Which will happen first, The Ezekiel 38 Gog War or the Rapture?

konroh · Sep 27, 2013

Ok, I understand what you're saying. Because the resurrection is "on the last day" and the prophecy of Ezekiel is "in the latter days" the resurrection has to occur after the battle and we know the resurrection has to occur before the Rapture. I understand what you're saying.

What I'm saying, though, is that Ezekiel is prophesying of events that occur some time in the future, because there are many events those events are referred to as in the last days. This is not necessarily a technical term, Ezekiel sometimes says, For the day is near, the day of the LORD is near-- a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. Both are terms used for the future, near future, far future to be determined by context.

In the same way, John 6:40 says the resurrection is "on the last day" as a general term for the future. And as I referenced Jesus' and Martha's use of the term "in the last day" it's an idea that it occurs in the future, in the end, not necessarily at the end of everything. You seem to be saying that because it's the use of the singular word "day" it has to be at the end of the "last days." This is a misunderstanding of the way the prophets used the term "last days" "on that day" "in the last day" etc. The terms are often used synonymously. Both Jesus and Ezekiel are talking about events in the future. You are putting a gap between the resurrection and the Rapture, yet you don't like me putting a gap between the resurrection and the kingdom. I don't see the problem with Ezekiel prophesying about a future battle making no mention of a resurrection but of course we know that people are resurrected before the kingdom (millenium). So the order of events can be resurrection, Rapture, battle, kingdom. The resurrection is before the Rapture and the kingdom.

As I understand you proposing battle, resurrection, kingdom, rapture, you have put a gap between the resurrection and the Rapture when 1 Thess. 4 doesn't reference any gap. It appears that we both have problems with where we put each other's gaps. To quote Rocky about Adrian in Rocky I, "I got gaps, she's got gaps, we fill each other's gaps." (I'm not downplaying this dialogue--just trying to add understanding.)

watcher2013 · Sep 27, 2013

konroh said:

I just want to make sure where you stand?

First you said;

Now you are saying;

Anyway, It is true that when the OT and NT refer to the "last days" it pertains to events in a distant future and it also refer to many days. as an example:
Act 2:16 But this isthat which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shallcome to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon allflesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young menshall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Peter was referring that what happened to them was a fulfilment of a prophecy pertaining to the "last days", was he saying that from that day forward, referes to the "last days"?

Also, in referring to the "day of the Lord" it could mean future events but most of the time it refers to the Justice by the Lord wherein He execute his judgement.
another example, was during the Babylonian empire

Jer 46:10 For this isthe day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him ofhis adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and madedrunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the northcountry by the river Euphrates.

But when referring to the Resurrection you will find that they refer to the "last day" not "days". It maybe within the days of the "last days" but its the end of days.
example:

Job resurrection:Job 19:25 For I knowthat my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon theearth:
Job 19:26 And thoughafter my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Daniel resurrection:
Dan 12:13 But go thouthy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the endof the days.
and John 6:39-40

The question I think is, Is it impossible that Resurrection will occur at the last day, latter day, end of days?

The gap between Resurrection and Rapture is clear but unclear as to how long (1thes 4:13-18) I did not put it. It was there when the bible clearly say that Resurrection shall occur FIRST. Whether it be minutes, hours or half of day, It was not clear.

We are discussing which will occur first, The Ezekiel 38 War or the Rapture, whether you put the kingdom in between or after the rapture its up to you as long as it can be supported with scriptures.
Let us focus on which is clear, That Resurrection shall occur first before the Rapture.

You can put a gap between Resurrection and the kingdom all you like, but consider this about the kingdom:

Rev 11:15 And theseventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, Thekingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ;and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Based from the above verse, When do you think the Kingdom of this world become the kingdom of Christ?

and would you agree that the transition period between the kingdom of this world to the Kingdom of Christ is the LAST DAY of the kingdom of this world?

zone · Sep 27, 2013

wow.....such confusion

Creation >>>>>First Advent>>>>Second Advent: Resurrection Judgment Eternity

watcher2013 · Sep 28, 2013

hope to know where you finally stand?

konroh · Sep 28, 2013

I was trying to understand your sequence of events. To me it's interesting that 1 Thess. has the order of events as resurrection, rapture, day of the Lord. To me this day of the Lord includes the events of Ezek. 38 and pertains to God setting up His kingdom. The kingdom of God includes spiritual aspects (we are already transferred into Christ's kingdom if we believe) as well as political and earthly aspects. The picture in Ezek. Dan. and Rev. places God's Kingdom (Christ's Davidic Kingdom reign) at the top of all military, political and economic power. A climax of human history where Christ reigns for 1000 years.

watcher2013 · Sep 30, 2013

sometimes, it is hard to follow a direction verbally, but if you have a map you will easily understand.

here is a video link relating to the above.
the trumpets of God the Resurrection and Rapture - YouTube

john832 · Sep 30, 2013

watcher2013 said:

Very easy, the war of Ezek 38 because there is no rapture. Now if we view this question concerning the return of Christ and the war, then the return of Christ occurs first...

Eze 38:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
Eze 38:11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

The above shows that this is not of this age, this is a Millenial setting. Now the next question is when does this occur?

Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

And a careful reading of this passage shows that this is the time when Israel will be returned to their land for the second time...

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

If we read the verses prior to this (get the context), we see this has not occurred yet...

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Can anybody here show me where this is fulfilled today? Didn't think so. This is the result of Christ returning and reigning on the earth. A second exodus, not from Egypt but from the land of the North (Gog and Magog)...

Jer 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
Jer 16:15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

-This has not occurred, yet. It is not the attack mentioned in Rev 20: either...

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

There are no bodies to bury and none are killed by the sword in Rev 20...

Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

Eze 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
Eze 39:3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
Eze 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
Eze 39:5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Yes there is a fire involved, but the bodies are strewn over the fields and must be buried, this burial takes seven months. In the battle in Rev 20 all are consumed. Two different occurences, the battle of Ezek 20 at the beginning of the Millenium and the battle in Rev 20 at the end.

watcher2013 · Sep 30, 2013

john832 said:

Are you saying that Christ Is on Earth before Ezekiel 38 War?

The above did not shows its the Millenial setting, It only shows that those who dwell in the land are at rest and safe...Now when does this occur...simply read the verse before (in THE LATTER YEARS)
Eze 38:8 After manydays thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the landthat is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people,against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it isbrought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Now here are the conditions above before they dwell safely;
1. The land that is BROUGHT BACK from the Sword
2. Gathered out of Many people/ Brought forth out of the nations
3. Israel which have been always waste.

Israel today is not waste, in fact there are recent report that the those who live in Israel today are the happiest people on earth.
However, Before the establishment of the Nation of Israel in 1948...The Land was said to have been in waste/desolation a "wasteland".

And as a fulfilment of Eze 36

Eze 36:10 And I willmultiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the citiesshall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:
Eze 36:24 For I willtake you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and willbring you into your own land.

Eze 36:35 And theyshall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; andthe waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
What was the Gathering on 1948?

The question when was the first gathering?
and when was the second time they were scattered?

I hope you have notice that verse 1 shows that a Branch shall grow....When did the branch grow?

vs. 2, the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him...When was this fulfilled?
Luk 4:18 The Spiritof the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to thepoor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to thecaptives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that arebruised, 19. To preach the acceptableyear of the Lord 20 And he closed thebook, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of allthem that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day isthis scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Using your same Logic, This scriptures was fulfilled long ago.

Moreover look at verse 9...They shall not HURT OR DESTROY in ALL MY HOLY MOUNTAIN...

If Christ is reigning before Eze 38 war, would it not Hurt/Or destroy particularly the mountains of Israel?

Is it possible though that the verses 1:10 show two stages: the first stage: The Branch (the root of Jesse, which the gentiles will seek) first coming and the second stage: the Branch kingdom.

and from verse 11-16.. Describing the 2nd Gathering of the children of Israel.

For if we refer to verse 1 and 2, the fulfilment of the scriptures was during first century. And if we refer to verse 9, No war in Israel during his kingdom.

Could the prophecy be referring to the Babylonian Empire which was also from the north.

Jer 16:9 For thussaith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will cause to cease outof this place in your eyes, and in your days, the voice of mirth, and the voiceof gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride.

Note that the prophecy will occur IN YOUR EYES AND IN YOUR DAYS... (the eyes and days of the audiences at that time of prophecy)

There are differences between Eze 38 war vs. Rev Gog-Magog war. That is why the thread compared only to Eze 38 War.

Based from the verse you gave which probably refer to the Millennial Kingdom;

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

That they shall not hurt nor destroy in all my Holy mountain, Eze 38 could not fall within the Millennial Kingdom.
Is it possible that Eze 38 is before the Establishment of the Millennial Kingdom, thereby before Christ Set up his Kingdom and thereby Before His return?

john832 · Sep 30, 2013

watcher2013 said:

Yep. The nations will not submit immediately to Christ's rule, one only has to read Zech 14 to see this...

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

The nations will fight against Him...

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Zec 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

Now read on...

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Why does Egypt have to be punished by drought and other plagues for not keeping the Feast? This is after Christ's return, yet they balk at obeying and have to be corrected with drought and plagues. People do not go up to Jerusalem to keep the Feast today, yet when they do, some nations will have to be goaded into it.

Are you telling me that Israel lives like this today?

Eze 38:11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

you ever here of the IDF?

"National military service is mandatory for all Israeli citizens over the age of 18" - Wikipedia

Show me the unwalled cities and the people living in peace and safety today. Ever hear of the six day war and the Yom Kippur war?

The second exodus has not occurred, the modern day Assyrians are those who will take Israel into national slavery...

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

Jer 23:7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
Jer 23:8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

Israel has not been taken by the North country, yet.

Go back and read the quote from Isaiah...

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

Notice that Christ stopped the quote right here? The rest is future and is yet to be fulfilled...

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

The pharse "the day of vengeance of our God" refers to the one time in all of history know as the Great Tribulation and Day of the Lord.

Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
Isa 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
Isa 61:5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.

This happening in Israel today? Didn't think so.

Isa 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

The Gentiles are dedicated to pushing Israel into the sea today. This is for a future time.

Isa 61:7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.

As Christ subdues the nations they will come under His rule, but they will not come immediately.

The Branch refers to Christ at His second coming...

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

We don't see even the nature of wild animals changed today. We don't see lions eating straw or for it to be safe for a child to put his hand in the cobra's den today.

Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

How about it? Is Egypt a Christian nation today?

Isa 19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.
Isa 19:19 In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD.
Isa 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
Isa 19:21 And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it.
Isa 19:22 And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.

Same reference as Zech 14.

How about today, is this alliance in force?

Isa 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
Isa 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

Do you see Israel, Egypt and Germany allied as one?

Do you see them serving God as one?

Isa 19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

When Ezekiel wrote, they were already in captivity. He was writing of a future time, if not, then all he did was record past history.

This si a different prophecy from a different writer. You are confusing prophecies here.

Do you think that these peoples will fall down and submit immediately? They wont' submit under some of the most horrible plagues ever dished out during the Day of the Lord...

Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

So what is the result of the sixth plague?

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Now the seventh plague...

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

So you believe that men will receive Christ as their Deliverer and Saviour when He returns?

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Humanity will not immediately surrender to Christ, in some cases (Ezek 38 for one) they will have to be forced to by punishment. The result of not hurting or destroying in the Kingdom will be the end result of Christ forcing the nations to obey.

God will use the alliance of Israel, Egypt and Germany to discipline other nations to obedience...

Isa 11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

Notably Turkey and Jordan here.

watcher2013 · Sep 30, 2013

john832 said:

It seems that you are referring to the coming of Jesus Christ at this point, The Lord feet at mt Olives and considering Rev 19:11 is when the heaven open and john saw a white horse. (as you refer to Rev 19:19-21)

Rev19:11 And I saw heaven opened, andbehold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True,and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

If this is the case, and since you suggest that Christ will come first before Eze 38 war,

Then Eze 38 is after the war mentioned in Zech 14.

Note that before his feet stand at Mt. Olives (Zech 14:4), half of the city have already been taken captive; means Zech 14 war have occur first before Jesus coming.
Zec 14:2 For I willgather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken,and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall goforth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off fromthe city.

Please answer this Questions:
1. What is the War from Zech 14?
2. Is it the Eze 38 War or Not,? and if Not,
3. Is Eze 38 war, After this war?

is that the only rule in the kingdom? There are probably more.
Having said that, That is the future event Which can be answer only if they will break that rule.

Let me ask you this, Is that rule effective for how many years, or throughout the period of the kingdom? Because if throughout the period and if I will apply your reasoning, that means that the nations did not submit to his rule all throughout his kingdom.

The prophecy of Eze 38 is in stages.
They have to be gathered
They have to build villages

What I am telling you, the gathering will not happen the same day as they build villages.
The gathering of Israelis are continually in process that began prior to the 1948 establishment of the Nation of Israel.
Likewise Peace and Safety.

Having an Army is not a reason for not having peace and to dwell safely. In heaven God have his own armies, and revelation did mentioned of war in heaven.

The same way the war of 1949, 1967, Yom Kippur brought forth peace in the land.
The 1948-49 war Result to armistice peace agreement.
The 1967 resulting to the Egypt-Israel Peace treaty.
The Yom kippur war resulting a Peace with Syria

Are the people in Britain or USA living safely and at rest, would you say Yes? They are not at war. You see War is the absence of Peace.

I guess to further response to the rest of your comments, I would need your answer and I repeat my Question which you did not Answer.
1. When was the first gathering?

or

2. What nation/Nations cause the first exodus?

Response to your opinion on this one will be based on how you answer the above question.

What I am saying is you refer Isa 11 as your context to determine the timing of the gathering.

Proving that Verses 1 and 2 of Isa 11 refers to the time before crucifixion of Christ put your view of gathering during his time

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

at what point in the kingdom do you think all will be subject to his rule, after Zech 14 war?

As previously said, Isaiah describes the first coming of the Branch Isa 11:1-2, the second stage shows the Branch in His kingdom.

Can you see the changes in the nature of wild animals at Zech 14 war or at His coming in Rev 19 (as you suggest above), not yet. So the picture above is not at the beginning but on a much farther period of the kingdom.

as said, the gathering began prior to 1948 establishment of the Nation of Israel and is continually on going.

I do not see, the reason why you quote this.
But to response, It say five cities, How many cities are there in Egypt? from wiki there at least 41 cities in Egypt.

and also from wikepedia
"Egypt is a predominantly Sunni Muslim country with Islam as its state religion. The percentage of adherents of various religions is a controversial topic in Egypt. An estimated 90% are identified as Muslim, 9% as Coptic Christians, and 1% as other Christian denominations"

Zech 14, All nations are against Jerusalem (Zech 14:2)

Egypt and the assyrians were not mentioned in the Eze 38 war, I do not see the reason why you keep referring to them?
and Ezekiel 38 is the invasion of Israel only (not even mentioned the support of the alliance you mentioned above)

I was referring to Isa 11:11-16.

Jer 16:9 is a response when you quote Jer 16:14-15 , and I think you know it because you change your reference to Jer 23.

The reference Rev 16:9-21 is before His coming.

Would you agree this reference is at his coming, as you claim Eze 38 is after his coming, placing Rev 19 war a different war.

Where is the biblical reference that God will use the Alliance you mentioned to discipline other nations?

just-me · Sep 30, 2013

Ezekiel will happen before the rapture according to what I have studied and heard, contrary to the book series called "left behind". (I have the movies on DVD) I think that Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 are part of the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

watcher2013 · Oct 2, 2013

john832,
to understand your view, please let us know who do you think caused the first exodus and where were they scattered, and also when was the first gathering?

overcomer2 · Oct 2, 2013

I believe the war of Gog and Magog is formulating NOW. I'm sorry Watcher2013 there are way too many scriptures to put this in perspective. The interesting thing about truth is that you will know when you hear something that is of God and when its not.

watcher2013 · Oct 2, 2013

overcomer2 said:

One thing about truth is where you based your truth.

we need provide scriptures to support our views, even as you said there are too many scriptures, so others may have the privilege to question our views and likewise we can also defend thereby both can learn from each other and decide whether to accept the other views or not.

Hoffco · Oct 7, 2013

I have read enough posts to know the discussion; So I will add my take on the questions. I see the Eze. 38 invasion of Russia and China and the others to be at the mid. point of the 70th wk. of Daniel. They invade Israel to over throw the peace treaty of the antichrist and Israel. The anti christ is the King of the south and he responses to the invasion to protect Israel. Before these two kings fight, Jesus returns to the sky ,destroys Russia and her hoards on the mountains of Israel, Jesus then Raptures the church of all the ages of history, Jews and Gentiles. "ONE FLOCK" of Jh,10. Th dead are raised first and then we,who are alive are changed and we all are raptured to Heaven for 3 -1/2 yrs. And, NO, the rapture can not happen tomorrow. That is my humble opinion. Oh, we will rule this earth with Jesus 3-1/2 yrs,later from Jerusalem. Love to all Hoffco

Hoffco · Oct 7, 2013

Oh, "the last day", or the "day of Christ" and "the Day of the LORD" are terms to refer to the last 1,000 yrs. of world history. the "day of God" refers to the white thrown Judgement and the lake of fire and includes the creation of the new heavens and the new earth. at the end of the Day of Christ. The wicked dead are raised after the 1,000yrs. Hoffco

john832 · Oct 7, 2013

watcher2013 said:

Well, the first exodus is well documented in the book of Exodus.

CoooCaw · Oct 7, 2013

psalm 83.............

watcher2013 said:

watcher2013 · Oct 7, 2013

john832 said:

Ah...

What is your view about this verses?

[Jer 25:8-11]] KJV v 8 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words, v 9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. v 10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. v 11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

And its fulfillment:

2Ch 36:20-21 KJV v 20 And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: v 21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

Seems to me that this was another exodus:

To the North.

watcher2013 · Oct 11, 2013

so what do you think john832?

Which will happen first, The Ezekiel 38 Gog War or the Rapture?

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