WHY DID JAMES NOT WRITE ABOUT THE WORK OF CHRIST?

[eternally-gratefull]

Then you would have to take the rest of the book of James as spiritual teaching and cannot be taken literal. I take James literal, and he's writing to the twelve tribes scattered abroad. There's a reason why the book of James falls after Paul's writings to the body of Christ. The twelve tribes will be scattered abroad during the tribulation(after the Church Age) and will need help persevering through this time of Jacob's trouble. James is definitely not writing to saved people only for he tells them in James 1 to receive the word of God which will save their souls.

No, I disagree, We can take it literal. and know it was written to the church.

Men put james after Paul. It is not assured God did, The way books are put in the word are not inspired. It is just the way men decided to put them together along time ago.. To say this should be a means to interpret would be dangerous.

James was written before Paul (thus most likely before any gentile churches were started, or really got off the ground and were considered churches).

His audience is a group of people who grew up with religion. Who grew up with rules and regulations, and being told. This is the way you get right with God. Now all those things are being destroyed, God has declared, that is not the way you do it, In fact, that has never been the way, Your fathers got it wrong.

It would be EASY to take religion, and find your freedom to go live in sin, It would be easy (especially for them, who were enslaved to the law) to take their freedom and go the opposite way (towards being hearers and not doers,) Just look at people who have come out of DEEP DEEP religious, legalistic churches, who spend a few years in sin (heck I am one of them) because someone showed them, they did not have to maintain this left of perfection to get saved, or they realised they could never stand up to this level. so why try.

That is what James wrote about.. And why his words are written the way they are

Paul wrote to fight legalism, Faith not works saved.

James wrote to fight off easy believing, Faith apart from works is dead..

They both teach the same message The audience is different..

 

[Grandpa]

Then you would have to take the rest of the book of James as spiritual teaching and cannot be taken literal.

Why is that?

I take James literal, and he's writing to the twelve tribes scattered abroad. There's a reason why the book of James falls after Paul's writings to the body of Christ. The twelve tribes will be scattered abroad during the tribulation(after the Church Age) and will need help persevering through this time of Jacob's trouble. James is definitely not writing to saved people only for he tells them in James 1 to receive the word of God which will save their souls.

I keep trying to read James as if it were to literal unsaved Jews but I just don't see it.

I see James as a tempering of Gods people who MIGHT think that Grace is a license to entertain anything they want to.

Keeping in mind that we are saved by Grace and that we produce fruit by abiding in Christ we should be able to tell others what the outcome of that would look like, without placing them under the works of the law. I think that is what James is doing. (trying to do?)

 

[John146]

No, I disagree, We can take it literal. and know it was written to the church.

Men put james after Paul. It is not assured God did, The way books are put in the word are not inspired. It is just the way men decided to put them together along time ago.. To say this should be a means to interpret would be dangerous.

James was written before Paul (thus most likely before any gentile churches were started, or really got off the ground and were considered churches).

His audience is a group of people who grew up with religion. Who grew up with rules and regulations, and being told. This is the way you get right with God. Now all those things are being destroyed, God has declared, that is not the way you do it, In fact, that has never been the way, Your fathers got it wrong.

It would be EASY to take religion, and find your freedom to go live in sin, It would be easy (especially for them, who were enslaved to the law) to take their freedom and go the opposite way (towards being hearers and not doers,) Just look at people who have come out of DEEP DEEP religious, legalistic churches, who spend a few years in sin (heck I am one of them) because someone showed them, they did not have to maintain this left of perfection to get saved, or they realised they could never stand up to this level. so why try.

That is what James wrote about.. And why his words are written the way they are

Paul wrote to fight legalism, Faith not works saved.

James wrote to fight off easy believing, Faith apart from works is dead..

They both teach the same message The audience is different..

When Scripture uses the term, "twelve tribes", it is always a reference to the nation of Israel as a whole and never a called out part of that nation. Using it to mean Christian Jews would contradict every other usage in the Bible.

Also, at least part of the audience is not saved for he tells them to receive with meekness the engrafted word which is able to save their souls.

Read chapter 4. I take the words literally. Most commentaries will spiritualize chapter 4 because they can't handle what Jame is saying. This is not talking to the body of Christ.

And yes, I believe God placed the books of His Bible in a specific order as things occur chronologically.

 

[Grandpa]

When Scripture uses the term, "twelve tribes", it is always a reference to the nation of Israel as a whole and never a called out part of that nation. Using it to mean Christian Jews would contradict every other usage in the Bible.

You keep saying that.

Can you show in scripture where "The Twelve tribes scattered abroad" is used?

Not just twelve tribes. The actual phrase "the twelve tribes scattered abroad".

 

[Chester]

A quick response to the opening post on this thread:

I can see how it could be argued that the book of James says little about the "work of Christ", though some have done a good job of showing that the book is clearly based on the "work of Christ".

But even if it does not speak much about the "work of Christ", that gives no grounds to make an assumption such as "How come that An apostle who did not even believe in Christ during His earthly ministry . . ."

It is not fair interpretation to assume someone does not believe something because it is not mentioned in a short five chapter book (letter).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When Scripture uses the term, "twelve tribes", it is always a reference to the nation of Israel as a whole and never a called out part of that nation. Using it to mean Christian Jews would contradict every other usage in the Bible.

Also, at least part of the audience is not saved for he tells them to receive with meekness the engrafted word which is able to save their souls.

Read chapter 4. I take the words literally. Most commentaries will spiritualize chapter 4 because they can't handle what Jame is saying. This is not talking to the body of Christ.

And yes, I believe God placed the books of His Bible in a specific order as things occur chronologically.

James was a jew, And he wrote to his fellow countrymen, and warned them to not go from one extreme to the next. Nothing more nothing less..

In your view. one could say OT has nothing to do with the church, and we should not read any of it..

ps. God did not place the books in the bible. MAN DID. The bible in pauls day was a collection of scrolls.. most likely sitting in a shelf in no particular order. Not a printed book.

 

[John146]

James was a jew, And he wrote to his fellow countrymen, and warned them to not go from one extreme to the next. Nothing more nothing less..

In your view. one could say OT has nothing to do with the church, and we should not read any of it..

ps. God did not place the books in the bible. MAN DID. The bible in pauls day was a collection of scrolls.. most likely sitting in a shelf in no particular order. Not a printed book.

When it comes to His word, I believe God had His hand in everything.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When it comes to His word, I believe God had His hand in everything.

He also allows things to happen, and they have no meaning. Which makes it dangerous to think there is meaning..

Part of hermeneutics is to take historical context into account


Who did he write to
Why did he write it to them
When did he right it.

All of these are important. If james wrote this letter long after the church had been established,, Most likely, he never would have wrote it the way he did, or adress just his fellow countrymen.

 

[garee]

A quick response to the opening post on this thread:

I can see how it could be argued that the book of James says little about the "work of Christ", though some have done a good job of showing that the book is clearly based on the "work of Christ".

But even if it does not speak much about the "work of Christ", that gives no grounds to make an assumption such as "How come that An apostle who did not even believe in Christ during His earthly ministry . . ."

It is not fair interpretation to assume someone does not believe something because it is not mentioned in a short five chapter book (letter).

Yes James uses the faith of God that comes from hearing Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God , as a work of faith or labor of His love that does work in us to both will and do His good pleasure, as a imputed work of faith .

It reconciles Christ’s work of faith given to us in as a free gift in Ephesians 2 .Not of our selves

To claim the faith by which we can believe God is of another other than Christ is to blaspheme the Holy name by which we are called by. Blasphemy is to accredit the work of one, to another . We are to have no gods before him in that way.

It would show us we are obeying the commandment given at the beginning of James chapter 2

Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Those who do not believe the commandment by believing God .

Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

We are saved by one work of faith never in respect to the creature. It is by His works that make His faith perfect/complete .

We can see it working in Abraham in that parable using Isaacto both will and do His good pleasure .Not in respect to a righteousness we could earn.

In the end of the matter It is “whose faith” makes the work complete/perfect .

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how (Christ’s) faith wrought with his works, and by works was (Christ’s) faith made perfect? Jam 2:21

 

[John146]

You keep saying that.

Can you show in scripture where "The Twelve tribes scattered abroad" is used?

Not just twelve tribes. The actual phrase "the twelve tribes scattered abroad".

The audience is the twelve tribes. It is always, without exception, a reference to the whole nation of Israel. (The whole nation of Israel is scattered abroad. When? Tribulation.)

Genesis 49:28, Exodus 24:4, Ezekiel 47:13
Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30, Revelation 21:12 and

Acts 26
4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:
7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

Never, in any instance does the "twelve tribes" refer to anything other than the whole nation. In order to make James use it like this, you'd have to contradict every other usage.

Whenever Christians out of the twelve tribes are referred to, they are clearly designated apart from the twelve tribes. Saved Jews are referred to as the "remnant", Romans 9:27;11:5; the Israel of God, Galatians 6:16; believing Jews in Romans 1:16.

Next, James makes it clear that unsaved Jews are part of his audience. He tells those he is writing to that they should "receive with meekness" the word of God because it is "able to save your souls." James 1:21. It is clear that there were those in James' intended audience who had not yet received the word of God and their souls were not saved.

James is a Jewish epistle with a Jewish audience. Students of Scripture have never been successful with making James a Christian epistle. They've always had to reason away the text. Luther had such a tough time trying to make it mesh with Paul that he downgraded it to subcanonical status and called James a "right strawy epistle" stating he would like to light his stove with its' pages.

The book of James can be very frustrating unless you do one of two things:
1. Force it to conform to Christian doctrine through crafty reasoning and sly exposition.
2. Understand its intended audience and Jewish content for God physical kingdom people living in the tribulation.

 

[John146]

He also allows things to happen, and they have no meaning. Which makes it dangerous to think there is meaning..

Part of hermeneutics is to take historical context into account


Who did he write to
Why did he write it to them
When did he right it.

All of these are important. If james wrote this letter long after the church had been established,, Most likely, he never would have wrote it the way he did, or adress just his fellow countrymen.

We know that James was written before Paul's epistles but placed after Paul. The twelve tribes is the twelve tribes no matter what time period.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The audience is the twelve tribes. It is always, without exception, a reference to the whole nation of Israel. (The whole nation of Israel is scattered abroad. When? Tribulation.)

Genesis 49:28, Exodus 24:4, Ezekiel 47:13
Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30, Revelation 21:12 and

Acts 26
4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:
7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

Never, in any instance does the "twelve tribes" refer to anything other than the whole nation. In order to make James use it like this, you'd have to contradict every other usage.

Whenever Christians out of the twelve tribes are referred to, they are clearly designated apart from the twelve tribes. Saved Jews are referred to as the "remnant", Romans 9:27;11:5; the Israel of God, Galatians 6:16; believing Jews in Romans 1:16.

Next, James makes it clear that unsaved Jews are part of his audience. He tells those he is writing to that they should "receive with meekness" the word of God because it is "able to save your souls." James 1:21. It is clear that there were those in James' intended audience who had not yet received the word of God and their souls were not saved.

James is a Jewish epistle with a Jewish audience. Students of Scripture have never been successful with making James a Christian epistle. They've always had to reason away the text. Luther had such a tough time trying to make it mesh with Paul that he downgraded it to subcanonical status and called James a "right strawy epistle" stating he would like to light his stove with its' pages.

The book of James can be very frustrating unless you do one of two things:
1. Force it to conform to Christian doctrine through crafty reasoning and sly exposition.
2. Understand its intended audience and Jewish content for God physical kingdom people living in the tribulation.

Why is it so hard? Why can not james be meshed with paul apart from being written to the jews?

It is easy to establish james and make it mesh with paul. Thake the context of what he is writing it

Making it jewish does not help at all. unless you make jews under a different gospel than the rest of the world.. in which case you have more serious issues than making James a letter applicable to all people.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We know that James was written before Paul's epistles but placed after Paul.

The church placed it after paul, The same church that would gtell you there are 6 books missing.

The twelve tribes is the twelve tribes no matter what time period.

It does not change the truth that James letter is just as applicable to us today as it was in paul's day.

 

[John146]

The church placed it after paul, The same church that would gtell you there are 6 books missing.



It does not change the truth that James letter is just as applicable to us today as it was in paul's day.

Take at James 2. Abraham's justification was applied in Genesis 15, but that justification wasn't fulfilled until Genesis 22. That is the point James is making.

James 2:23: And the scripture was FULFILLED which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God.

James is showing that Genesis 15:6 was not completed until Abraham offered up Isaac. Remember, that the one Abraham was proving himself to on top of that mountain was God, not other men. He was not "justified before men" up there as most commentaries falsely claim. On that mountain God said, "now I KNOW that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." Genesis 22:12.

The question James is asking in James 2 is not "will works follow faith." The question is "Can faith save him?" James 2:14.

Paul is very clear what the answer to that question is for born again Christians in the church age. "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Romans 4:5.

Paul is very clear that the faith that saved him has no works attached to it whatsoever. In fact, saving faith is by definition, without works.

The faith that justified me was not my faith. It was the faith of Jesus Christ.

Philippians 3:9, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Abraham did not have the faith of Christ. It wasn't even available to him according to Paul in Galatians 3:22-25. James is taking you back to OT times where a man lived by his own individual faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Take at James 2. Abraham's justification was applied in Genesis 15, but that justification wasn't fulfilled until Genesis 22. That is the point James is making.

James 2:23: And the scripture was FULFILLED which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God.

James is showing that Genesis 15:6 was not completed until Abraham offered up Isaac. Remember, that the one Abraham was proving himself to on top of that mountain was God, not other men. He was not "justified before men" up there as most commentaries falsely claim. On that mountain God said, "now I KNOW that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." Genesis 22:12.

The question James is asking in James 2 is not "will works follow faith." The question is "Can faith save him?" James 2:14.

Paul is very clear what the answer to that question is for born again Christians in the church age. "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Romans 4:5.

Paul is very clear that the faith that saved him has no works attached to it whatsoever. In fact, saving faith is by definition, without works.

The faith that justified me was not my faith. It was the faith of Jesus Christ.

Philippians 3:9, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Abraham did not have the faith of Christ. It wasn't even available to him according to Paul in Galatians 3:22-25. James is taking you back to OT times where a man lived by his own individual faith.

Mind if I ask where you got this from? I have read many things about james, but have never read this account.

No. I disagree. James was not telling us that Abraham's faith was fulfilled until Gen 22. He said Abraham was declared righteous as God declared in in Gen 15. How can we know Abraham faith was real? He did all he did (his work PROVED HIS FAITH) not that his work made his faith real.

James context was to hearers of the word not doers. People who claimed to have faith, but would not even do the word of God in the simple things, so did they really have true saving faith?

James said, Put your words to the test. I will prove to you my faith by my works.. Just like Abraham did When he proved his faith was real when he offered up his son.

If your claim you have faiht, but have no work, your faith is dead, Can your faith save you? No.

why? because you have no works? No, Because YOU HAVE NO FAITH.

Paul told the Ephesian church, you were saved by faith apart from works,, But once you are saved, you are created for good works TO DO THEM.

If you have no faith, You are not saved, If your not saved, You will not have the works Paul said you would do in EPh 2: 10.

There you have it, Paul and James are united..

 

[Chester]

If your claim you have faiht, but have no work, your faith is dead, Can your faith save you? No.

why? because you have no works? No, Because YOU HAVE NO FAITH.

Paul told the Ephesian church, you were saved by faith apart from works,, But once you are saved, you are created for good works TO DO THEM.

If you have no faith, You are not saved, If your not saved, You will not have the works Paul said you would do in EPh 2: 10.

There you have it, Paul and James are united..

Exactly! I Agree Completely!

 

[John146]

Mind if I ask where you got this from? I have read many things about james, but have never read this account.

No. I disagree. James was not telling us that Abraham's faith was fulfilled until Gen 22. He said Abraham was declared righteous as God declared in in Gen 15. How can we know Abraham faith was real? He did all he did (his work PROVED HIS FAITH) not that his work made his faith real.

James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

I'm pretty sure Scripture tells us that what Abraham believed in Genesis 15 was not fulfilled until seven chapters later in 22 when Abraham offered Isaac as a sacrifice.

 

[John146]

If your claim you have faiht, but have no work, your faith is dead, Can your faith save you? No.

why? because you have no works? No, Because YOU HAVE NO FAITH.

Again, I'm not justified by my faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ. Can the faith of Christ save me? Yes and it has. Where's the evidence of Christ's faith? In His obedience unto death, even the death of the cross.

My individual faith is my labor or works that will be judged at the JSOC. My works will be tried as to what sort they were. At the JSOC there will be believers in Christ that have no works. Their works will be burned up through fire, but they will be saved.

 

[John146]

Paul told the Ephesian church, you were saved by faith apart from works,, But once you are saved, you are created for good works TO DO THEM.

Yes, that you should walk in them. It's a choice for the believer. That's why Paul tried to persuade believers to labor for the Lord because of the coming judgment where works will be tried.

2 Corinthians 5
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

 

[John146]

There you have it, Paul and James are united..

Fitting the square peg in the round hole...