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Romans 4:3-6, 9-12b For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh [for righteousness] is the reward not reckoned of grace but of debt. But to him that worketh not [for righteousness] but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works . . . .Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision [works] only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. HOW WAS IT THEN RECKONED? when he was in circumcision [by works] or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision [after he had faith], a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised [without works]: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: . . . .who walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had being yet uncircumcised [without works].
I agree, there IS a work that *ONLY* Christ could do and that *only* Christ CAN do in heaven now. And it's that specific work that if we ever attempted to do it ourselves would be denying Christ's work (because how can we say we accept the effort of another person if we do the job ourselves).
But we're not talking about doing that work. There is more work than Christ's work to do (and maybe this is the where we disagree at the core). Christ's work is his to do. Our work is ours to do. Christ's specific work is "ministration & mediation in God's temple with his blood as High Priest." It is this "work of the law" that if we attempted to repeat or tried to do ourselves we would be seriously overstepping our position. It's like if any of you were to stand up in the middle of Church service while your pastor is preaching, pushed him to the side and began performing his duty. But just like there are other jobs to do in your church that show your faith in your pastor's leadership, we have work to do to show our faith in Christ's work in heaven.
How do we show we have faith that Christ is doing his work in heaven without doing our work here on earth? James is saying we can't just simply say "I believe". Anyone can say "I believe" and it would no more guarantee their salvation. What are we "doing" that shows our faith?
James says if Abraham did not do; if he did not go on to attempt to sacrifice his son, he wouldn't have been justified to attain the righteousness God imputed upon him. He showed his faith by his action.
If Rahab did not do; if she did not hide the spies and put a scarlet chord out her window, it wouldn't have matter how many times she said she believed Israel would spare her family. If she didn't perform those actions she wouldn't have been justified to be saved. - James' point in James 2.
Now there was a work that only the spies could do that Rahab could *never* do...and if they didn't do their work in telling Joshua, Rahab would have been killed with the rest of Jericho even if she did everything she was commanded to do perfectly. There was nothing she could do to affect her salvation in that regard. - Paul's point in Galatians 3.
And if she overstepped her position and traveled to Israel's camp to tell Joshua she saved his spies, she probably would have been killed as a spy herself. It was the spies job, not hers. - One of the points the Hebrews writer makes.
This is the dynamic of salvation. It's a narrow path; the strait gate...not too much to the right and not too much to the left. The heavenly work that is Christ's alone to do to save us is Christ's alone to do, but the work that *proves* we trust Christ is doing his exclusive work in heaven; proving our faith in him and thereby justifying us to be saved by him, is ours to do.
But we're not talking about doing that work. There is more work than Christ's work to do (and maybe this is the where we disagree at the core). Christ's work is his to do. Our work is ours to do. Christ's specific work is "ministration & mediation in God's temple with his blood as High Priest." It is this "work of the law" that if we attempted to repeat or tried to do ourselves we would be seriously overstepping our position. It's like if any of you were to stand up in the middle of Church service while your pastor is preaching, pushed him to the side and began performing his duty. But just like there are other jobs to do in your church that show your faith in your pastor's leadership, we have work to do to show our faith in Christ's work in heaven.
How do we show we have faith that Christ is doing his work in heaven without doing our work here on earth? James is saying we can't just simply say "I believe". Anyone can say "I believe" and it would no more guarantee their salvation. What are we "doing" that shows our faith?
James says if Abraham did not do; if he did not go on to attempt to sacrifice his son, he wouldn't have been justified to attain the righteousness God imputed upon him. He showed his faith by his action.
If Rahab did not do; if she did not hide the spies and put a scarlet chord out her window, it wouldn't have matter how many times she said she believed Israel would spare her family. If she didn't perform those actions she wouldn't have been justified to be saved. - James' point in James 2.
Now there was a work that only the spies could do that Rahab could *never* do...and if they didn't do their work in telling Joshua, Rahab would have been killed with the rest of Jericho even if she did everything she was commanded to do perfectly. There was nothing she could do to affect her salvation in that regard. - Paul's point in Galatians 3.
And if she overstepped her position and traveled to Israel's camp to tell Joshua she saved his spies, she probably would have been killed as a spy herself. It was the spies job, not hers. - One of the points the Hebrews writer makes.
This is the dynamic of salvation. It's a narrow path; the strait gate...not too much to the right and not too much to the left. The heavenly work that is Christ's alone to do to save us is Christ's alone to do, but the work that *proves* we trust Christ is doing his exclusive work in heaven; proving our faith in him and thereby justifying us to be saved by him, is ours to do.
E
I am talking about the human spirit. He was dead, the things of God became foolish to him, He forgot how he could not hide from God, so he tried to hide He forgot how God knows his mind, so he tried to lie and blame someone else. He forgot God made him perfect. so he tried to hide his nakedness.
I am talking spiritual death. the seperation of Mans spirit from God. ot has to be "born again" before the relationship is restored. and the things of God no longer seem foolish .
I am talking spiritual death. the seperation of Mans spirit from God. ot has to be "born again" before the relationship is restored. and the things of God no longer seem foolish .
Oh that spirit, I thought you were talking about the three that bear witness in earth [flesh], the spirit, the blood and the water, that form the living soul.
(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God: OT) He will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them. Deut 4:31
John 11:13-14
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God: OT) He will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them. Deut 4:31
John 11:13-14
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Probably posted before, but didn't see it........soooooo.........
Romans, Chapter 6:
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]1[/h][/TD]
[TD]What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]2[/h][/TD]
[TD]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]3[/h][/TD]
[TD]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]4[/h][/TD]
[TD]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]5[/h][/TD]
[TD]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]6[/h][/TD]
[TD]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]7[/h][/TD]
[TD]For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]8[/h][/TD]
[TD]Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]9[/h][/TD]
[TD]Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]10[/h][/TD]
[TD]For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]11[/h][/TD]
[TD]Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]12[/h][/TD]
[TD]Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]13[/h][/TD]
[TD]Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]14[/h][/TD]
[TD]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
works for me.............
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Romans, Chapter 6:
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]1[/h][/TD]
[TD]What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]2[/h][/TD]
[TD]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]3[/h][/TD]
[TD]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]4[/h][/TD]
[TD]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]5[/h][/TD]
[TD]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]6[/h][/TD]
[TD]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]7[/h][/TD]
[TD]For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]8[/h][/TD]
[TD]Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]9[/h][/TD]
[TD]Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]10[/h][/TD]
[TD]For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]11[/h][/TD]
[TD]Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]12[/h][/TD]
[TD]Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]13[/h][/TD]
[TD]Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][h=4]14[/h][/TD]
[TD]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
works for me.............
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
K
Being physically dead and spiritually dead are two different things. Your example suggests only physical death, yet someone who is spiritually dead but not physically dead can do an obedient act. This is proven by Christ who said, "Let the dead bury the dead." How can the physically dead bury the physically dead? That would be impossible, like your example. However, contrary to your example, Christ meant that the spiritually dead should bury the physically dead so that the man he was talking to would have no excuse to not follow Him right then. When we OBEY by getting baptized we are raised out of the water alive with the Holy Spirit. The bible says that God will punish those who know not God, and OBEY not the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. The work during baptism is spiritual- not physical, and God does the work, not you- for the work that He does is circumcission. (Colossians chapter 2).
E
I read the first couple pages of this forum and it started great. A really good conversation then...the legalists started with the whole baptism and works stuff that has been beaten to death here. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the Father but thru me. Paul says for there is no other name under heaven by which a man may be saved. Just between these two, whats the way to heaven? Jesus! Jesus tell us "Jesus" Paul tells us "Jesus" by the legalistic way we add our names to Jesus for salvation, justification, sanctification, and redemption.
It is a very selfish thing to do to add our names to the work Christ has already completed. Since the work was completed by Jesus that means there is no saving work to be done. Now for the rest of our time here on earth we have some work to do but it can't and won't save us because the salvation work is done.
It is a very selfish thing to do to add our names to the work Christ has already completed. Since the work was completed by Jesus that means there is no saving work to be done. Now for the rest of our time here on earth we have some work to do but it can't and won't save us because the salvation work is done.
K
Baptism is Christ and the work He did. When we are baptized we join Christ in His death so that we can join Him in resurrection. (romans chapter 6). It is like an advanced skydiver who allows you to attach yourself to him so that you will land safely on the ground just as he does. And when you land safely with him can you take any credit? No. But we have to be attached in order to join him in the process. Baptism is the gospel of Jesus Christ, and the bible says that God will punish those who do not know God and do not OBEY the gospel of His Son.