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K
I went to two baptist churches, the first one was Mount Washington Baptist which was a baptist church that was trying to break away from the strict southern baptist traditions. They still kept some of those traditions like you had to be nicely dressed, no jeans and t-shirts, 10% tithing, and looking down on others when they sin. But when it actually came to preaching the gospel, they preached Jesus came in the flesh, died on the cross for our sins and rose on the third day. Believe that go on your way and you are saved. Not quite !!!
I left that church after 12 years of being in and out of it, do to wanted to follow my own desires and wants.
I went a few years doing my own thing, not being affiliated with any church. When I turned 28 I was talked into joining a Catholic church from friends, so I started going and did not feel comfortable from day one. They started off telling me that even though I was coming there, I was not actually a member of their church tell I took the RCIA classes and completed them, and then took holy communion. I took the classes hoping to get more insight into scripture, unfortunately they spent more time on history teaching and how prophecy applied to the Catholic church, but not enough on actual scripture study.
After five years of this, I started to get more into scriptural study myself do to what little I was given had me to start questioning some of the activities of the Catholic church.
In my studies I found out how much obedience was emphasized all throughout the bible, and how people still have the free will to go against the guidance of the Holy Spirit after they have become partakers in Christ and received the Holy Spirit. Now yes there is the debate why would God have His Holy Spirit come to somebody who He knows will not listen to it. My answer to that would be it is summed up by what our Lord said that He wishes none will perish. If you open the door a little He will come in, but you can still shut that door on Him again. The choice is ours to accept or not to accept.
I left the Catholic church do to the teachings contrary to the bible, and that is when I went back to the baptist church again because I did not see any other denominations at that time that was teaching completely by the bible. They were all adding or taking away from the word.
So I tried my hand at the baptist church again, but this time went to a different one that a lot of my family was going to. Beaumont Baptist church was a good church at first, and was holding on by the skin of its teeth do to a small congregation in a middle to lower class area. The preacher made it fun, taught by the bible during sermons, and was not strict at all. It had a come as you are policy, which is what the bible says.
Because of the small congregation, nobody besides me and my sister wanted to step up and help in roles in the church. Me an my sister were stretched thin trying to run the pantry, get fundraisers together, go around ministering to the neighborhood to try to get more people to come to church, and other events like VBS for kids.
The church got bad do to financial problems, that brought the baptist board of operations in.
They came in and wanted the whole church to change its approach, and wanting to push it more back to a southern baptist style. People started to leave instead of coming, and in the last year I was there we had maybe 10 people at the most that showed up for church each week. Our pastor got fed up from the changes they were trying to make, so he left as well.
The discernment that was going on made me start looking around before it the church faltered do to bad philosophies.
This is when I heard about the non-denominational movement. I looked into it, and saw the only thing they taught and preached was directly from the bible. This was exactly what I needed and was looking for in a church, so I became non-denominational and since then have been in studies now for a few years to get ordained as a minister.
K
Sorry you must be using one of these updated English version bibles that change the wording to cause strife and division.
Here is what 1 Corinthians 1:18 says;
[h=1]1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. ( Not are saved )[/h]
[h=1]2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,[/h]
There are parts to this scripture as well, we are saved by Christ if we obey to the holy calling that He called us for. By His grace we are saved if we serve His purpose and will. Then in this same book Paul states in chapter two that they must endure the hardships they come upon them, and if they turn and deny Him, He will deny them. Paul is reiterating in 2 Timothy 2:11-12 what Jesus said. This does not go against what the Lord said in;
Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Luke 6:47
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them,...
Like I said an point proven...you would argue with a fence post and it being a fence post!
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
I suggest you study more Kenneth......
1st Corinthians 1:18...unto us which ARE SAVED it is the power of God
2nd Timothy 1:9 Who HATH SAVED US, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works...
Titus 3:5 ...but according to his mercy he SAVED US
Not to mention ALL the verses that use a PRESENT TENSE concerning ETERNAL life, EVERLASTING LIFE and other verses that SPEAK of SALVATION is a PRESTENT TENSE and or an AORIST VERB TENSE that shows a PAST COMPLETED action with a PRESENT continuing RESULT.
You do understand PRESENT TENSE and PAST TENSE right.........!
You know, I fully expect you to argue against the grammar of the above three verses listed because it proves your opening statement wrong!
King Jim-->1st Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of he cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us WHICH ARE SAVED it is the power of God.
Again, I suggest you study more and know your facts before you open your mouth with BASELESS accusations!
1st Corinthians 1:18...unto us which ARE SAVED it is the power of God
2nd Timothy 1:9 Who HATH SAVED US, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works...
Titus 3:5 ...but according to his mercy he SAVED US
Not to mention ALL the verses that use a PRESENT TENSE concerning ETERNAL life, EVERLASTING LIFE and other verses that SPEAK of SALVATION is a PRESTENT TENSE and or an AORIST VERB TENSE that shows a PAST COMPLETED action with a PRESENT continuing RESULT.
You do understand PRESENT TENSE and PAST TENSE right.........!
You know, I fully expect you to argue against the grammar of the above three verses listed because it proves your opening statement wrong!
King Jim-->1st Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of he cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us WHICH ARE SAVED it is the power of God.
Again, I suggest you study more and know your facts before you open your mouth with BASELESS accusations!
K
Yes Paul tells the Ephesian church that they were sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God with which ye are sealed for the day of redemption.
Look at the first part of that scripture though, it says do not grieve the Holy Spirit.
Then what does Paul do after this ? He goes into warnings write after that telling them the things they are not to do, and telling them in the next chapter they are to be imitators of God. And he tells them that if they do not heave these warnings to abstain from doing those things they will make themselves disobedient to God ( vs. 6 ). Warning them that if they become partakers with the workers of darkness, there is no inheritance to the kingdom of heaven in that. They must walk in light ( obedience and good works ) to be an inheritor of the kingdom of heaven.
K
Like I said an point proven...you would argue with a fence post and it being a fence post!
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
I suggest you study more Kenneth......
1st Corinthians 1:18...unto us which ARE SAVED it is the power of God
2nd Timothy 1:9 Who HATH SAVED US, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works...
Titus 3:5 ...but according to his mercy he SAVED US
Not to mention ALL the verses that use a PRESENT TENSE concerning ETERNAL life, EVERLASTING LIFE and other verses that SPEAK of SALVATION is a PRESTENT TENSE and or an AORIST VERB TENSE that shows a PAST COMPLETED action with a PRESENT continuing RESULT.
You do understand PRESENT TENSE and PAST TENSE right.........!
You know, I fully expect you to argue against the grammar of the above three verses listed because it proves your opening statement wrong!
King Jim-->1st Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of he cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us WHICH ARE SAVED it is the power of God.
Again, I suggest you study more and know your facts before you open your mouth with BASELESS accusations!
1st Corinthians 1:18...unto us which ARE SAVED it is the power of God
2nd Timothy 1:9 Who HATH SAVED US, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works...
Titus 3:5 ...but according to his mercy he SAVED US
Not to mention ALL the verses that use a PRESENT TENSE concerning ETERNAL life, EVERLASTING LIFE and other verses that SPEAK of SALVATION is a PRESTENT TENSE and or an AORIST VERB TENSE that shows a PAST COMPLETED action with a PRESENT continuing RESULT.
You do understand PRESENT TENSE and PAST TENSE right.........!
You know, I fully expect you to argue against the grammar of the above three verses listed because it proves your opening statement wrong!
King Jim-->1st Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of he cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us WHICH ARE SAVED it is the power of God.
Again, I suggest you study more and know your facts before you open your mouth with BASELESS accusations!
No it does not prove my opening statement wrong for I showed exactly how the original scripture says being saved, not that we already are saved.
Then I showed you exactly how 1st Corinthians and 2 Timothy does not contradict what the Lord said.
If you try to make this say as some versions do,saved automatically, then you make Paul contradict the Lord when He said endure to the end to be saved. Paul can not teach contrary to what Jesus taught.
As for Titus lets look at it to;
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
It starts off like we all agree with that we can not earn salvation with good works. For people can do good works all there life, but if they don't believe in Jesus they will not be saved. Righteous deeds are nothing without Him,
Then it goes on to talk about the saved state is by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Spirit.
So this is saying only through repentance and baptism to renew your mind, and turn from sin and toward obedience to Him.
Then Titus goes on in verse 7 saying that we should become heirs to eternal life, not that we are heirs yet. Then in vs 9 and 14 he warns again of things to abstain from, and warns about not to producing good works and being unfruitful.
Like I said again...point proven as you would argue against a fence post being a fence post if it contradicts your view of a fencepost.....now you have changed the wording because you cannot biblically argue your point...what a joke for sure you are Kenneth......
Your first statement--->Sorry you must be using one of these updated English version bibles that change the wording to cause strife and division.
Your second statement-->No it does not prove my opening statement wrong for I showed exactly how the original scripture says being saved, not that we already are saved.
You and your buddies (workers for salvation) are a joke....you constantly twist your words, the meanings of the words, deny context, change what you say and post, contradict yourself while standing against the word of God by your blindness and the hardness of your heart. When you can quit playing Chubby Checker records come a reason the word of God...until then all I hear from you is the crickets!
Your first statement--->Sorry you must be using one of these updated English version bibles that change the wording to cause strife and division.
Your second statement-->No it does not prove my opening statement wrong for I showed exactly how the original scripture says being saved, not that we already are saved.
You and your buddies (workers for salvation) are a joke....you constantly twist your words, the meanings of the words, deny context, change what you say and post, contradict yourself while standing against the word of God by your blindness and the hardness of your heart. When you can quit playing Chubby Checker records come a reason the word of God...until then all I hear from you is the crickets!
E
Actually I see one problem with this statement. It actually goes back to your post on the "sower and the seeds". In that parable we only see one "group" of seeds actually take complete "root" and grow. Those seeds never fall away from God's hands. The other "groups" of seeds never take complete root and we're never in God's hands to begin with.
The people who you say "their salvation is in jeopardy" are not true believers in Christ. We "see" them as Christians because they might put on a "good show" but it was only a lie not a truth. What we see as "them falling away" is actually them never being there in the first place.
We see this many times with people. During a "good time" they "accept Jesus" but when the hard times hit they "revert back" to themselves. Why do they "revert back"? Because they never truly opened the door and let Jesus in.
Weak in faith is an improper term. Christians are never weak in faith for our faith comes from God (Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift from God, not of works, lest anyone should boast")
For if we say our faith is weak then we can accuse God of not giving us enough faith. But we also have this "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it." (1 Cor 10:13)
So we can see that God always gives us exactly what we need. So true Christians are never weak in faith.
The people who you say "their salvation is in jeopardy" are not true believers in Christ. We "see" them as Christians because they might put on a "good show" but it was only a lie not a truth. What we see as "them falling away" is actually them never being there in the first place.
We see this many times with people. During a "good time" they "accept Jesus" but when the hard times hit they "revert back" to themselves. Why do they "revert back"? Because they never truly opened the door and let Jesus in.
Weak in faith is an improper term. Christians are never weak in faith for our faith comes from God (Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift from God, not of works, lest anyone should boast")
For if we say our faith is weak then we can accuse God of not giving us enough faith. But we also have this "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it." (1 Cor 10:13)
So we can see that God always gives us exactly what we need. So true Christians are never weak in faith.
K
Ok, lets put it this way and I take what you all say and I believed that way at one point to. That once you are saved your actions, obedience, and works mean nothing. This is the problem I have with that now;
First, it goes against the multiple teachings of Jesus they say endure to the end to be saved, and the things that you do like helping others in need show you either accept Christ, or deny Him.
Second is posed in a question;
Why if one is saved to begin with and all ready got eternal life coming to them, why does Paul always after telling a person or group of people that are believers, after talking about salvation immediately warn them of things they can not do any more or become a part of again if it did not matter ???
You are still going to get eternal life, and can't lose it like some of you say, so why the warnings ?
It would be pointless to warn believers of continuing in sin, or returning to sin if they are going to get eternal life no matter what. But Paul does it over and over again, so does Peter, John, and James....
First, it goes against the multiple teachings of Jesus they say endure to the end to be saved, and the things that you do like helping others in need show you either accept Christ, or deny Him.
Second is posed in a question;
Why if one is saved to begin with and all ready got eternal life coming to them, why does Paul always after telling a person or group of people that are believers, after talking about salvation immediately warn them of things they can not do any more or become a part of again if it did not matter ???
You are still going to get eternal life, and can't lose it like some of you say, so why the warnings ?
It would be pointless to warn believers of continuing in sin, or returning to sin if they are going to get eternal life no matter what. But Paul does it over and over again, so does Peter, John, and James....
Here is the answer to your question, this warns the believer to check if their faith is true, are they rooted?
By these warnings I knew I was not saved in the past and was in danger, seeing I couldnt walk in obedience. I even used to read that parable and suspected His seed fell on stone in my case because I wasnt able to stay in Him. Maybe people lie to themselves, but I personally had no peace so even without that parable I knew I was not right with God yet. My faith wavered a lot. I begged God to save me and give me power to overcome, I kept knocking or shall I say desperately banging on the door, and as God saw I became resolved, He did, and I was finally born again and grace increased gradually. Then I started walking by His power, and knew I was finally on the right track. These warnings are where free will chimes in. I could have said "so, I will be saved even if I do whatever I want" but we all know the truth in our hearts - that is not the truth. God is not mocked. So I hoped in God's help to overcome. It is these warnings that tell us we are supposed to overcome sin, and if we dont, something is wrong with our salvation. But works do not save... they are just an indicator to know if someone is saved. A person worried about their eternity will thanks to these warnings run to God for help. Hope that makes sense.
By these warnings I knew I was not saved in the past and was in danger, seeing I couldnt walk in obedience. I even used to read that parable and suspected His seed fell on stone in my case because I wasnt able to stay in Him. Maybe people lie to themselves, but I personally had no peace so even without that parable I knew I was not right with God yet. My faith wavered a lot. I begged God to save me and give me power to overcome, I kept knocking or shall I say desperately banging on the door, and as God saw I became resolved, He did, and I was finally born again and grace increased gradually. Then I started walking by His power, and knew I was finally on the right track. These warnings are where free will chimes in. I could have said "so, I will be saved even if I do whatever I want" but we all know the truth in our hearts - that is not the truth. God is not mocked. So I hoped in God's help to overcome. It is these warnings that tell us we are supposed to overcome sin, and if we dont, something is wrong with our salvation. But works do not save... they are just an indicator to know if someone is saved. A person worried about their eternity will thanks to these warnings run to God for help. Hope that makes sense.
K
This is a good answer that you gave.
The problem is that there are many out there who want to cancel out the importance of works and obedience, even on here saying they are not needed or one does not have to do them.
What is wrong with this thinking is that they are evident that one is saved, until you obey to do these spiritual works that our Lord listed out for us and His apostles confirmed. You are still living in the flesh, with a carnal mind that has no salvation, nor have they been saved yet.
By what even you said that they are an indicator that one is saved, then this goes with what the Lord said.
Until these indicators are evident in ones life, then one is not saved. Saved after they have endured all things, and the indicators have become evident.
E
ok, This sounds more like it. Yes they do try to get as many as they can saved, and the sinners prayer crap (if not said in true faith) did bother me. But the legalism bothered me more, in what I saw it do to people. Their biggest problem was trying to be Christ like but not to much looking like Christ, and they would have people come to Christ then not have any discipleship. Just trust them to learn on their own and hope they cam back. But even if they did, it was more hellfire and brimstone. Many people I would see disapear. only to find they fell into some sin and instead of trying to get help. Hid it so they would not be judged, and eventually just gave up. This is not what the body of Christ is. No one should be afraid of being judged, they should always be open, and seek help for sin problems, that is the way God designed his body to be.
I Got the same, the thing which bothered me is I had been a Christian for 20 some years, and they tell me I can not take the Lords supper. Plus I do not think I ever got any bible study in any mass I went to. Just a quote of a bible passage, some sermon on whatever which sounded all nice and everything, but did not really tell me anything, Alot of kneeling and whatever, To me it was dead.. I ended up breaking up with the girl anyway, it was going no where. so was easy to leave.
I I will be honest, this makes no sense. God made a promise, he promised eternal life to whoever places their faith in him. He is NOT going to give it to someone who does not trust him fully, He knows our hearts, and our desires, and what we really think, I can fool you into thinking I love God and want his life, But I can not fool God.
He would never give a gift to anyone who knows does not trust him
I agree with the obedience part. But what I have learned, is God does not want to follow some law, some rules, he wants us to learn to love, Love is the fulfillment of the law. Because love does not sin, because it is NOT self motivated. I have learned that sin is far more than just the ten commandments, But far greater than that, And in gaining this knowledge, I realised just how much of a sinner, self focused person I was.
I Got the same, the thing which bothered me is I had been a Christian for 20 some years, and they tell me I can not take the Lords supper. Plus I do not think I ever got any bible study in any mass I went to. Just a quote of a bible passage, some sermon on whatever which sounded all nice and everything, but did not really tell me anything, Alot of kneeling and whatever, To me it was dead.. I ended up breaking up with the girl anyway, it was going no where. so was easy to leave.
I I will be honest, this makes no sense. God made a promise, he promised eternal life to whoever places their faith in him. He is NOT going to give it to someone who does not trust him fully, He knows our hearts, and our desires, and what we really think, I can fool you into thinking I love God and want his life, But I can not fool God.
He would never give a gift to anyone who knows does not trust him
I agree with the obedience part. But what I have learned, is God does not want to follow some law, some rules, he wants us to learn to love, Love is the fulfillment of the law. Because love does not sin, because it is NOT self motivated. I have learned that sin is far more than just the ten commandments, But far greater than that, And in gaining this knowledge, I realised just how much of a sinner, self focused person I was.
I believe everybody agrees with you on this for the most part - what seems to be the point of disagreement is that we dont have to wait till the end of life to know we are saved.
You know when you have been born again and that you wont go back to old life and will continue to obey Him and grow in Christ. You know the life of sin is harmful and disgusts you, because you're a new creature. So you already know you're saved, that's when your heart changed, you received a new heart to love God will all you have. You dont have to be in incertainty till you die - you know you're following Him and by God's grace will continue to do so. You know you're a child of God.
The warnings are there for those who are still wavering, so they would turn to God and get saved and start displaying evidence of faith in their walk.
You know when you have been born again and that you wont go back to old life and will continue to obey Him and grow in Christ. You know the life of sin is harmful and disgusts you, because you're a new creature. So you already know you're saved, that's when your heart changed, you received a new heart to love God will all you have. You dont have to be in incertainty till you die - you know you're following Him and by God's grace will continue to do so. You know you're a child of God.
The warnings are there for those who are still wavering, so they would turn to God and get saved and start displaying evidence of faith in their walk.
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E
there is a problem with your thinking.
Paul tells us we are sealed with the HS until the day of redemption (like he did in eph 1: 13-14.)
He just said do not grieve him, Cause him grief, You know. Like kids cause their parents greif when they do not listen?
Yet he never said a word about this grieving causing the seal of the spirit to be lost.
The first few chapters of ephesians is written to let the church know how secure they are, in their position in Christ.
The later chapters show us, Ok, Now that we know we are secure in Christ, DO THIS.. This is the way A Christian, Secure in Christ, should be.
He never states do this, and your security would be lost, because if he did that, then the first few chapters are useless, and meaningless.
E
I agree, I will never understand this "weak in faith" stuff. How much weaker in faith can yuo be then to be so small, it is the size of a mustard seed, Yet that weak faith can move a mountain God said.
How can that weak of a faith move a mountain? Because it is not our power we are trusting in, It is Gods, even if it is a weak faith
As the one man said, Lord I believe help me in my unbelief, Jesus healed his child based on his weak faith. God always works in our faith, no matter how great or small it is, Work will ALWAYS precede from faith.
E
It is easy. if one just looks at it.
Like james, Many people CLAIM they have faith. But in reality they do not. They are playing a game, trying to go along for the walk. But when stuff hits the fan, Poof they are gone, or they are easily defeated by satan, because they are doing it of their own power, and not the power of God.
As james is saying in his whole epistle. Is your faith real, or is it not. Test your faith, Are you a hearer only? or a doer? Do you endure temptation? or fall for it? Do you suffer persecution and tribulation and grow in it, or does it take yuo down and out. DO you think your righteous because you follow the law. Well how good are you at doing that (commit the least of all sin, and are found guilty of the whole law) Is your faith real, or is it all just talk? How can you say you have faith, when your hearers and not doers, There is no work in you, Eve faith of a mustard seed will work, but here you are will NO WORK WHATSOEVER, and you think your faith in God will save you? how can it, when it is not even enough to do one work. All your life is sin, no change whatsoever,
Paul makes the same statements, Not everyone who goes to church is saved, every pastor (you state your training to be one) should be telling people to test their faith, and make sure it is not by word only, and not real faith. Are you here playing games? or are you hear to learn about the God who saved you? and want to be more like him.
Like james, Many people CLAIM they have faith. But in reality they do not. They are playing a game, trying to go along for the walk. But when stuff hits the fan, Poof they are gone, or they are easily defeated by satan, because they are doing it of their own power, and not the power of God.
As james is saying in his whole epistle. Is your faith real, or is it not. Test your faith, Are you a hearer only? or a doer? Do you endure temptation? or fall for it? Do you suffer persecution and tribulation and grow in it, or does it take yuo down and out. DO you think your righteous because you follow the law. Well how good are you at doing that (commit the least of all sin, and are found guilty of the whole law) Is your faith real, or is it all just talk? How can you say you have faith, when your hearers and not doers, There is no work in you, Eve faith of a mustard seed will work, but here you are will NO WORK WHATSOEVER, and you think your faith in God will save you? how can it, when it is not even enough to do one work. All your life is sin, no change whatsoever,
Paul makes the same statements, Not everyone who goes to church is saved, every pastor (you state your training to be one) should be telling people to test their faith, and make sure it is not by word only, and not real faith. Are you here playing games? or are you hear to learn about the God who saved you? and want to be more like him.
E
No. the problem is we keep getting told this But this is not the case, The problem is people who make these false accusations are not listening to a word we are saying, and through a teaching they have heard, or things they have been taught, or whatever the motivation is behind it, Refuse to listen. And ALWAYS ASSUME they think this.
K
Did I say you were one of the ones who say obedience and works are not needed.
No, I did not. But there are some who have been on here debating that they are not needed.
The use the debate of easy believism faith;
Believe in Jesus that's it, your now saved. Or they add a little more, which is the part He was crucified on the cross and rose on the third day, now that's it your now saved.
Then they go and say no matter what you do from here on out, even living in sin is acceptable because no amount of sins will cause you to fall from grace/salvation.
This is not biblical or the truth.
Which is why you see a lot of churches accepting gay relationships now, they are teaching this false gospel.
If a gay person says they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and said they have repented, but then continue to live in a gay relationship they are not saved as some are trying to say they are.
The scripture that says you can not live in willful sin after receiving the truth proves that ones actions and obedience do matter.
If you believe obedience and actions matter then I am glad, and we do agree on this. But there are some that don't.
K
Good answer, and yes it is about the testing of your faith.
Like I said before there are those who are weak in the faith, and those who are strong in the faith. The ones who are weak in the faith are the ones in danger of losing the gift of salvation, they still have faith none the less. It is not built on a solid foundation though that they can build on.