Who killed Jesus?

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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#21
I've already considered that - but that does not mean that God killed him.
I think it's quite plain.. If God did not want Jesus killed as the passover lamb he would not have ordained it. That may not fit into your view of who God is, but it was God teaches about Himself.

He Sent His son to die. And I am thankful He did.

Do you think God did not send his son to die?

As I say God decreed it and humans 'freely' plotted and killed Him (or I should say God tells us this)
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#22
You also have :

Romans 8:32
He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things?

 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#23
Matt 26:65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy; what do you think?” They answered, “He deserves death!”
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#24
You also have :

Romans 8:32
He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things?

Not sparing his son is still not equivalent to killing him Phil.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#25
Matt 26:65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy; what do you think?” They answered, “He deserves death!”

Definatley, As I say God decreed it and Humans freely' plotted and killed Him - God tells us tis:

This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. Acts 2:23

Romans 8:32
He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things?

Plus the verses provided showing the plotting to Kill Jesus.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#26
Not sparing his son is still not equivalent to killing him Phil.

What does the Old Testament say:

10
But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand Isaiah 53:10.

700 or so years before.

 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#27
We need to grasp that it was Gods plan (acts 2:23). For it was His plan of atonement. God indeed plan that His Son would be the sacrifice and the Son willingly and lovingly obeyed unto death.

New International Version
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

God Sending His Son to die in our place ..is the greatest love.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#28
What does the Old Testament say:

10
But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand Isaiah 53:10.

That still does not equate to killing him.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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#29
So if a court orders the death penalty for a person is the guy that pulls the switch on the electric chair the party responsible or the judge/court?
In the states that still have the death penalty there are usually two phases of the trial. The verdict and then the penalty phase if the death penalty is on the table. It depends on the state. The legislature or congress decide what penalties are for the different crimes. The jury determines guilt. The judge sometimes in cooperation with the jury decides the penalty. The prison then executes the sentence. The real person responsible is the criminal. They chose the path that led to the penalty!! As Beretta said. "Don't do the crime if you can't stand the time." I loved that series.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#30
That still does not equate to killing him.

Did God decide Jesus was going to be our atonement?

I don't want an answer Locutus, but just reread the biblical texts that Describe God ordaining and crushing Him, and the humans who plotted and crucified him.

Ask your self about the atonement.. was it a dead cert that it was going to happen or was it just chance, maybe God hoped that humans would do it?

Anyhow, have a good evening Locutus.
 
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Mar 28, 2016
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#31
I would offer..

The suffering of the Son of man was not attributed to the Satan inspired crowd as that seen. They like the disciples have no part in the work of salvation. Christ of his own volition gave up the ghost.. it returned to the father who gave it for the one time demonstration. The blood, absent of spirit life it returned to the dust from where it was taken .

The belly of the whale described as the heart of the earth is in respect to a living suffering . The dead body of Son of man showed of the that spirit life was given by the father which was needed to finish the spiritual work before the Son of God could of his own volition return .

The Son of man suffered unto death God cannot die. The father strengthened the Son of God to finish the mutual work of salvation... working in perfect mutual submission to one another as that which together brings the peace of God that does surpass all human understanding.

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Luk 22:42

The phrase above ....”as it were” above denotes a parable is in view, by sweat it shows he was working as the father afflicted the Son as if it were drops of blood.

Blood is used as a metaphor in parables to represent the pouring out of His Spirit on flesh, the promise . Literal blood without the spirit has no spirit life to offer.

The work of salvation is after no man .

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God,(not by the satan inspired crowd) and afflicted.But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Isa 53:4-11
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#32
So did God not send Jesus to His death?
No I don't Phil - he allowed it just as he allowed Adam to eat of tree of knowledge of good and evil. Which good foresaw in both cases.

I've seen this argument stretched before to claim that every man killed Christ.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#33
According to the will of the Heavenly Father
Jesus went willingly
Roman soldiers carried it out
Roman leadership ordered it to satisfy the Jews
Jewish religious leadership plotted it and pushed for it
ALL are guilty because it was for the sins of the whole world
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#34
So did God not send Jesus to His death?

I think he sent Him to give spirit life in jeopardy of His own Spirit.The Son of God cannot die .That death was attributed to the Son of man as that seen.It showed spirit life was given

In parables it is referred to as drinking the blood of men.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#35
According to the will of the Heavenly Father
Jesus went willingly
Roman soldiers carried it out
Roman leadership ordered it to satisfy the Jews
Jewish religious leadership plotted it and pushed for it
ALL are guilty because it was for the sins of the whole world
This. This here. Thats it.

If we didnt have sin this would not have had to happen...
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#36
No I don't Phil - he allowed it just as he allowed Adam to eat of tree of knowledge of good and evil. Which good foresaw in both cases.

I've seen this argument stretched before to claim that every man killed Christ.

Ah i see the problem problem here,. God's Sovereignty.



Anyhow, Just ask a few questions..

1) Who Commanded that the bull/goats/pigeons etc, willed be killed as a sacrifice? who did it?

2) Who commanded the passover lamb to be Killed? and who did it?

It wasn't mans choice to send the Son to die for us thats what your statement really implies....man himself decided the son will die!. The texts don't see he foresaw it..He ordained it.

Anyhow have a good evening.
 
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Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#37
Nothing to do with God's sovereignty in regards to God killing his Son my opinion Phil.

Good night - getting late over there.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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#38
No I don't Phil - he allowed it just as he allowed Adam to eat of tree of knowledge of good and evil. Which good foresaw in both cases.

I've seen this argument stretched before to claim that every man killed Christ.
God knowing the end from the begining knew as he created the heavens and earth knew that He as Jesus would have to die on the cross to take the sins of those believing in Jesus on Himself. Thus paying the penalty for sins. Boiled down that is the gospel message.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#39
God knowing the end from the begining knew as he created the heavens and earth knew that He as Jesus would have to die on the cross to take the sins of those believing in Jesus on Himself. Thus paying the penalty for sins. Boiled down that is the gospel message.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 46:10, “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from of old that which has not yet been done, saying, ‘My counsel does stand, and all My delight I do.”[/FONT]



The Gospel Told by YHWH...

The 7 Feast Days are the gospel as told by YHWH

*fulfilled already

*to be fulfilled in the future

The Sabbath and all 7 Feast days are about the works of Yahshua, prophetically shown. The 1[SUP]st[/SUP] 3 displayed in the spring Feasts, Messiah as the suffering Lamb, the final 4 are about His return as a Lion, starting with Feast of Trumpets, marking the return of Yahshua, the day that no man knows the day or hour… because the Feast of Trumpets occurs on the sighting of the new moon, something NASA can not predict with 100% accuracy. The Feasts are \called “moadim” in hebrew, and has a very interesting definition;

Psalm 104:19, "You appointed the moon for setting the appointed times. The sun knows its going down."

appointed times is word #H4150 - Original Word: מוֹעֵד, Part of Speech: Noun Masculine, Transliteration: moed, Phonetic Spelling: (mo-ade'), Short Definition: meeting, Word Origin from yaad, Definition - appointed time, place, or meeting

1 Thessalonians 5:1, "But concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need that I should write to you."

1. Passover/First-fruits – Yahshua's death, burial and resurrection

2. Feast of Unleavened Bread – Removal of sin by Yahshua's work

3. Feast of Weeks – The Holy Spirit of YHWH coming into our lives

4. Feast of Trumpets – Yahshua's return

5. Day of Atonement – Yahshua leads the army of YHWH to destroy evil rulers of this world and satan is chained for 1,000 years

6. Feast of Tabernacles – Yahshua dwells on earth for 1,000 years

7. The Last Great Day – satan is loosed and swiftly destroyed, the Kingdom of YHWH reigns forever


1. Passover/First-fruits – Yahshua's death, burial and resurrection

1Peter/Kepha 1:18, “knowing that you were redeemed from your futile way of life inherited from your fathers, not with what is corruptible, silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless.”

Hebrews 9:11-12, "But the Messiah came near as a High Priest over the righteous things to come, with the great and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation; Nor through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once, for all, having obtained eternal redemption."

1 Corinthians 5:7-8, "Therefore cleanse out the old leaven, so that you are a new lump, as you are unleavened. For also Messiah our Passover was offered for us. So then let us observe the festival, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of evil and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."