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S

stek

Guest
#341
#341
are you denying God elected Isreal in the OT no what I am saying is that the elect has changed and you seem to be disagreeing with that the elect is only Isreal. I am saying that elect, those that find devine favor or mercy is no longer the nation of Isreal but now includes the Gentiles. Grant it it has been along time since I studied the OT but I do not recall anywhere in the OT where Isreal is not the elect.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#342
#342
stek said:
are you denying God elected Isreal in the OT no what I am saying is that the elect has changed and you seem to be disagreeing with that the elect is only Isreal. I am saying that elect, those that find devine favor or mercy is no longer the nation of Isreal but now includes the Gentiles. Grant it it has been along time since I studied the OT but I do not recall anywhere in the OT where Isreal is not the elect.
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lol.. Again I ask you. Did Gods election of Isreal in the OT ever mean they would all be saved?

the ONLY way your theory that it has been changed is valid is if it at one time meant they were all saved.

If it did not mean they were all saved in the ot. There is no change, it does not mean they all will be saved because of the election in the NT either..

why? nothing has changed,.

God elected all people to be his true children from adam to the last man who ever will be adopted into his family to live, this election was made to adam, noah, and all believers befor God chose Isreal to be his nation. they are not the same election. God did not elect Isreal to save them.
 
L

loveme1

Senior Member
#343
Oct 30, 2011
8,087
190
63
#343
Matthew 4

Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee; 13And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: 14That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,15The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;16The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.17From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
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Matthew 15

Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. 22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#344
#344
loveme1 said:
Matthew 4



Matthew 15
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The jews considered Galileans half breads..

Thus according to the jews., Galilee would be a gentile nation.

Jesus did not feel the same though. look at the woman at the well. She expecter her messiah also.. why> she was of the children of Isreal. Yet a jew would have called her an unclean gentile
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#345
#345
eternally-gratefull said:
Ignore what? I did not ignore it, I agree.

Rom 11 is not separating them, you ignore this

pfffttt! and thats all ill say. probablys make bad theology.:p




Jacob and Isreal are the same.





Because Paul is talking to gentiles who probably have never heard jacob used as a term to denote Isreal.

Yet Paul quoted an OT passage, in which the nation was called Jacob. Paul did not change the OT passage and call it isreal, he would have been seen as changing scripture.

so those 15 points which prove who the isreal Paul spoke of in romans 11 is national isreal and not spiritual isreal means nothing?



Probablys dont make good theology. Jacob and Isreal dont represent the same meaning. Pfffttt!
Funniest answer all day award goes to EG.
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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#346
#346
Abiding said:
eternally-gratefull said:
Ignore what? I did not ignore it, I agree.

Rom 11 is not separating them, you ignore this

pfffttt! and thats all ill say. probablys make bad theology.:p
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lol. Ok. I think the 15 points were valid and scriptural. so I will keep them.. :p


Probablys dont make good theology. Jacob and Isreal dont represent the same meaning. Pfffttt!
Funniest answer all day award goes to EG.
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lol. Jacob and Isreal has always meant the same thing. Jacobs name was turned to isreal. and they were used interchangably in the OT

God loved isreal jacob (Isreal), but esau he hated

Jeremiah 49:2 Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “That I will cause to be heard an alarm of war In Rabbah of the Ammonites; It shall be a desolate mound, And her villages shall be burned with fire. Then Israel shall take possession of his inheritance,” says the Lord.

both speak of the same people.
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S

stek

Guest
#347
#347
God elected all people to be his true children from adam to the last man who ever will be adopted into his family to live, this election was made to adam, noah, and all believers befor God chose Isreal to be his nation. they are not the same election. God did not elect Isreal to save them

Sorry not following you on this at all. does not the OT refer to men sons of man and sons of God? would this not reflect an elect people?
 
S

stek

Guest
#348
#348
There will come a time when all Israel at that given time will be saved - not
all of Israel of all times, but the Israel which exists at the end. Can Jews be
saved apart from faith in Christ? Does God at some point lift His requirement of
faith? No. It should be obvious from this and other chapters in Romans that to
be saved under the New Covenant a person must believe in Jesus. Rather what Paul
is saying that there will come a time when the Jews as a nation will come to
believe in Christ
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#349
#349
stek said:
There will come a time when all Israel at that given time will be saved - not
all of Israel of all times, but the Israel which exists at the end.
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Yes, thank you. this is what the passage says.

Can Jews be saved apart from faith in Christ? Does God at some point lift His requirement of
faith?
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no, god will never do this.

No. It should be obvious from this and other chapters in Romans that to
be saved under the New Covenant a person must believe in Jesus. Rather what Paul
is saying that there will come a time when the Jews as a nation will come to
believe in Christ
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agree..
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#350
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#350
eternally-gratefull said:
As Zone loves to post over and over, Isreal is STILL in grave sin
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ha?
Israelis have zippola to do with ancient israel.
ancient israel had two parts - a cut-off part
and an abiding part....that part became.....DRUM ROLL.....the church.

gentiles grafted in.

Church = Israel of God

ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED.
 
M

Meshullam

Banned
#351
Mar 8, 2013
244
6
0
#351
Children of Man is 'what comes from' man. Sons means 'descendants' or 'fabricated by'.

And children of God is what is 'born' or 'made' or 'what comes from' God.

All men and women are made by God. But not everything men follow and believe comes from God.

The sons of men are violence and greed, corruption and hate, spite and jealousy, resentment and spite.

The sons of God are love and patience, kindness and meekness, gentleness and respect, humility and compassion.

'we are called (by) the children of God'. (from John).

In other words, we be called 'reliant' on God, 'full of submission', and 'one with his will'.

There are VERY FEW people who are truly this. Very few.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#352
#352
stek said:
God elected all people to be his true children from adam to the last man who ever will be adopted into his family to live, this election was made to adam, noah, and all believers befor God chose Isreal to be his nation. they are not the same election. God did not elect Isreal to save them

Sorry not following you on this at all. does not the OT refer to men sons of man and sons of God? would this not reflect an elect people?
Click to expand...

I am saying election of who is saved has never been a jewish or gentile thing. it has always been based on Christ no matter who you are. or when (before Isreal, duing isreal and after Isreal)

The election of Israel as a nation was never salvic in nature.
 
M

Meshullam

Banned
#353
Mar 8, 2013
244
6
0
#353
Jacob means 'overcome by force' and Israel means 'strives with the God'.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#354
#354
EG dont think i ever asked. Who is "all Israel?"
can you define that and what it means?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#355
#355
Abiding said:
EG dont think i ever asked. Who is "all Israel?"
can you define that and what it means?
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I thought I did with my 15 points of who Isreal is. :p

All Isreal is all who (at the time the prophesy is fulfilled) who are alive on earth and of the nation of Israel, or jacob. or whatever you want to call them

Not that Only Israel will be saved. I believe Many gentiles will be saved at the same time. But Paul is not talking about them.


edit: to add. they are not saved because they are isreal. they are saved because they repent and come to Christ. Just like you and I were saved
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#356
#356
eternally-gratefull said:
I thought I did with my 15 points of who Isreal is. :p

All Isreal is all who (at the time the prophesy is fulfilled) who are alive on earth and of the nation of Israel, or jacob. or whatever you want to call them

Not that Only Israel will be saved. I believe Many gentiles will be saved at the same time. But Paul is not talking about them.


edit: to add. they are not saved because they are isreal. they are saved because they repent and come to Christ. Just like you and I were saved
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everyone of them huh? poof like the calvinist...ok i see ty
even the satan worshipers, and synogogue of satan? alrighty
i get it
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#357
#357
Abiding said:
everyone of them huh? poof like the calvinist...ok i see ty
even the satan worshipers, and synogogue of satan? alrighty
i get it
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No Abiding. you did not read the whole thing.

Read again.

edit: to add. they are not saved because they are isreal. they are saved because they repent and come to Christ. Just like you and I were saved
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There blindness is removed.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#358
#358
eternally-gratefull said:

No Abiding. you did not read the whole thing.

Read again.



There blindness is removed.
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Ok then still the same. you think everybody that doesnt believe is because they are blinded by God.
Nothing to do with them? Romans earlier says that was already in place. If they believe they are grafted
back in if not they stay cut off.

Therefore you think blindness in part means part of them are blinded and another part isnt blinded. right?
Yet its said He concluded them "all" in unbelief. so that He could have mercy on all.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#359
#359
Abiding said:
Ok then still the same. you think everybody that doesnt believe is because they are blinded by God.
Nothing to do with them? Romans earlier says that was already in place. If they believe they are grafted
back in if not they stay cut off.
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why are they blinded Abiding? because of unbelief.

why would they be unblinded? because they believe.

Therefore you think blindness in part means part of them are blinded and another part isnt blinded. right?
Yet its said He concluded them "all" in unbelief. so that He could have mercy on all.
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No. I think many are blinded because they refuse to believe. But at the time, due to world events. they will repent and believe. This is what the OT says, that is why it is also called the time of jacob's trouble.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#360
#360
it all hinges on the meaning "fulness of the gentiles"
never changes.:p
 
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