Who do you think the Antichrist is?

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M

midwestbob

Guest
#21
205B - The Man Behind The Mask / Total Onslaught - Walter Veith - YouTube

Summed up beautifully and thoroughly, with very informed argument.

Walter Veith.
Which of the following verses is the Roman Church, or Roman Church doctrine guilty of transgressing?


1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

So here we have a video that claims Catholicism is antichrist. Yet as we can see from the above verses Catholicism does not meet the Scriptural definition of antichrists. Instead they show error in Catholic doctrine and then use that coupled with their man made definition of antichrist to condemn Catholicism. Show me which one of the 4 verses that tell us about antichrist says that doctrinal error makes one an antichrist. If it did then all of us would be in trouble. None of us have perfect doctrine.

As for their claim that Catholicism changed times it is ridiculous. Changing the day of worship did not change time Saturday is still Saturday and Sunday is still Sunday. While it is true that the length of the year was changed from 365.25 to 365.2425 days. This change is only Approximately 11 minutes in a year. Had this change not been made we in the northern hemisphere would have seen the coldest months of the year go from being in Jan/Feb to being in July/Aug over the course of about 2400 years. The correction to the calendar is basically the same reason that when the Jews used a 360 day year they occasionally had to add an extra month to keep the seasons matching the calendar. Even with this minor adjustment in the calendar we would still be in the same year2011.

As for as the law goes the Catholics do teach the ten commandments. Some may be guilty of breaking some of those commandments at times (just as people from all faiths do) but that doesn’t make them antichrists, just sinners. We all fall short.

Start with a misconception and build on it and the error will compound. If we use man’s definition of “in place of” or “against” then every one (not just the Catholics) would be antichrist. We have all fallen short, at times we have all gone “against” God and sinned. Does that make us antichrists or does it just prove that we humans (Catholics included) all fall short?.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#22
The future antichrist will have the following characteristics.

1. He will be a world leader. who comes from the "people who destroyed Jerusalem (rome or europe)
2. He will be revealed when he confirms a one week (7 year) covenant with many. promising peace
3. He will have power. doing signs and wonders, and have a false prophet by his side.
4. He will probably be supported by Babylon (The Pagan power of the world, who holds power over many kings)
5. He will commit the abomination of desolation, and declare himself to be the messiah
6. He will go after the woman (Israel) but be prevented by God who protects her. And thus will turn his anger toward the woman's Children (Christians)
7. He will help to destroy babylon. who would now appose him.

8. He and his armys will be destroyed by Christ at his return.
 
M

midwestbob

Guest
#23
]
I stand in the negative. It is up to you to prove your positive assertion from scripture that there IS an Antichrist as you describe it

I assert that there are many antichrists and have provided scriptures

. You claim there is one and give Revelations 13 which has been shown to mean kingdoms not just one man but many. You would like one of the two beast to be "the Antichrist" but have not shown with Scripture your support but only continue to repeat your personal opinion.

therefore the burden of proof is upon you for you claim things not clearly found in scripture.
Excellent post! As you correctly state Rev13 is about two beasts/kingdoms one rises from the sea and one comes up from the earth.
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
 
M

midwestbob

Guest
#24
The future antichrist will have the following characteristics.

1. He will be a world leader. who comes from the "people who destroyed Jerusalem (rome or europe)
2. He will be revealed when he confirms a one week (7 year) covenant with many. promising peace
3. He will have power. doing signs and wonders, and have a false prophet by his side.
4. He will probably be supported by Babylon (The Pagan power of the world, who holds power over many kings)
5. He will commit the abomination of desolation, and declare himself to be the messiah
6. He will go after the woman (Israel) but be prevented by God who protects her. And thus will turn his anger toward the woman's Children (Christians)
7. He will help to destroy babylon. who would now appose him.
8. He and his armys will be destroyed by Christ at his return.
And which of the only 4 verses in Scripture that use the term antichrist or antichrists demonstrate this?
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist

Where is your Scriptural proof?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#25
]

Excellent post! As you correctly state Rev13 is about two beasts/kingdoms one rises from the sea and one comes up from the earth.
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Each beast has a leader. That leader is given power by the dragon. It is he who defiles the inner sanctuary of the temple, and makes war with the saints with his army.
 
M

midwestbob

Guest
#26
Each beast has a leader. That leader is given power by the dragon. It is he who defiles the inner sanctuary of the temple, and makes war with the saints with his army.
That may be what you believe, but it is for from being proof. Can you back up your statement with proof from Scripture?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#27
That may be what you believe, but it is for from being proof. Can you back up your statement with proof from Scripture?
It speaks of both the empire, and the man who rules it.

He was wounded. (the empire was wounded but regained power)
He was worshiped (not the empire, the man who rules the empire) In johns day, The world did not worship the roman empire who ruled the earth, It worshiped the ceasar who was in charge. so this is the picture John would have tried to portray using his language)
He was given power
He speaks blasphemies
He was given authority to have power for 3 1/2 years
He blasphemes the tabernacle, (commits the abomination of desolation) (daniel says this is a future prince who is to come from the people who destroy jerusalem)
He was given power over every tribe, language group and nation
All who dwell on the earth, who are not Gods, will worship him.

Does not sound like a nation to me. Sounds like a world leader.
Sounds like the final "gentile" beast, or empire, who is led by the man of sin.
 
P

peterT

Guest
#28
I stand in the negative. It is up to you to prove your positive assertion from scripture that there IS an Antichrist as you describe it.
it

I assert that there are many antichrists and have provided scriptures

. You claim there is one and give Revelations 13 which has been shown to mean kingdoms not just one man but many. You would like one of the two beast to be "the Antichrist" but have not shown with Scripture your support but only continue to repeat your personal opinion.

therefore the burden of proof is upon you for you claim things not clearly found in scripture.

Yes, as I said you have shown that there are many antichrists and we know that and are not disputing that.


Beasts are known as kingdoms, but thy always had a king and this king had a mind, eyes, and a mouth speaking great things. Even the beast with seven heads in Rv17 the last head in the last days had ten kings.

And the fourth beast in Daniel 7 which is the seventh head of the beast in Rv17. for John said five are fallen, and one is the other is not yet come

Now use this same principal that john used of the beasts in Rv17:10 of Daniel and his beasts.

Two have fallen, on is, and four had not yet come. His four beasts and his last beast with the ten kings becomes the same as john’s beast with the ten kings.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come

As for Rv13 I think it would be like explaining being born again to Nicodemus You ether get it or you don’t.


Out of the beast ten kings come to power, then one more king after the ten. These have one mind; these shall make war with the Lamb. and wear out the saints of the most High, And make war with the saints and prevailed. And HE shall speak [great] words against the most High


Daniel7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
20 And of the ten horns that [were] in his head, and [of] the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even [of] that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look [was] more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Revelation17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.


And these verses are just a fuw, and there are more.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
589
113
#29
The key to understanding Biblical prophecy (especially end-time prophecy as found in the Book of Revelation and Daniel) is found in 1Pet 1v10-12:

"Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."

The Book of Revelation and Daniel will open right up to you (even the difficult chapters, ie. Rev 13 & 17) if you have a deep prayer life...however, if you don't have this deep prayer life you will get little or no truth at all and end-time events will be little understood or not understood at all.

It is the correct interpretation of end-time prophetic truth that will give us light in the dark evil days of the Great Tribulation and help us to come through it with an overcoming faith...Matt 24v12,13,21,33, 2Peter 1v19, Rev 7v14...
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#30
The key to understanding Biblical prophecy (especially end-time prophecy as found in the Book of Revelation and Daniel) is found in 1Pet 1v10-12:

"Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."

The Book of Revelation and Daniel will open right up to you (even the difficult chapters, ie. Rev 13 & 17) if you have a deep prayer life...however, if you don't have this deep prayer life you will get little or no truth at all and end-time events will be little understood or not understood at all.

It is the correct interpretation of end-time prophetic truth that will give us light in the dark evil days of the Great Tribulation and help us to come through it with an overcoming faith...Matt 24v12,13,21,33, 2Peter 1v19, Rev 7v14...
Yes the important thing to see in reading Daniel & Revelation is to see that Christ is the centre of all hope while the antichrist is a false hope
 
M

midwestbob

Guest
#31
It speaks of both the empire, and the man who rules it.
He was wounded. (the empire was wounded but regained power)
He was worshiped (not the empire, the man who rules the empire) In johns day, The world did not worship the roman empire who ruled the earth, It worshiped the ceasar who was in charge. so this is the picture John would have tried to portray using his language)
He was given power
He speaks blasphemies
He was given authority to have power for 3 1/2 years
He blasphemes the tabernacle, (commits the abomination of desolation) (daniel says this is a future prince who is to come from the people who destroy jerusalem)
He was given power over every tribe, language group and nation
All who dwell on the earth, who are not Gods, will worship him.
Does not sound like a nation to me. Sounds like a world leader. Sounds like the final "gentile" beast, or empire, who is led by the man of sin.
Just because it doesn’t sound like a kingdom to you doesn’t prove anything. Just as I could say it sounds like a kingdom wouldn’t prove it is a kingdom. In other words still no Scripture, just assumptions. On the other hand the inspired word of God tells us beasts are kingdoms.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
And history proves God's Word true. Daniel's lion was Babylon, the bear was Medo-Persia and the leopard was Greece.

Can you show where the definition of a beast changed between Daniel and Revelation?

The beast only has 7 heads but there are a total of eight beasts so where is the eighth head?
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.



Now if you don’t mind me asking why do you say “commits the abomination” Scripture tells us the abomination is an “it” that “stands” or is “set up

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days

Mat 24:15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Mar 13:14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
 
M

midwestbob

Guest
#32
Yes the important thing to see in reading Daniel & Revelation is to see that Christ is the centre of all hope while the antichrist is a false hope
According to Scripture antichrist is a spirit or anyone that denies Christ/God. Which one of the following verses say "antichrist is a false hope?
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#33
Both Cain and Abel were to bring a sacrifice Abel's was accepted while Cain's was not. Salvation can only come through Christ which is what the sacrifice pointed to. Cain's offering was salvation by works, he did not follow God's way for salvation but, brought his own offering instead of the one appointed, Cain's offering was in place of the true.

The antichrist is a system in place of the true through which there can be no hope of salvation, while Christ has the true system which brings hope
Revelation 14:7
(7) Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#34
According to Scripture antichrist is a spirit or anyone that denies Christ/God. Which one of the following verses say "antichrist is a false hope?
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Not that hard to see, they deny Christ therefore they deny His salvation, the antichrist is a deceiver, you can only deceive someone if you have something that looks like the true
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
589
113
#35
Yes the important thing to see in reading Daniel & Revelation is to see that Christ is the centre of all hope while the antichrist is a false hope
Daniel and the Book of Revelation gives more than that...

For those willing to seek end-time truth, it gives a detailed account of last days events during the last seven years of this age, but especially the last three and a half years, the period known as The Great Tribulation...
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#36
Daniel and the Book of Revelation gives more than that...

For those willing to seek end-time truth, it gives a detailed account of last days events during the last seven years of this age, but especially the last three and a half years, the period known as The Great Tribulation...
I know that Daniel & Revelation have more info but, if we forget the basic message then we can miss the whole point. I disagree with the 3.5 years being in the future. The 3.5 years is symbolic prophecy and the year/day principle should be used.

[FONT=&quot]The symbolic time periods are always found within the context of apocalyptic passages where symbols predominate. For example, the three and one half times are found in the context of four symbolic beasts, a symbolic sea, symbolic winds, symbolic clouds, symbolic horns, and a symbolic little horn. Similarly, the 1260 days are found in a context where a symbolic woman, clothed with a symbolic sun, stands on a symbolic moon, with 12 symbolic stars on her head. She is persecuted by a symbolic dragon who has seven symbolic heads, ten symbolic horns and who casts a third of the symbolic stars to the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In Revelation 13, the 42 months are found within a context where a symbolic composite beast, with ten symbolic horns, receives its power from a symbolic dragon. It also arises from a symbolic sea and later uses a symbolic image beast to impose a symbolic mark! The same could be said about Daniel 8. There we have a symbolic ram, a symbolic he-goat, and a symbolic little horn. It only stands to reason that if the scenes where these time periods are found in are symbolic, then the time periods must also be symbolic!![/FONT]

 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
589
113
#37
The 3.5 years is symbolic prophecy and the year/day principle should be used...
Unfortunately you are mistaken...

God gave this period of 3½ years in three ways, days (1260), months (42) and years (time, times (dual) and half a time), to convince us that He means just what He has said...

We can see from the number of times that the period of 3½ years is mentioned, that Rev 4v1 to 19v21, is concerned with this period of 3½ years. It is mentioned in Rev 11v2 and 13v5 as 42 months; in Rev 11v3 and 12v6 as 1260 days; and in Rev 12v14. as “a time, times, and half a time.” Dan 12v6,7, 7v25, 9v27. There are no long periods of time mentioned in Rev 4v1 to 19v21. The longest period of time is covered by the seven seals, which reveal the career of Antichrist during the last seven years of this age. Chapters 4 and 5 of Revelation speak of events in Heaven just prior to these last seven years. The only other periods of time mentioned besides the 3½ years, are short periods of time. Rev 6v11, 8v1, 9v5,10,15, 11v14, 18v9,17.

Who decides which dates are symbolic and which are literal? We should accept the time periods God has given to us and not tamper with them. How do you explain the “half hour” of Rev 8v1, and the “five months” and “thirteen months” of Rev 9v5,10,15.? If we fail to interpret Scripture dates literally, we end in utter darkness. Jesus interpreted these 3½ years of Daniel's prophecies literally as the other years in this prophecy, let us follow His example. Dan 9v20-27, Matt 24v15-21.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#38
Unfortunately you are mistaken...

God gave this period of 3½ years in three ways, days (1260), months (42) and years (time, times (dual) and half a time), to convince us that He means just what He has said...

We can see from the number of times that the period of 3½ years is mentioned, that Rev 4v1 to 19v21, is concerned with this period of 3½ years. It is mentioned in Rev 11v2 and 13v5 as 42 months; in Rev 11v3 and 12v6 as 1260 days; and in Rev 12v14. as “a time, times, and half a time.” Dan 12v6,7, 7v25, 9v27. There are no long periods of time mentioned in Rev 4v1 to 19v21. The longest period of time is covered by the seven seals, which reveal the career of Antichrist during the last seven years of this age. Chapters 4 and 5 of Revelation speak of events in Heaven just prior to these last seven years. The only other periods of time mentioned besides the 3½ years, are short periods of time. Rev 6v11, 8v1, 9v5,10,15, 11v14, 18v9,17.

Who decides which dates are symbolic and which are literal? We should accept the time periods God has given to us and not tamper with them. How do you explain the “half hour” of Rev 8v1, and the “five months” and “thirteen months” of Rev 9v5,10,15.? If we fail to interpret Scripture dates literally, we end in utter darkness. Jesus interpreted these 3½ years of Daniel's prophecies literally as the other years in this prophecy, let us follow His example. Dan 9v20-27, Matt 24v15-21.
The prophecy about the 42 months is given in the midst of symbolic prophecy this fact cannot be overlooked. If you think it is literal then you have a problem cause 42 months is not 1260 days
 
Nov 23, 2011
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#39
peterT;608686 said:
Who do you think the Antichrist is?

And do you think HE is alive today?

Love to hear your thoughts and ideas

Who do you think Jesus Christ is? That's a more important, relevant question!

Do you believe Jesus Christ is alive today?

Love to hear your thoughts and ideas.
 
M

midwestbob

Guest
#40
midwestbob;609119 said:
Yes the important thing to see in reading Daniel & Revelation is to see that Christ is the centre of all hope while the antichrist is a false hope
]According to Scripture antichrist is a spirit or anyone that denies Christ/God. Which one of the following verses say "antichrist is a false hope?[/
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Not that hard to see, they deny Christ therefore they deny His salvation, the antichrist is a deceiver, you can only deceive someone if you have something that looks like the true
Sorry but Scripture tells us antichrists are spirits or individual’s who deny Christ/God the verses make no mention of a false hope, nor does it imply denying Christ will provide a false hope.

The antichrist is a system in place of the true through which there can be no hope of salvation, while Christ has the true system which brings hope
Nothing in Scripture says “antichrist is a system in place of….”

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last tim
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


As we can see from the above verses antichrist is a spirit or individual, “not a system in place of”. This belief that antichrist means “in place of” is man’s definition, aren’t we better served using the definition from Scripture?