When does the rapture occur?

[PlainWord]

You have not addressed 2Th 1:6-10 which locates the rapture at the Final Judgment at the end of time.

Read it closely, there is no rapture here. There is revenge and the promise to be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. This promise is futuristic.

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

Notice that the "rest" happens here when the Lord is revealed. This scene is very reminiscent of the 5th seal where the martyrs are crying out for vengeance. When they get their vengeance, they can rest as they were told to "rest awhile longer."

Nothing says this is the end. This is when Christ returns.

 

[watcher2013]

The Biblical meaning of "the regeneration of all things" is presented in the OP.

Address it.

this is addressing it...you just need to response to the above question...

 

[Elin]

Read it closely, there is no rapture here.

How does Jesus relieve the saints at his coming?

Address the full explanation of the OP.

 

[PlainWord]

You have not addressed 1Pe 1:5, 13, where in the latter Peter states that
there is no appearing of Jesus before he comes to restore all things at the end of time,
and in the former, that our coming salvation will be given to us when
Jesus is revealed at the end of time.

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober , and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

It actually says we are kept by the POWER OF GOD, through faith which is revealed in the last time. The judgment is at the end so we must wait until the end for salvation. This is not very conclusive to support your view and it certainly does not rule out Christ reigning and doing things for 1,000 years.

 

[PlainWord]

And then there's Ro 8:19-21, which links the resurrection with the liberation of creation from decay with the rapture,
locating them all at the end of time with creation's liberation.

Final Eternal State Heaven is NOT restoration. Restoration is putting earth back the way it was Pre-Flood. Creation groans for it.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

Creation is NOT groaning to be burned up and dissolved which happens at the very end. Creation is looking to be restored. This restoration Christ brings. After the millennium when Christ turns the Kingdom over to the Father and puts Himself under the Father, then the real end comes. Then comes 1 Thes 4:13-18 and 1 Cor 15:50-52. Then is your "Rapture." There is no translation of living earthly bodies into spiritual bodies associated with any of the passages dealing with Christ's appearance or His return. That is an inescapable fact!!!

 

[Elin]

Do you reject also that Jesus shall reign and those who followed him shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel in the regeneration? (that is after he comes)

The Biblical meaning of "the regeneration of all things" is presented in the OP.

Address it.

this is addressing it...you just need to response to the above question.

You are not addressing the meaning of "the regeneration of all things" presented in the OP.

It's meaning answers your question for you.

 

[PlainWord]

How does Jesus relieve the saints at his coming?

Address the full explanation of the OP.

He gathers them. Keep in mind we are talking about a small number who are actually still alive.

[h=4]Luke 18:8 NKJV[/h] I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"

 

[Elin]

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober , and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

It actually says we are kept by the POWER OF GOD, through faith which is revealed in the last time. The judgment is at the end so we must wait until the end for salvation. This is not very conclusive to support your view and it certainly does not rule out Christ reigning and doing things for 1,000 years.

The explanation of the OP refers you back to Ac 3:21.
What does Peter say there?

 

[Elin]

Final Eternal State Heaven is NOT restoration. Restoration is putting earth back the way it was Pre-Flood. Creation groans for it.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

When is the glorious liberty of the children of God?


22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

Creation is NOT groaning to be burned up and dissolved which happens at the very end. Creation is looking to be restored.[/quote]
Peter disagrees.

He teaches that it will be burned up and then there will be a new heavens and new earth, which is its restoration, the new creation.

 

[watcher2013]

You are not addressing the meaning of "the regeneration of all things" presented in the OP.

It's meaning answers your question for you.

can you please copy and paste what you think is the meaning of the regeneration in your OP?

 

[PlainWord]

You are not addressing the meaning of "the regeneration of all things" presented in the OP.

It's meaning answers your question for you.

You are incorrectly tying the regeneration to the end of the world. This is what I keep telling you.

(1) Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.

You correctly place the "rapture" at the very end. But the regeneration happens some 1,000 years prior to the "Rapture."

This passage from Mat 19 is Millennial. It is NOT END TIME ETERNAL STATE!!

28 So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

The above passage dovetails perfectly with Rev 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them....And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The judgment of the 12 tribes is reserved for the disciples!! Rev 20 locates this during the 1,000 years!!!

 

[Richie_2uk]

[h=3]Matthew 24:36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."[/h]1 Thessalonians 5:2 "For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."

Why make assumptions? why work out when things are going to happen? says clearly in Gods word what will happen. Who are you people to determine when and how? when Jesus has told you as clear as day. Why are you people so ignorant to God's Word?

 

[Elin]

Final Eternal State Heaven is NOT restoration. Restoration is putting earth back the way it was Pre-Flood. Creation groans for it.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

Creation is NOT groaning to be burned up and dissolved which happens at the very end. Creation is looking to be restored.

Peter disagrees.

He states that the restoration in the new heavens and new earth occurs after they are destroyed by fire.

 

[Elin]

The explanation of the OP refers you back to Ac 3:21.
What does Peter say there?

He gathers them. Keep in mind we are talking about a small number who are actually still alive.

And that is the rapture.

Keeping in mind the NT writers expected Jesus to return in their lifetime, which is addressed in the OP.

 

[PlainWord]

When is the glorious liberty of the children of God?

During the millennium. Ezekiel 38:8,11. 14. Zech 14:11.

8 After many days you will be visited. In the latter years you will come into the land of those brought back from the sword and gathered from many people on the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate; they were brought out of the nations, and now all of them dwell safely.

 

[Elin]

can you please copy and paste what you think is the meaning of the regeneration in your OP?

I am referring to this:

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4--no death in the new heavens and new earth).
(1) Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things which is the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.

 

[Richie_2uk]

Father In Heaven, Forgive them, for they have ignorant hearts. they rather discuss amongst people who obviously don't trust your word. I ask for your forgiveness upon them. and I pray that they will listen to the truth, your truth father. I pray also father that they will take your word and believe it to be your truth and accept what you said and say is the truth. You said that no one will know the day or the hour. and that you will come like a thief in the night. I just pray that they will listen to that. and stop all assumptions, and guessing, and arguing amongst themselves.

Father I thank you that you will come when your time is right. not when other people think you should come. I trust in your time and your time alone. In Jesus Name amen!.......

 

[PlainWord]

Peter disagrees.

He states that the restoration in the new heavens and new earth occurs after they are destroyed by fire.

Where does Peter say that???? I don't see where Peter says that the Restoration we are discussing happens after the new heavens and earth are established.

 

[PlainWord]

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4--no death in the new heavens and new earth).

No, these are NOT linked.

Restore is to return something to it's previous state.

res·ti·tu·tion

[res-ti-too-shuh

n, -tyoo-] Show IPA
noun 1. reparation made by giving an equivalent or compensation for loss, damage, or injury caused; indemnification.

2. the restoration of property or rights previously taken away, conveyed, or surrendered.

3. restoration to the former or original state or position.

4. Physics. the return to an original physical condition, especially after elastic deformation.

At the very end, GOD burns up everything and we start over with something brand new, never seen before. These events are some 1,000 years apart!! You don't restore a car by building a new one!!!

 

[Elin]

You are incorrectly tying the regeneration to the end of the world.

The regeneration is of all things. . .that's all creation, in the new heavens and earth.

Certain and unequivocal NT teaching knows no other regeneration.

Any other regeneration is from uncertain and private interpretation of prophetic riddles,
which means there are two regenerations. . .and again, multiplying things which are the same.