Who did the witch of Endor and saul talk to ?

[reject-tech]

Well, maybe this won't go over well, heheh but...

I believe both Saul and the woman thought that they conversed with Samuel, the way people imagine that they see ghosts.
And that it was actually God "messing" with both of them, Saul because He wasn't dealing properly with silence from God, and just wouldn't be happy with silence, and the woman of Endor because she was into witchcraft or paganism or what not.

Because I do not believe it's possible to conjure up the spirit of a dead person and converse with them. Now or then.
Nor do I believe "demons" are things that can mess with people like this.
Like a wee-gee board ( I know, spelling )
I believe if a person believes in such nonsense, God will let them see whatever they want to see, and mix in accurate answers to cement the nonsensical beliefs of the lost, so that they are certainly sealed as "lost"
That way when He finally does break the graven images and false altars, it is a witness of utter destruction of graven images and false altars.
A "see how you wasted your time with that witchcraft" lesson.

Names in the story -
Samuel represents a comparison between how man and God hear a thing. Ideally, the same way.
Saul represents what is asked for by mankind.
David represents how God and man communicate when they use symbolism.
Endor means "fountain of the age"

David said
"He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision."
So this might be a record of such an event.

 

[danschance]

It was not samuel for sure, because the scripture says

Ec 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

And if this verse is true, that the memory is forgotten, then the first question Samuel would have asked to Saul is , "Who are you?"

Saul does not obey or trust God.

So he goes to a pagan inspired witch that are condemned in Israel.

The witch has a familiar spirit--a demon. these witches have connections with the demon world.

Saul asks the witch to call up Samuel's spirit--a pagan teaching.

God actually caused this opportunity to tell Saul his fate by the channel that Saul himself choose.

God revealed the fate of Saul through this witch.

Samuel was never there. Saul assumed that the "old man" had to be Samuel. It was not.

Believe the scripture and not what people say

Right.... So you are letting your false theology dictate that this must not of been Samuel even though SCRIPTURE says it was and Samuel's predication came true. Rigghhhtttt... So this means demons are now telling the truth in scriptures, right? LOL.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Right.... So you are letting your false theology dictate that this must not of been Samuel even though SCRIPTURE says it was and Samuel's predication came true. Rigghhhtttt... So this means demons are now telling the truth in scriptures, right? LOL.

Seek me a woman with a familiar spirit -What was the purpose of finding someone with a "familiar spirit"? What is a "familiar spirit"?
If God was going to talk or answer Saul's prayers - Why wouldn't God use a prophet that was alive? 'And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets' - Saul made a decision to use a 'woman with a familiar spirit' which is an abomination to God. Deut.18:10-12

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it; and inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse. 1 Chronicles 10:13,14

Saul knew it was wrong to seek the familiar spirit - that is why he disguised himself - but he couldn't and didn't hide from God.

 

[Sanashankar]

As far as I know, in context 9:4-6, 10 is talking about that it's better to be alive to seek for a reward, because with life comes knowledge. Whereas, if your dead you cannot seek for promises or rewards in the grave. Life on earth is the only place for opportunity for any accomplishment and reward. This moment on earth is your moment to move. It's a place for your continuous activity on earth. It might be comparison to understanding the gospel. This chance is your chance to receive the promise given through the blood of Jesus, after this life there is no second chance. So you have knowledge on earth to seek a reward, whereas you can't any longer if your dead being cut off from the knowledge to find it.

What u said is true, but it doesn't prove that there is memory after death. No witch or demon has the power to bring a dead person back to life. Do you believe they have the power????? The scripture shows how God hates these people, and do we have to believe they have the power to bring a person back to life???????

Ex 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

we should be trusting the word of god not the word of the witch.

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

Seek me a woman with a familiar spirit -What was the purpose of finding someone with a "familiar spirit"? What is a "familiar spirit"?
If God was going to talk or answer Saul's prayers - Why wouldn't God use a prophet that was alive?

The question of why God didn't use a prophet that was still alive, didn't change the fact that He used Samuel. The scriptures quoted prove this.

Furthermore, haven't you read what Jesus said to the Sadducees? Samuel was and is alive through Christ.

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

 

[Sanashankar]

As far as I know, in context 9:4-6, 10 is talking about that it's better to be alive to seek for a reward, because with life comes knowledge. Whereas, if your dead you cannot seek for promises or rewards in the grave. Life on earth is the only place for opportunity for any accomplishment and reward. This moment on earth is your moment to move. It's a place for your continuous activity on earth. It might be comparison to understanding the gospel. This chance is your chance to receive the promise given through the blood of Jesus, after this life there is no second chance. So you have knowledge on earth to seek a reward, whereas you can't any longer if your dead being cut off from the knowledge to find it.

Ps 6:5 For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Ec 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Jb 14:14 If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

The bible says you have to "wait" till the day come.

Jb 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he?
Jb 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Till the heavens be no more, they shall not wake up, nor be raised from the sleep. Isnt that clear my brother??????

 

[Bryancampbell]

What u said is true, but it doesn't prove that there is memory after death. No witch or demon has the power to bring a dead person back to life. Do you believe they have the power????? The scripture shows how God hates these people, and do we have to believe they have the power to bring a person back to life???????

Ex 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

we should be trusting the word of god not the word of the witch.

Well actually she didn't bring him up from the grave, but his spirit. Spiritualist and witchdoctors can do the whole talk to the dead. In Numbers, a man named Balaam spoke to God as a prophet, but at the time, Israel had just left Egypt and was coming in the promise land. You would wonder, how did he speak to God if he never heard of Israel? Well he wasn't just a prophet, he was also a diviner, that is evil. We should never walk in the way of witches, spiritualist, diviners, etc. But witchcraft is real. I use to have grandparents who practiced divination. Stuff is real, but it's not good. Devil has tricks, but it's nothing to the power of God.

 

[Sanashankar]

Right.... So you are letting your false theology dictate that this must not of been Samuel even though SCRIPTURE says it was and Samuel's predication came true. Rigghhhtttt... So this means demons are now telling the truth in scriptures, right? LOL.

My false theology??? Everything is the control of the Almighty God, he can use a lying spirit to tell the truth and use the same spirit to tell the lie....It is God who sends the good spirit and the evil spirit. Even satan can't move without the permission of God.

Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:
(God not satan)

1Sa 16:14 . But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
(God not satan)

1Sa 16:23 And it came to pass, when the [evil] spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
(God not satan)

God sends delusion, so that wicked people believe a lie, u think God cant use a lying spirit to tell saul truth and make him realise how cunning and ungodly he is, before the day of his death???

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[PennEd]

Ps 6:5 For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Ec 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Jb 14:14 If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

The bible says you have to "wait" till the day come.

Jb 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he?
Jb 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Till the heavens be no more, they shall not wake up, nor be raised from the sleep. Isnt that clear my brother??????

Clearly there will be memories after death in "Abraham's bosom". Just ask Lazarus who is in torment and remembers his brothers. The verses you refer to mostly deal with the dead who will be judged and cast into hell. We may not have a memory of THEM.

 

[Sanashankar]

Well actually she didn't bring him up from the grave, but his spirit. Spiritualist and witchdoctors can do the whole talk to the dead. In Numbers, a man named Balaam spoke to God as a prophet, but at the time, Israel had just left Egypt and was coming in the promise land. You would wonder, how did he speak to God if he never heard of Israel? Well he wasn't just a prophet, he was also a diviner, that is evil. We should never walk in the way of witches, spiritualist, diviners, etc. But witchcraft is real. I use to have grandparents who practiced divination. Stuff is real, but it's not good. Devil has tricks, but it's nothing to the power of God.

The spirit is in the grave?????i thought the spirit goes back to God.

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Its really confusing,
some people say the moment a person dies he reaches god. i dont understand how people reach in heaven/hell before the judgment. they are sentenced before the judgment day

some people say they are in paradise and waiting for the resurrection

some (that includes me) believes the spirit goes back to god and the body decays. God gives the spirit to a spiritual body and raise us on the last day.

What abt samuel? You say the witch brought his spirit from the grave, but according to the church believes are not people supposed to go to god after the death?????

 

[Sanashankar]

Clearly there will be memories after death in "Abraham's bosom". Just ask Lazarus who is in torment and remembers his brothers. The verses you refer to mostly deal with the dead who will be judged and cast into hell. We may not have a memory of THEM.

You say "Clearly there will be memories after death in "Abraham's bosom"

Bible say

Ps 6:5 For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Ec 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Jb 14:14 If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

The bible says you have to "wait" till the day come.

Jb 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he?
Jb 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Till the heavens be no more, they shall not wake up, nor be raised from the sleep. I don't think Job was a unrighteous man who will be judged and cast into hell. till the appointed time like Job mentions here, there will be no memory.

 

[Bryancampbell]

The spirit is in the grave?????i thought the spirit goes back to God.

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Its really confusing,
some people say the moment a person dies he reaches god. i dont understand how people reach in heaven/hell before the judgment. they are sentenced before the judgment day

some people say they are in paradise and waiting for the resurrection

some (that includes me) believes the spirit goes back to god and the body decays. God gives the spirit to a spiritual body and raise us on the last day.

What abt samuel? You say the witch brought his spirit from the grave, but according to the church believes are not people supposed to go to god after the death?????

The spirit does go back to God for the awaiting judgement. The validity of any necromancers isn't always proved to be genuine. What's weird about this is that it doesn't mention his spirit coming up from Sheol. But Saul did sin by going to a witch that practiced necromancy and divination. But I believe in this context God was in control, not the witch, so that it may reveal Saul's repercussions. Honestly, I don't think anyone knows how she contacted Samuel, but a lot of us say God was in control. Of course.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The question of why God didn't use a prophet that was still alive, didn't change the fact that He used Samuel. The scriptures quoted prove this.

Furthermore, haven't you read what Jesus said to the Sadducees? Samuel was and is alive through Christ.

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

So, God used a woman with a familiar spirit - God used something he considered an abomination?

The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection of the dead. Luke 20:27

Samuel was dead and in the grave. God does not use familiar spirits nor necromancers to speak to the dead nor bring them up from the dead.

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest. Ecc. 9:10

To say that it was Samuel sets up a contradiction with what God says through scripture in Ecclesiastes.

 

[Bryancampbell]

So, God used a woman with a familiar spirit - God used something he considered an abomination?

The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection of the dead. Luke 20:27

Samuel was dead and in the grave. God does not use familiar spirits nor necromancers to speak to the dead nor bring them up from the dead.

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest. Ecc. 9:10

To say that it was Samuel sets up a contradiction with what God says through scripture in Ecclesiastes.

God told Hosea to marry a prostitute and adulteress (Hosea 1:2) I explained Ess. 9:10 above. God used Satan to kill Jesus through men.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

God told Hosea to marry a prostitute and adulteress (Hosea 1:2) I explained Ess. 9:10 above. God used Satan to kill Jesus through men.

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest. Ecc. 9:10
As far as I know, in context 9:4-6, 10 is talking about that it's better to be alive to seek for a reward, because with life comes knowledge. Whereas, if your dead you cannot seek for promises or rewards in the grave.
Whatever you have to do, do it now while you are alive because once you are dead and in the grave there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom.

Yep, Satan did crucify our Lord through men BUT if he had known that God in Christ would dwell in each and every born again believer via the gift of holy spirit (the mystery, one body, the resurrection, death destroyed), he would not have crucified our Lord - 1 Cor. 2:7,8

 

[Bryancampbell]

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest. Ecc. 9:10
As far as I know, in context 9:4-6, 10 is talking about that it's better to be alive to seek for a reward, because with life comes knowledge. Whereas, if your dead you cannot seek for promises or rewards in the grave.
Whatever you have to do, do it now while you are alive because once you are dead and in the grave there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom.

Yep, Satan did crucify our Lord through men BUT if he had known that God in Christ would dwell in each and every born again believer via the gift of holy spirit (the mystery, one body, the resurrection, death destroyed), he would not have crucified our Lord - 1 Cor. 2:7,8

Exactly, but in verse 9:10 of the context of 4-6, you right now have the chance to obtain knowledge about seeking a reward, whereas if you fail to, you cannot have a second try of knowing how to receive that promise. No wisdom, no knowledge, nothing, because it's too late. So this context isn't talking about the erased memory of the dead, but that the knowledge of obtaining a reward only exists when you're alive.

If someone doesn't get the chance to know Jesus in this life, the grave will not provide you a second revelation or knowledge or wisdom to attain salvation. You're dead.

And yes because Satan was so blind to what he was doing, he not only was used, but he helped his own dominion come to an end by the start of God's plan of salvation.

 

[Isdaniel]

DEMONS CAN PROPHESY THINGS THAT COMES TO PAST
[h=3]Deuteronomy 13[/h]King James Version (KJV)

13 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

 

[Elin]

If you trust in the scriptures, it says it was Samuel, not a demon, not a lying spirit. The prediction from Samuel was true and played out the very next day. There is nothing in that verse that suggests it was not Samuel. Those who claim this was a spirit or demon simply can not prove it.

No it says, "Saul knew it was Samuel."
But if Saul were deceived by Satan, he would be wrong.

There are strong Scriptural indications that it was not Samuel.

Witches do not have the power to bring the redeemed back from their rest in God to this world.
Nor would Samuel have agreed that they could and responded to her summons.

However, Saul believed the delusion, which caused him to prostrate himself before it, and convinced him of the power of divination, thereby turning him over to the power of Satan.

Saul turned away from God and sought advice elsewhere.
But to turn from God is necessarily to turn to Satan.

And Satan's response is deliberately intended to drive Saul to despair and suicide.
Had it been truly Samuel, he would have told him to repent and make peace with God,
to recall David from his banishment of him, and he might hope to find mercy from God.

Satan could foretell his death because God had turned Saul over to Satan for destruction (1Kgs 22:20-22; 1Co 5:5).

 

[Isdaniel]

No it says, "Saul knew it was Samuel."
But if Saul were deceived by Satan, he would be wrong.

There are strong Scriptural indications that it was not Samuel.

Witches do not have the power to bring the redeemed back from their rest in God to this world.
Nor would Samuel have agreed that they could and responded to her summons.

However, Saul believed the delusion, which caused him to prostrate himself before it, and convinced him of the power of divination, thereby turning him over to the power of Satan.

Saul turned away from God and sought advice elsewhere.
But to turn from God is necessarily to turn to Satan.

And Satan's response is deliberately intended to drive Saul to despair and suicide.
Had it been truly Samuel, he would have told him to repent and make peace with God,
to recall David from his banishment of him, and he might hope to find mercy from God.

Satan could foretell his death because God had turned Saul over to Satan for destruction (1Kgs 22:20-22; 1Co 5:5).

2 Thessalonians 2

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Just to cement your point

 

[jimmydiggs]

I believed it was a demon, but I have learned more and believe it was Samuel. That makes more interesting questions about Ouija Boards and Seances though.