authorized
is seen in his response to Uzzah when he tried to keep the Ark from tipping over.
Paul calls "will worship" the worshipping of God with anything other than what God authorizes.
So I won't be agreeing with what is not specifically authorized in certain NT teaching.
It would be no more than an addition to NT teaching from our own private and uncertain interpretation
of prophetic riddles.
Short answer: I would say we cannot say that, simply because it is not authorized by apostolic teaching.
I cannot imagine the NT writers failing to tell us of something so eschatologically important.
And I certainly cannot imagine that would be due to their not even knowing about it.
Nor does the Apostles' Creed, nor any other creed of the early church, allow for such an interval.
So I find no authorization from apostolic teaching for a 1000-year temporal period
after the second coming.
Divine authorization is important, because God's response to what is not authorized
is seen in his response to Uzzah when he tried to keep the Ark from tipping over.
Paul calls "will worship" the worshipping of God with anything other than what God authorizes.
So I won't be agreeing with what is not specifically authorized in certain NT teaching.
It would be no more than an addition to NT teaching from our own private and uncertain interpretation
of prophetic riddles.
Short answer: I would say we cannot say that, simply because it is not authorized by apostolic teaching.
Elin,
You are failing to see that a day until the Lord is as 1,000 years to us. Thus, the Day of the Lord can last 1,000 years. Too many things happen on the Day of the Lord for it to be 1 literal earth day. As for your other passages, there are reasonable explanations for them which allows for a millennium.
It does not say "until the end of time." I'm a NKJV person but let's look at the KJV since it is the most reliable translation. "End of time" is not found in this passage!!
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted , that your sins may be blotted out , when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
I read this as saying that Jesus is to remain in heaven until the "times of restitution of all things." I also read this to mean that the "times of refreshing will come from the Lord."
Restitution can mean PAYBACK or it can mean restore. We know Christ avenges and we know He restores earth to a state it once had. Earth was never in the eternal state. We have no evidence to suggest earth as created before sin was the same as what the new heaven on earth will be. Therefore, the only major change earth experienced was the Great Flood where lifespans dramatically reduced and the landscape of the continents was flatter and likely more together. We have scripture to support increasing lifespans and islands and mountains moving around the time Christ appears. Thus this passage from Acts is NOT conclusive to your position.
I assume you intended to include verse 26 because that is the only verse in this passage that discusses the end of the world - not time?
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die , but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
The first question I would have is "when did Christ appear to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself?" Wasn't it some 2,000 years ago?
Or, the "End of the world" could easily mean "end of the world as we know it." The world is going to physically change dramatically. Life spans will increase. Wild animals will be tamed (a reference to conditions from the Garden of Eden), mountains and islands will move.
Many theorize that the earth's atmosphere was enclosed by a water or ice layer keeping out most of the sun's harmful UV rays which would also reduce interstellar radiation and cosmic rays. This layer was removed by the flood and actually helped the Flood occur. While I am not a scientist, I do see the rationale here for this layer to be restored when Christ returns.
Verse 27 totally refutes any Pre-Trib Rapture as all men are to die once. This verse is one sentence along with verse 28 which contains the Return of Christ. Therefore, even once Christ returns, men still need to die once before judgment. Therefore Christ's return does NOT mark the end of dying (Which Rev 14 agrees with).
You are failing to see that a day until the Lord is as 1,000 years to us. Thus, the Day of the Lord can last 1,000 years. Too many things happen on the Day of the Lord for it to be 1 literal earth day. As for your other passages, there are reasonable explanations for them which allows for a millennium.
You have not addressed Ac 3:21, which states that Jesus does not appear until the end of time.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted , that your sins may be blotted out , when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
I read this as saying that Jesus is to remain in heaven until the "times of restitution of all things." I also read this to mean that the "times of refreshing will come from the Lord."
Restitution can mean PAYBACK or it can mean restore. We know Christ avenges and we know He restores earth to a state it once had. Earth was never in the eternal state. We have no evidence to suggest earth as created before sin was the same as what the new heaven on earth will be. Therefore, the only major change earth experienced was the Great Flood where lifespans dramatically reduced and the landscape of the continents was flatter and likely more together. We have scripture to support increasing lifespans and islands and mountains moving around the time Christ appears. Thus this passage from Acts is NOT conclusive to your position.
You have not addressed Heb 9:27-28, that Christ comes only once more, at the end of time.
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die , but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
The first question I would have is "when did Christ appear to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself?" Wasn't it some 2,000 years ago?
Or, the "End of the world" could easily mean "end of the world as we know it." The world is going to physically change dramatically. Life spans will increase. Wild animals will be tamed (a reference to conditions from the Garden of Eden), mountains and islands will move.
Many theorize that the earth's atmosphere was enclosed by a water or ice layer keeping out most of the sun's harmful UV rays which would also reduce interstellar radiation and cosmic rays. This layer was removed by the flood and actually helped the Flood occur. While I am not a scientist, I do see the rationale here for this layer to be restored when Christ returns.
Verse 27 totally refutes any Pre-Trib Rapture as all men are to die once. This verse is one sentence along with verse 28 which contains the Return of Christ. Therefore, even once Christ returns, men still need to die once before judgment. Therefore Christ's return does NOT mark the end of dying (Which Rev 14 agrees with).
Elin said:
First of all, believers are reigning with Christ now on his throne.
So we've been on the throne with him for over two millennia.
How long it will take to do the job of judging with Christ is not answered in certain and unequivocal NT teaching.
Nor do the NT writers inform us of a 1000-year temporal period after the second coming.
I cannot imagine the NT writers failing to tell us of something so eschatologically important.
And I certainly cannot imagine that would be due to their not even knowing about it.
Nor does the Apostles' Creed, nor any other creed of the early church, allow for such an interval.
So I find no authorization from apostolic teaching for a 1000-year temporal period
after the second coming.
Divine authorization is important, because God's response to what is not authorized
is seen in his response to Uzzah when he tried to keep the Ark from tipping over.
Paul calls "will worship" the worshipping of God with anything other than what God authorizes.
So I won't be agreeing with what is not specifically authorized in certain NT teaching.
It would be no more than an addition to NT teaching from our own private and uncertain interpretation
of prophetic riddles.
Short answer: I would say we cannot say that, simply because it is not authorized by apostolic teaching.
So we've been on the throne with him for over two millennia.
How long it will take to do the job of judging with Christ is not answered in certain and unequivocal NT teaching.
Nor do the NT writers inform us of a 1000-year temporal period after the second coming.
I cannot imagine the NT writers failing to tell us of something so eschatologically important.
And I certainly cannot imagine that would be due to their not even knowing about it.
Nor does the Apostles' Creed, nor any other creed of the early church, allow for such an interval.
So I find no authorization from apostolic teaching for a 1000-year temporal period
after the second coming.
Divine authorization is important, because God's response to what is not authorized
is seen in his response to Uzzah when he tried to keep the Ark from tipping over.
Paul calls "will worship" the worshipping of God with anything other than what God authorizes.
So I won't be agreeing with what is not specifically authorized in certain NT teaching.
It would be no more than an addition to NT teaching from our own private and uncertain interpretation
of prophetic riddles.
Short answer: I would say we cannot say that, simply because it is not authorized by apostolic teaching.
God is clear in the case of Uzzah regarding what is not authorized.
A warning to the wise is sufficient.
I have my warning.
I reject it on the above grounds of lacking apostolic authorization in certain NT teaching.
God is clear in the case of Uzzah regarding what is not authorized.
A warning to the wise is sufficient.
I have my warning.
God is clear in the case of Uzzah regarding what is not authorized.
A warning to the wise is sufficient.
I have my warning.
Jesus must Reign "until..."
1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Jesus said He will reign in the regeneration and those who followed him shall govern the twelve tribes of Israel.
Mat 19:28 Jesus told them, "I tell you with certainty, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne in the renewed creation, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, governing the twelve tribes of Israel.
Do you reject also that Jesus shall reign and those who followed him shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel in the regeneration? (that is after he comes)
Paul said:
Jesus must Reign "until..."
1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Jesus said He will reign in the regeneration and those who followed him shall govern the twelve tribes of Israel.
Mat 19:28 Jesus told them, "I tell you with certainty, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne in the renewed creation, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, governing the twelve tribes of Israel.
Do you reject also that Jesus shall reign and those who followed him shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel in the regeneration? (that is after he comes)
Jesus must Reign "until..."
1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Jesus said He will reign in the regeneration and those who followed him shall govern the twelve tribes of Israel.
Mat 19:28 Jesus told them, "I tell you with certainty, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne in the renewed creation, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, governing the twelve tribes of Israel.
Do you reject also that Jesus shall reign and those who followed him shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel in the regeneration? (that is after he comes)
Address it.