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A
Jacob had at least one daughter besides his 12 sons. The family was still wandering around (like Abraham did -- right in the Promised Land, but it wasn't yet theirs to own), stayed outside a town, when a big celebration took place. All of Jacob's kids went to the hoedown and had a good time, except for Sis. Some rich man's son had been eyeballing her since they came to the area, and picked that moment to "meet" her, except he didn't. He raped her.
Sis went running home to Dad. Dad went to talk to Rich Man. Rich Man's son wanted to marry her. Jacob decided Rich Man should pay him some big bucks. Two oldest brothers found out and did what older brothers tend to do at that moment. Went in and killed Rich Man's son and either half or the whole town. Sis got stuck living with Dad in shame for the rest of her life (or the rest of Jacob's life. No idea who died first.)
Where was her say? No where does it say she got a say in this matter, and, later on, when the Law came, that was the law. I'm also assuming since Jacob was following God by this time in his life, (a bit suspect when he was young and in love, but by now, he had matured into God's man), so the whole pay for this thingy was definitely not about "young and in love" all the time.
I'm a married woman. If we had children and my daughter was raped, I absolutely know hubby's mind wouldn't be pulled between, "Gee, should we let our daughter marry the guy, or how much does he owe me now?" I also know a little nudge from me would set the course of which way he'd really go. And he'd really go with "Let me kill that (beepbeepbeepbeep)." And, hoping God would grace us enough not to find out without the rapist in easy reach, eventually, he would calm down enough to talk to our daughter and find out what she wants -- let it go or press charges.
That's the American culture talking. That's not God's law. In God's law, I might have rights to nudge hubby. (God really has graced me enough not to pull hubby toward violence, but the impulse remains in both of us.) But daughter, no matter her age, still is supposed to take her cue from Dad?
And all this because women submit to men, like men submit to God? So, we're submitter's submitters?
Maybe that's what I'm trying to find out. "Submitter's submitter," but I still am not supposed to ask God, "Why in the world did you let that happen to Jacob's little girl?" Are men allowed to ask, or simply supposed to submit too? (American! Took me a while to grasp submitting to hubby. Got to figure out it's going to be harder to grasp the bigger picture of what submit means. lol)
"Not my will but thine be done" is a forever hard thing for me to get.
Sis went running home to Dad. Dad went to talk to Rich Man. Rich Man's son wanted to marry her. Jacob decided Rich Man should pay him some big bucks. Two oldest brothers found out and did what older brothers tend to do at that moment. Went in and killed Rich Man's son and either half or the whole town. Sis got stuck living with Dad in shame for the rest of her life (or the rest of Jacob's life. No idea who died first.)
Where was her say? No where does it say she got a say in this matter, and, later on, when the Law came, that was the law. I'm also assuming since Jacob was following God by this time in his life, (a bit suspect when he was young and in love, but by now, he had matured into God's man), so the whole pay for this thingy was definitely not about "young and in love" all the time.
I'm a married woman. If we had children and my daughter was raped, I absolutely know hubby's mind wouldn't be pulled between, "Gee, should we let our daughter marry the guy, or how much does he owe me now?" I also know a little nudge from me would set the course of which way he'd really go. And he'd really go with "Let me kill that (beepbeepbeepbeep)." And, hoping God would grace us enough not to find out without the rapist in easy reach, eventually, he would calm down enough to talk to our daughter and find out what she wants -- let it go or press charges.
That's the American culture talking. That's not God's law. In God's law, I might have rights to nudge hubby. (God really has graced me enough not to pull hubby toward violence, but the impulse remains in both of us.) But daughter, no matter her age, still is supposed to take her cue from Dad?
And all this because women submit to men, like men submit to God? So, we're submitter's submitters?
Maybe that's what I'm trying to find out. "Submitter's submitter," but I still am not supposed to ask God, "Why in the world did you let that happen to Jacob's little girl?" Are men allowed to ask, or simply supposed to submit too? (American! Took me a while to grasp submitting to hubby. Got to figure out it's going to be harder to grasp the bigger picture of what submit means. lol)
"Not my will but thine be done" is a forever hard thing for me to get.
I always wondered about that command for a rapist to marry the woman but now I think it is wonderful!
I think that the rapist can be assured that the woman would never want to have sex with him again. And she need not. She need not live with him either. But he has married her so he has to financially support her and cannot use the usual means of divorce because of the law. No other man would marry her now anyway. So now he has a wife who will not live with him, and who has to be kept by him for the rest of his life. Brilliant!
I think that the rapist can be assured that the woman would never want to have sex with him again. And she need not. She need not live with him either. But he has married her so he has to financially support her and cannot use the usual means of divorce because of the law. No other man would marry her now anyway. So now he has a wife who will not live with him, and who has to be kept by him for the rest of his life. Brilliant!
I'm going to try and address these point by point.
1. There are some books of the bible where the authors are clearly identified. There are others where the authors are speculated, but we don't really know for certain. It's possible (and I'm using possible in its REAL sense here--after all, anything is possible in a quantum universe)...it's possible that some of the books were written by women. Unlikely, but possible. It's also possible that women didn't do the writing, but highly influenced the writing of certain books. For example, it's very possible that Luke worked closely with Mary, the Mother of Jesus in the writing of his gospel. After all, it contains passages with very personal information about Mary becoming pregnant, about Joseph's response, etc.
So, the idea that God used primarily/entirely men to write the scriptures doesn't (to me) demean women in any particular way.
2. The counting of men and male children had to do with the cultural value placed on these children. It wasn't God-ordained. There are lots of cultures that place a higher value on boy children than girl children. The fact that the Hebrews engaged in this kind of system doesn't necessarily reflect the heart of God, IMO, but the will of humanity.
3. While the rape-law you specifically mentioned seems barbaric to our modern sensibilities, it was actually not at the time. While primitive and imperfect, it did provide a means of justice for the young woman. After being raped, it is unlikely that she would marry, so demanding that the rapist pay her brideprice would provide for her as an unmarried woman or that he marry her and provide for her did provide a level of justice. The message was "You MEN will be held responsible for this."
The issue with wifely adultery was obviously paternity. While all adultery was wrong (look at the Ten Commandments), a husband cheating on his wife doesn't bring the paternity of the children into question.
I believe God always valued women (even if men didn't). And he proved this when Jesus (God) walked on earth. He valued women in so many different ways...some that conflicted with the culture and the Pharisees (the woman caught in adultery, for example). Of course, I think the best example of God's view of women is that he chose a woman to birth our Savior. God could have manifested a Savior in any number of ways. However, he chose to have a very humble woman give birth to Jesus (and raise him, mind you). This alone elevates womanhood, in my view.
Of course, there is also the scripture mentioning "no male or female, no Jew or Greek..." God is no respecter of persons. He doesn't place a higher value on someone because they might be rich, or a certain ethnicity, OR a certain gender.
From a personal level, I know how gracious and kind God has been to me. While I have sometimes had conflict with some Christian men who insist this and that about women, I have always felt God's loving approach toward me and my feminine self.
1. There are some books of the bible where the authors are clearly identified. There are others where the authors are speculated, but we don't really know for certain. It's possible (and I'm using possible in its REAL sense here--after all, anything is possible in a quantum universe)...it's possible that some of the books were written by women. Unlikely, but possible. It's also possible that women didn't do the writing, but highly influenced the writing of certain books. For example, it's very possible that Luke worked closely with Mary, the Mother of Jesus in the writing of his gospel. After all, it contains passages with very personal information about Mary becoming pregnant, about Joseph's response, etc.
So, the idea that God used primarily/entirely men to write the scriptures doesn't (to me) demean women in any particular way.
2. The counting of men and male children had to do with the cultural value placed on these children. It wasn't God-ordained. There are lots of cultures that place a higher value on boy children than girl children. The fact that the Hebrews engaged in this kind of system doesn't necessarily reflect the heart of God, IMO, but the will of humanity.
3. While the rape-law you specifically mentioned seems barbaric to our modern sensibilities, it was actually not at the time. While primitive and imperfect, it did provide a means of justice for the young woman. After being raped, it is unlikely that she would marry, so demanding that the rapist pay her brideprice would provide for her as an unmarried woman or that he marry her and provide for her did provide a level of justice. The message was "You MEN will be held responsible for this."
The issue with wifely adultery was obviously paternity. While all adultery was wrong (look at the Ten Commandments), a husband cheating on his wife doesn't bring the paternity of the children into question.
I believe God always valued women (even if men didn't). And he proved this when Jesus (God) walked on earth. He valued women in so many different ways...some that conflicted with the culture and the Pharisees (the woman caught in adultery, for example). Of course, I think the best example of God's view of women is that he chose a woman to birth our Savior. God could have manifested a Savior in any number of ways. However, he chose to have a very humble woman give birth to Jesus (and raise him, mind you). This alone elevates womanhood, in my view.
Of course, there is also the scripture mentioning "no male or female, no Jew or Greek..." God is no respecter of persons. He doesn't place a higher value on someone because they might be rich, or a certain ethnicity, OR a certain gender.
From a personal level, I know how gracious and kind God has been to me. While I have sometimes had conflict with some Christian men who insist this and that about women, I have always felt God's loving approach toward me and my feminine self.
A
Reply to your reply. lol
1. No doubt Luke worked closely with Mary -- more than one Mary even. (Jesus' Mom, Madeleine, and Lazarus and Martha's sister. Might have been a fourth Mary, since there is some question who went to Jesus' tomb when.) But there were scribes back then -- not scribes and scribettes. Writing was man's domain, just like authority in churches is still man's domain.
I do think OldHermit covered that one to my satisfaction. (Submitting -- menz folkz did it to God as their womenz folkz did it for man, including the Marys helping Luke with the Big Account.)
2. You might want to check out the beginning of Numbers again. "And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying" He spaked a lot! 14 times the Lord spoked to Moses, and I'm only halfway through Chapter 5. That census thingy? Really, really God's idea!
I'm not going back to how many times the verse was "And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying" to cover the Law, but it really was all spaked by God and from the same God who just crushed Egyptian gods one by one in all 10 plagues, so it wasn't about putting up with a certain kind of culture at the time. He's more of a culture smasher than a culture tolerator.
Also, Maury Povich could dispute you on the whole paternity issue, if it was just the ladies adultering. You can't tell who the father of the baby is if a man cheats with another woman anymore than you can tell if the woman isn't married.
1. No doubt Luke worked closely with Mary -- more than one Mary even. (Jesus' Mom, Madeleine, and Lazarus and Martha's sister. Might have been a fourth Mary, since there is some question who went to Jesus' tomb when.) But there were scribes back then -- not scribes and scribettes. Writing was man's domain, just like authority in churches is still man's domain.
I do think OldHermit covered that one to my satisfaction. (Submitting -- menz folkz did it to God as their womenz folkz did it for man, including the Marys helping Luke with the Big Account.)
2. You might want to check out the beginning of Numbers again. "And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying" He spaked a lot! 14 times the Lord spoked to Moses, and I'm only halfway through Chapter 5. That census thingy? Really, really God's idea!
I'm not going back to how many times the verse was "And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying" to cover the Law, but it really was all spaked by God and from the same God who just crushed Egyptian gods one by one in all 10 plagues, so it wasn't about putting up with a certain kind of culture at the time. He's more of a culture smasher than a culture tolerator.
Also, Maury Povich could dispute you on the whole paternity issue, if it was just the ladies adultering. You can't tell who the father of the baby is if a man cheats with another woman anymore than you can tell if the woman isn't married.
C
Well, since it is just me I will make some oatmeal with some brown sugar on top. It is so delicious and healthy, plus I don't eat a lot. If I was feeding other people I would either make French Toast with Scrambled Eggs and Sausage OR Hashbrowns, toast, eggs, and bacon (even though I don't like bacon), but I put my personal preference to the side for other people.
S
I dont know scripture to back my view up here.
So forgive me...I just speak my heart.
As a women...where I stand with God
Simple
Love God
Love others
Compassion to others..
Wish better for others more than for myself..honestly because I can be pleased with very little no prob...never had alot...not missing anything
Raised my child best I could in Christ
Build others up..not break them down
Love a man someday for who he is
Not for what he could be to benefit selfishness, I can live happy without.
Lol...hey I didnt make myself into an amazing wonderment in societies corporate career ladder
Thats my fault
Im not making nobody pay for what I lack
True love is a treasure beyond all riches of the world
I look forward to finding it someday
Lol...God willing of course
So forgive me...I just speak my heart.
As a women...where I stand with God
Simple
Love God
Love others
Compassion to others..
Wish better for others more than for myself..honestly because I can be pleased with very little no prob...never had alot...not missing anything
Raised my child best I could in Christ
Build others up..not break them down
Love a man someday for who he is
Not for what he could be to benefit selfishness, I can live happy without.
Lol...hey I didnt make myself into an amazing wonderment in societies corporate career ladder
Thats my fault
Im not making nobody pay for what I lack
True love is a treasure beyond all riches of the world
I look forward to finding it someday
Lol...God willing of course
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