Why Churches are Divided

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Elizabeth619

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
#21
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
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#21
Woman preachers...

Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. 1 Cor 14:34,35

Am I misinterpretting this?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#22
#22
Elizabeth619 said:
Woman preachers...

Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. 1 Cor 14:34,35

Am I misinterpretting this?
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depends. Historical context might help. If a woman spake in that culture it would offend anyone who was not a Christ. Paul always said be all things to all people. Do not offend them by doing things even if you are free to do it by grace.

What of a culture where women are aloud to speak, and it would not offend anyone? would this go for them also?

that is why I am undecided.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#23
#23
Elizabeth619 said:
Woman preachers...

Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. 1 Cor 14:34,35

Am I misinterpretting this?
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why do people ignore the "IF THEY WANT TO LEARN SOMETHING" part?

kind of implies they aren't preaching but asking a bunch of annoying questions to me....would kind of be shameful if they stand up and kept questioning all the presenters trying to get them all tripped up and stuff...

also the prophetess Anna spoke in front of the temple about Jesus and no one reprimanded or stopped her.. what about Deborah?

I think there is a difference between women asking questions and women preaching.

if Anna isn't preaching the Gospel I don't know what is:

Luke 2

36 Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; 37 and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And coming in that instant she gave thanks to the Lord,[j] and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#24
#24
AnandaHya said:
why do people ignore the "IF THEY WANT TO LEARN SOMETHING" part?

kind of implies they aren't preaching but asking a bunch of annoying questions to me....would kind of be shameful if they stand up and kept questioning all the presenters trying to get them all tripped up and stuff...
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At the end of every church service in my church (either Sunday central teaching or individual home church teachings) we open up to the audience for questions or comments. Women are aloud and encouraged to ask questions. I see nothing unbilical about this.
 
Elizabeth619

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
#25
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
#25
eternally-gratefull said:
depends. Historical context might help. If a woman spake in that culture it would offend anyone who was not a Christ. Paul always said be all things to all people. Do not offend them by doing things even if you are free to do it by grace.

What of a culture where women are aloud to speak, and it would not offend anyone? would this go for them also?

that is why I am undecided.
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Then I guess we have to determine what is biblical and cultural.

1 Cor 11:13 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God

1 Tim 2:11-14 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#26
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#26
Elizabeth619 said:
Woman preachers...

Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. 1 Cor 14:34,35

Am I misinterpretting this?
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here's the larger context...these folks, like all the very first churches right after Pentecost were using the foundational gifts they received from God, i.e: the miraculously spoken gentile languages, etc.,

Paul is continuing in a corrective letter concerning reports of the chaos they had going on there.
you see that it is in the context of PROPHECY (the real kind they were receiving) that the women are not permitted to prophecy in church. they DID have women receiving new revelation by prophetic gifts (Philip's 4 daughters/Anna). But Paul is clear they are not permitted to speak at all during these meetings.

so, i take that to mean just what it says.

and that would include no women preachers.


1 Corinthains 14
Prophecy and Tongues
1Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 2For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 5Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

6Now, brothers,a if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? 7If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? 8And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. 10There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, 11but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. 12So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

13Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. 16Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsiderb say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. 18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

20Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature. 21In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” 22Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a signc not for unbelievers but for believers. 23If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds? 24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

Orderly Worship
26What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. 27If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. 29Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. 31For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, 32and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

As in all the churches of the saints, 34the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
36Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? 37If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. 38If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. 39So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But all things should be done decently and in order.
 
Elizabeth619

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
#27
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
#27
eternally-gratefull said:
At the end of every church service in my church (either Sunday central teaching or individual home church teachings) we open up to the audience for questions or comments. Women are aloud and encouraged to ask questions. I see nothing unbilical about this.
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I was always told that it is ok for a woman to speak out as long as she is not doing so in authority. I see nothing wrong with a woman asking questions either. How can you l earn if you do not ask questions.

Bible also tells man and wife to teach each other. In Titus I believe.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#28
#28
Elizabeth619 said:
Then I guess we have to determine what is biblical and cultural.

1 Cor 11:13 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God

1 Tim 2:11-14 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
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There is a huge difference between a woman having authority over a man. and a woman asking questions. or making comments. or teaching. wouldn't you say? or am I mistaken??
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#30
#30
Elizabeth619 said:
I was always told that it is ok for a woman to speak out as long as she is not doing so in authority. I see nothing wrong with a woman asking questions either. How can you l earn if you do not ask questions.

Bible also tells man and wife to teach each other. In Titus I believe.
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amen. I agree. We also have women teach our home church service. There are 5 us us, 2 are women. we take turns teaching sequentially through the bible. I see nothing wrong with this either.
 
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AnandaHya

Guest
#31
#31
1 timothy 2 only applies to the women who are married and joined with a man through the holy vows and we are not to submit to ALL men but to our husbands who is in turn suppose to submit to Christ.


1 Corinthians 7:34
There is a difference between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman cares about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she who is married cares about the things of the world—how she may please her husband.

and through Adam sin was allowed into the world but praise God through Christ we have deliverance.....

Romans 5:13-15
New King James Version (NKJV)
13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
 
D

DiscipleWilliam

Guest
#32
#32
Elizabeth619 said:
Churches did not get divided because of what is in the Bible, but over things that are not authorized (or even mentioned) in the Bible. God is perfect, and His will doesn't need man-made enhancements. Here are some examples.


No scripture
Not Scriptual
Belief that the "Sinner's Prayer" saves
Benevolent, educational, & missionary societies
Church buses used for entertainment
Church cafeterias (fellowship halls)
Church choirs
Church gymnasiums and Life Centers
Instrumental music (No N.T. scriptures)
Youth ministries and directors



Discuss....

(Keep in mind this may or may not reflect my views. I am just creating the thread. You all have every right to agree or oppose.)
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Greetings Beth,

I don't believe any of the issues listed in green are reasons why Churches have been divided historically, except for arguably the "sinners prayer" issue. And in that case the controversy would hinge upon who makes the first move in salvation, God or man. Is the person coming on his/her own accord because of a personal decision they "chose" to make and thus claiming something that he/she feels rightfully deserves; or is he/she approaching the throne of God because He first called them in His sovereignty, convicted them of their wretchedness, and illuminated them of the reality of eternal condemnation for unforgiven sin? I agree that the "sinners prayer" doesn't save, but I don't believe there's anything wrong with a "sinners prayer" if its actuated out of the comprehension of grace, the realisation of the sovereignty of God, and the condemnation of unforgiven sin. All of us at some point in time have prayed along the lines of, "Dear Lord I'm a sinner..." the problem lies when a person is doing this out of personal guilt apart from repentance, with a belief that they can selfishly change their own heart on their own accord and are just doing it to help themselves instead of realising its God doing it for those who cannot help themselves.
 
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AnandaHya

Guest
#33
#33
eternally-gratefull said:
There is a huge difference between a woman having authority over a man. and a woman asking questions. or making comments. or teaching. wouldn't you say? or am I mistaken??
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what does it mean to authority over another person?

i have to go back and read zone's post now lol it wasn't there when I was typing earlier....

ok the key of the passage I see is that God speaks to EVERYONE and it is not needed for women to prophecies because EVERYONE receives the message through the Holy SPirit....


36Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached?

just as everyone gets the message it is only needed for two or three to speak and men really need the encouragement ;)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#35
#35
AnandaHya said:
what does it mean to authority over another person?

i have to go back and read zone's post now lol it wasn't there when I was typing earlier....
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Having authority means you have the final say in any matter.

A woman is to be the mans help meat, and help him make decisions. But the man is held accountable to the decisions which are being made. So he would be the one to make the final decision. The woman could go over the man's head and decide on her own to "trump" his authority. But even if she was right, she would be in sin.

The same with the church. We are to be held under the authority of Christ. But if we decide to trump Christ and make our own decision.l We are in sin. (although in this case. we would never be right)
 
Elizabeth619

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
#36
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
#36
Belief that the "Sinner's Prayer" saves

When it comes to the Sinner's Prayer I THINK this could be in reference to an actual recited prayer. My belief is if you recite something it is not comgin from your heart. When you pray it should come from your heart. My prayers are different from the next persons prayer. So I do not think that a RECITED Sinner's Prayer is the way to go....also. I do believe that baptism saves. Having your sins "washed away" is required. According to how I believe.

Benevolent, educational, & missionary societies
Uhhhh. If they are referring to a society that is PRIVATE and separet from the church like the Masons then no. That is not scriptual

Church buses used for entertainment
Depends on what the entertainment is.

Church cafeterias (fellowship halls)
I see nothing wrong with it.

Church choirs
The only arguement I have with this is when it comes to choirs in worship service. EVERYONE should sing. Not just a choir.

Church gymnasiums and Life Centers
Like I said before..we have one of those at my church.

Instrumental music (No N.T. scriptures)
Nothing in the NT scriptures supports instruments in worship. I do not believe it to be sinful though. Just not necessary in worship.

Youth ministries and directors
I have already touched on this one in an earlier post and I am too lazy to repeat it.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#37
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#37
DiscipleWilliam said:
Greetings Beth,

I don't believe any of the issues listed in green are reasons why Churches have been divided historically, except for arguably the "sinners prayer" issue. And in that case the controversy would hinge upon who makes the first move in salvation, God or man. Is the person coming on his/her own accord because of a personal decision they "chose" to make and thus claiming something that he/she feels rightfully deserves; or is he/she approaching the throne of God because He first called them in His sovereignty, convicted them of their wretchedness, and illuminated them of the reality of eternal condemnation for unforgiven sin? I agree that the "sinners prayer" doesn't save, but I don't believe there's anything wrong with a "sinners prayer" if its actuated out of the comprehension of grace, the realisation of the sovereignty of God, and the condemnation of unforgiven sin. All of us at some point in time have prayed along the lines of, "Dear Lord I'm a sinner..." the problem lies when a person is doing this out of personal guilt apart from repentance, with a belief that they can selfishly change their own heart on their own accord and are just doing it to help themselves instead of realising its God doing it for those who cannot help themselves.
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william!!

where'd you get that AVATAR! *mini-covet* LOVE IT!!!:D
 
Red33

Red33

Banned
#38
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
#38
Here is a sinners's prayer right in the sciptures. Now tell me, did this man get saved and was he justified when he prayed?

Lk 18:10-14

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

When this sinner asked for mercy, did God give him mercy? YES He did. Do you think that when sinners pray today and ask God to be merciful to them as sinners that God would withholds his mercy because they really did not mean it? HOGWASH. Ask and you shall recieve.

Lk 11:9-13
9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

These are sure words of God's promises and will He not fulfill them (1Kngs 8:56, 2Cor 1:20, Titus 1:2, 2Pt 1:19)? If a sinner asks God for mercy for his sin will not God give him mercy and justify him through that mercy? The scriptures says He does, so why don't other believe that?
 
R

Rosewater

Guest
#39
#39
Elizabeth619 said:
Churches did not get divided because of what is in the Bible,
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No, because everyone agrees what's in the Bible:rolleyes:

The first split and ex-communication from the Church occurs in the Bible on a dispute of what's in the Bible, namely circumcision. See Acts 15.
 
dscherck

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
#40
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#40
eternally-gratefull said:
Church creeds (Matthew 15:9)

As long as they are scriptural and not held above scripture. do not see a problem.
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Amen

Faith in the preacher rather than the scriptures (2 Timothy 4:3,4)

lol. many will be led astray by this major church problem
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Amen to that too.

Once saved, always saved (also known as perseverance of the saints) (James 5:19-20)

Eternal life is eternal. or God lied.

God says he would never leave us nor forsake us. If he leaves us, or forsakes us for any reason. He lied.
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God won't forsake us, but we can certainly forsake Him. Our ancestor Adam had the gift of eternal life and threw it aside. What makes you think we aren't capable of doing the same? It is the one who perseveres to the end that is saved.

Unconditional election (also commonly called predestination)
(1 Timothy 2:4)

God calls for all to come to him. He is willing that none should parish but all would have eternal life. It is also unconditional, unless we return to the law.
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I'll concur. God wants us all to be saved, and freely offers us ALL the gift of eternal life. But we are also free to reject that gift.


Women preachers (1 Timothy 2:12)

Undecided. I know many women who could give the word and win many to Christ.
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Throughout history there have been many devout women who lead many people to Christ, including several instances where a woman led an entire nation to the Lord. That said, I'm coming from a Catholic viewpoint in that there is no real problem with women teaching, but when it comes to selecting priests to offer the Eucharistic sacrifice, it's a job for men.
 
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