why does" Grace" change the word?

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Feb 24, 2015
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#21
Do you know why many criminals cry when sentenced?

Because they feel sad they got caught and the shock of what this means is coming home.

There is only hope when people have remorse about their evil deed and desire to not repeat
it, and wish they had never done it in the first place. This is the beginning of a reformed life.

If you have ever had dealings with criminals you will know this is the basic first steps.
If you just forgive them, they go right out of jail and commit the same acts because nothing
has changed, more fool you for letting them off.
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#22
[for me anyway] Paul was not speaking of his own self, rather the Holy Spirit of Truth was speaking through Him. As for grace, if we view grace in comparison to the law: the law was judgment without mercy, whereas grace is mercy without judgment through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The mosaic Law had mercy, Mercy to a thousand generations of those who would fear God and eep His commandments. no difference in that principle now. God has always been saving man by Grace, Grace doesnt nullify obedience to Jesus ois the thing. it is for the express purpose of bringing the disobedient into obedience.

romans 1:1-7 "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the GOSPEL of God, 2(WHICH HE HAD PROMISED AFORE afore by HIS PROPHETS IN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES,) 3Concerning HIS SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4And declared TO BE THE SON OF GOD WITH POWER , according to the SPIRIT of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5By whom we have received GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH AMONG ALL NATIONS, for his name: 6Among whom are YE ALSO ARE THE CALLED of Jesus Christ:
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ."

what is Grace for?

titus 2:11-15 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

really simply, if Grace is teaching people that good works, obeying God, repenting of sin and living right lives in response to Jesus Christ and His BLOOD shed for us, it is not from God. God will never provide people with anything that does not Love Obedience because obeying God, is infallibly RIGHT.
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#23
Do you know why many criminals cry when sentenced?

Because they feel sad they got caught and the shock of what this means is coming home.

There is only hope when people have remorse about their evil deed and desire to not repeat
it, and wish they had never done it in the first place. This is the beginning of a reformed life.

If you have ever had dealings with criminals you will know this is the basic first steps.
If you just forgive them, they go right out of jail and commit the same acts because nothing
has changed, more fool you for letting them off.
abslutely true peter, and actually a teaching of PAUL who gets labeled terribly wrong by the false doctrines people create from Hos writings

2 corinthians 7:8-10 "For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. 9Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. 10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."

grace that teaches people " never feel guilty when you have done wrong" is the issue. if a person never accepts that " i have done wrong and accept the spirit of God who coinvicts us of our sin in order to lead us to repentance, trepentance will never happen.

if you teach a kid, " if i kick my mom, there is no reason to feel bad because she Loves me" the Kid will learn to do as they please cause mom will always Love me. it breeds a distain for truth and righteousness. and paints the lie " obeying Gods commandments is work and therefore opposed to Gods Grace"

of course peter you understand like i do " thats not what were saying" but yeah it is what distorted Grace leads to. spoiled children with a sense of entitlement regardless of my own actions. Like satans ways always are crafty, shifty appearance of worth but just like eden to disregard Gods word and follow the other option is death.
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#24
acceptance grace - which has nothing to do with our behavior

empowering grace - enables you to be who the Father sees you are in Christ

Trouble with the above is no repentance, confession or desire to walk in righteousness.
This is merely you are guilty but forgiven, so now you can be sinless.

So why would a sinner who is a slave to sin, be forgiven when they have no intention to
not repeat the same sin again, and because they are forgiven, why would they behave
as God desires when their hearts are in full rebellion against Him.
same reason eve ate the fruit, she Knew Gods word of truth, and followed the Lie unto the death of all men. False doctrine is the only weapon satan Has, those who stand on Gods word are unsinkable
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#25
There are two words in Greek used for our one English word, commandments, with two seperate meanings.

ἐντολή
entolē
en-tol-ay'
From G1781; injunction, that is, an authoritative prescription: - commandment, precept.
Total KJV occurrences: 71

This is used in teachings concerning Gods laws. What one must do to follow Gods way.

Its a means of controlling behavior. One can do everything asked to do but what affect is on the heart?

The Cross of Jesus Christ is active in our life by faith in what Jesus finished there for all men. When believed on, grace, the power of Holy Spirit does an act of circumcision on our heart. Cuts flesh, the power of sin broken, and we literally in Spirit are reborn. Then we learn how to live according to His power, working in our life.

Paul is saying he is pleased by the report that he received about the Thessalonians faith holding fast, and hears his work there was not in vain. So he encourages them to excel even moreso, by true love for the brethren.

The Word commandment here is:


G3852

παραγγελία
paraggelia
par-ang-gel-ee'-ah
From G3853; a mandate: - charge, command.
Total KJV occurrences: 5

G3853

παραγγέλλω
paraggellō
par-ang-gel'-lo
From G3844 and the base of G32; to transmit a message, that is, (by implication) to enjoin: - (give in) charge, (give) command (-ment), declare.


Do you see the difference?
The Cross of Jesus Christ is active in our life by faith in what Jesus finished there for all men.

actually

Hebrews 4:11 "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.12For the WORD OF GOD is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a DISCERNER OF THE THOUGHTS AND INTENTS of the heart. 13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but ALL THINGS are naked and opened UNTO THE EYES OF HIM with whom we have to do."

it is Gods Word of Truth that is active and changes us., the cross is an altar, Jesus the unblemished sacrifice for our sin commited beforehand (Romans 3:25, Hebrews 9:15)

Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

Jesus dying for our sins is about Gods forebearance beforehand, it is forgiveness for the Lives we once Lived in darkness, in service to sin.

hEBREWS 9:15 "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the TRANSGRESSIONS THAT WERE UNDER THE FIRST TESTAMENT they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

He replaced Moses as the One mediator between God and man. when He died it redeemed us from the transgression all had commited underthe first covenant law. " all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" <<<thats why Jesus had to die. There is no scripture that says your already forgiven for what you may choose to do in the future. Forgiveness in the New covenant as all things are, is explained sinply and clearly by Jesus. future forgiveness is

Matthew 6:14-15 "
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

gog folks hate this but very clearly this is not the forgiveness offered in the mosaic Law not even similar to it. forgiveness in the law is to take your unblemished animal to the priest, tranfer by faith your sin onto it, and then the animal is slaughtered and its blood is sprinkled, to cleans the conscience of whatever sin had been commited. there is no Law in moses that says " if you forgive those who sin against you, God will forgive you, if yuou do not, noiether will He."

That is a teaching of the gospel of the Kingdom of God. that is Our obedience that offers forgivness, and it is the words of Jesus, no one else, not myself, or any other person, But Jesus Christ the Lord. gog doctrine label;s Jesus teachings as "the law" though a person can learn the law and plainly see, it is nothing like the law. The gospel, the word taught By Jesus is our salvation, it is spirit and Life John 6:63. false doctrines will forever come up with different twists to make Jesus word not the word of the Lord in full authoprity, but that is written also. and it is nothing but proof of where it comes from. Just like the serpent " Naw, what God said doesnt matter.....the fruit wont kill you, Gods just saying that, your free to eat of ant tree you want"

It isnt as if God hasnt been clear, or as if He didnt send Jesus to explain the truth of Gods Kingdom. denial and disregard is on the person, God has already provided us all we need to repent and live righteous Lives, godly Lives through Christ who is our Lord.

2 peter 1:3 "According as his divine power hath GIVEN UNTO US ALL THINGS that pertain unto life and godliness, THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM that hath called us to glory and VIRTUE:"

How we live now having accepted Jesus will determine whther we Know Him or deny Him, Grace forgave all we had done, and grace Gave us all we need to Know, and Grace came through Jesus Christ the Son of God, and is found in His words

" Neither do i condemn you, now go and sin no more" Gods Grace is wonderful, its been very distorted and distorted Grace is worthless when it strays from the word of God.
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#26
The mosaic Law had mercy, Mercy to a thousand generations of those who would fear God and eep His commandments. no difference in that principle now. God has always been saving man by Grace, Grace doesnt nullify obedience to Jesus ois the thing. it is for the express purpose of bringing the disobedient into obedience.

romans 1:1-7 "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the GOSPEL of God, 2(WHICH HE HAD PROMISED AFORE afore by HIS PROPHETS IN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES,) 3Concerning HIS SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4And declared TO BE THE SON OF GOD WITH POWER , according to the SPIRIT of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5By whom we have received GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH AMONG ALL NATIONS, for his name: 6Among whom are YE ALSO ARE THE CALLED of Jesus Christ:
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ."

what is Grace for?

titus 2:11-15 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

really simply, if Grace is teaching people that good works, obeying God, repenting of sin and living right lives in response to Jesus Christ and His BLOOD shed for us, it is not from God. God will never provide people with anything that does not Love Obedience because obeying God, is infallibly RIGHT.
Exodus 34:6-9 "And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, MERCIFUL AND GRACIOUS, longsuffering, and abundant in GOODNESS AND TRUTH, 7 KEEPING MERCY FOR THOUSANDS, FORGIVING INIQUITY and TRANSGRESSION AND SIN, and that WILL BY NO MEANS CLEAR THE GUILTY; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. 8And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped. 9And he said, If now I have found GRACE in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and PARDON OUR INIQUITY AND SIN , and take us for THINE INHERITANCE."


does this seem like there is no mercy or grace in the Law of moses? consider this. This is after Moses broke the firt tablets because of isreals great sin against the Lord, He just had gotten down the mountain from receiving the commandments and was so enraged that He broke the tablets that God had written with His finger. if there was no mercy, Why then did moses go back to interced for the people ( as Jesus does for us) and why then did God write the commandments a second time? Because God never changes, He has always saved by Grace, infact man was made in Gods grace. His true Grace that isnt opposed to obeying His word labelling it " works for salvation"


There is so much Grace in the old testament , God is shown a merciful and Loving God, He hasnt changed, the gospel was sent to change us from rebels to obedienct children. we couldnt se Gods mercy because of our sin bound under the mosaic Law, sin changes our perception of God. Theyu saw God Just before He gave the commandments and they were terrified and begged moses to ask God not to speak or show Himself to them anymore saying " we will die". and again God in His mercy made moses the mediator between Himself, and isreal. Thats why " the Law came through Moses" because He was the mediator at that time. Not so now, Because Jesus is the One Mediator Now. Hebrews makes this abundantly clear. God hasnt changed, the gospel is the power to change man.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#27
acceptance grace - which has nothing to do with our behavior

empowering grace - enables you to be who the Father sees you are in Christ

Trouble with the above is no repentance, confession or desire to walk in righteousness.
This is merely you are guilty but forgiven, so now you can be sinless.


So why would a sinner who is a slave to sin, be forgiven when they have no intention to
not repeat the same sin again, and because they are forgiven, why would they behave
as God desires when their hearts are in full rebellion against Him.
??? How did you get that from Grace777 statement??? The underline you just inserted and doesn't represent what he believes and says at all...

And the 2nd paragraph is a straw man creation...going to keep reading before commenting more.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#28
Personally I believe there are different aspects to the grace of God. Both aspects are God's divine influence on the heart of man to show His kindness and love towards us - which is unmerited - meaning - you do nothing to achieve or earn this grace. It's like getting the wet with the water. When you get Jesus - you get grace. Be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

Grace doesn't leave you in the condition you were found in.



I was taught that there is more than 2 aspects of grace.

1. Prevenient grace
2. Justifying grace
3. Sanctifying grace

We could also talk about obstacles to grace and means of grace.

I have a ton of scriptures from the different talks when I attended my Emmaus walk.

If you ever get a chance, I highly recommend finding a sponsor and going.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#29
I was taught that there is more than 2 aspects of grace.

1. Prevenient grace
2. Justifying grace
3. Sanctifying grace

We could also talk about obstacles to grace and means of grace.

I have a ton of scriptures from the different talks when I attended my Emmaus walk.

If you ever get a chance, I highly recommend finding a sponsor and going.
I have never heard of those terms before but I have no doubt that there are myriads of shades of grace because if you ever do a study on grace through the NT - it is amazing ( Hey..that might make a good title for a song one day...:)..)

I do know that Paul said that in the ages to come the Father is going to be showing us the riches of His grace towards us in kindness. Imagine how "rich" God is?

Ephesians 2:7 (NASB)

[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.


What is An "Emmaus Walk"? I have never heard of that.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#30
Here is the outline/scriptures for Prevenient grace

* God's gift of relationship and salvation
Ephesians 2v4-9

* covenants:
With Noah..Genesis 9v 8-17
With Abraham ...Genesis 15 v. 18-21
Between Moses & Israelites...Exodus 19 v. 3-6
With David.... 2 Samuel 7 v. 5-16

God's divine love:
Psalm 136
Jeremiah 31 v 3

The seeking shepherd
Ezekiel 34 v 11-16
John 10 v 11
3 parables of the lost: Luke 15

God is pursuing us:
Isaiah 49 v 1
Psalm 23

God's son came to die for us
Romans 5 v 6-11

A unique relationship with God
Genesis 1v.26

Co heirs with Christ
John 3 v 1
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#31
Ariel...what does the term "Prevenient grace" mean?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#32
Our Wesleyan Heritage | The United Methodist Church

Prevenient grace
God’s grace stirs up within us a desire to know God and empowers us to respond to God’s invitation to be in relationship with God. God’s grace enables us to discern differences between good and evil and makes it possible for us to choose good….

God takes the initiative in relating to humanity. We do not have to beg and plead for God’s love and grace. God actively seeks us!

********

Justifying Grace
Paul wrote to the church in Corinth: “In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them” (2 Corinthians 5:19). And in his letter to the Roman Christians, Paul wrote: “But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

These verses demonstrate the justifying grace of God. They point to reconciliation, pardon, and restoration. Through the work of God in Christ our sins are forgiven, and our relationship with God is restored


********
Conversion
This process of salvation involves a change in us that we call conversion. Conversion is a turning around, leaving one orientation for another. It may be sudden and dramatic, or gradual and cumulative. But in any case, it’s a new beginning. Following Jesus’ words to Nicodemus, “You must be born anew” (John 3:7 RSV), we speak of this conversion as rebirth, new life in Christ, or regeneration.

*******
Sanctifying Grace
Salvation is not a static, one-time event in our lives. It is the ongoing experience of God’s gracious presence transforming us into whom God intends us to be

Through God’s sanctifying grace, we grow and mature in our ability to live as Jesus lived. As we pray, study the Scriptures, fast, worship, and share in fellowship with other Christians, we deepen our knowledge of and love for God. As we respond with compassion to human need and work for justice in our communities, we strengthen our capacity to love neighbor. Our inner thoughts and motives, as well as our outer actions and behavior, are aligned with God’s will and testify to our union with God.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#33
Ariel...what does the term "Prevenient grace" mean?
That before we even thought to search or seek God, he called out to us and reached for us while we were still sinners in rebellion against Him.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#34
Excerpt from, "Knowing God", by J. I. Packer


His Restoring Grace Waits for You


What is grace? In the New Testament, grace means God's love in action towards men who merited the opposite of love. Grace means God moving heaven and earth to save sinners who could not lift a finger to save themselves. Grace means God sending his only Son to descend into hell on the cross so that we guilty ones might be reconciled to God and received into heaven. "God hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

The New Testament knows both a will of grace and a work of grace. The former is God's eternal plan to save; the latter is God's 'good work in you' (Philippians 1:6), whereby He calls man into living fellowship with Christ (1 Corinthians 1:9), raises them from death to life (Ephesians 2:1-6), seals them as His own by the gift of His Spirit (Ephesians 1:13), transforms them into Christ's image (2 Corinthians 3:18), and will finally raise their bodies in glory (Romans 8:31; 1 Corinthians 15;47 -54). It was fashionable among Protestant scholars some years ago to say that Grace means God's loving attitude as distinct from His loving work, but that is an unscriptural distinction. In (for instance) 1 Corinthians 15:10 – 'by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain: but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I but the grace of God which was with me' - the word 'grace' clearly denotes God's loving work in Paul, whereby He made him first a Christian and then a minister.

What is the purpose of grace? Primarily, to restore man's relationship with God. When God lays the foundation of this restorative relationship, by forgiving our sins as we trust His Son, He does so in order that henceforth we and He may live in fellowship, and what He does in renewing our nature is intended to make us capable of, and actually to lead us into, the exercise of love, trust, delight, hope, and obedience Godward – those acts which, from our side, make up the reality of fellowship with God, who is constantly making Himself known to us. This is what all the work of Grace aims at – an ever deeper knowledge of God, and an ever closer fellowship with Him. Grace is God drawing us as sinners closer and closer to Himself.

How does God in grace prosecute this purpose? Not by shielding us from assault by the world, the flesh, and the devil, nor by protecting us from burdensome and frustrating circumstances, nor yet by shielding us from troubles created by our own temperament and psychology; but rather by exposing us to all these things, so as to overwhelm us with a sense of our own inadequacy, and to drive us to cling to Him more closely. This is the ultimate reason, from our standpoint, why God fills our lives with troubles and perplexities of one sort and another – it is to ensure that we shall learn to hold Him fast. The reason why the Bible spends so much of its time reiterating that God is a strong Rock, a firm defense, and a sure refuge and help for the weak, is that God spends so much of His time bringing home to us that we are weak, both mentally and morally, and dare not trust ourselves to find, or to follow, the right road. When we walk along a clear road feeling fine, and someone takes our arm to help us, as likely as not we shall impatiently shake him off; but when we are caught in rough country in the dark, with a storm getting up and our strength spent, and someone takes our arm to help us, we shall thankfully lean on him. And God wants us to feel that our way through life is rough and perplexing, so that we may learn thankfully to lean on Him. Therefore, He takes steps to drive us out of self-confidence to trust in Himself – and the classical scriptural phrase for the secret of the godly man's life, 'to wait on the Lord'.

This truth has many applications. One of the most startling is that God actually uses our sins and mistakes to this end. He employs the educative discipline of failures and mistakes very frequently. It is striking to see how much of the Bible deals with men of God making mistakes, and God chastening them for it. Abraham, promised a son, but made to wait for him, loses patience, makes the mistake of acting the amateur Providence, and begets Ismael – and is made to wait for 13 more years before God speaks to him again (Genesis 16:16 – 17:1). Moses makes the mistake of trying to save his people by acts of self-assertion, throwing his weight about, killing an Egyptian, insisting on sorting out the Israelites private problems for them – and finds himself banished for many decades to the backside of the desert, to bring him to a less vainglorious mind. David makes a run of mistakes – seducing Bathsheba and getting Uriah killed, neglecting his family, numbering the people for prestige – and in each case is chastened bitterly. Jonah makes the mistake of running away from God's call – and finds himself inside a great fish. So we might go on. But the point to stress is that the human mistake, and the immediate divine displeasure, were in no case the end of the story. Abraham learned to wait for God's time. Moses was cured of his self-confidence (indeed his subsequent diffidence was itself almost sinful! – See Exodus 4:14). David found repentance after each of his lapses, and was closer to God at the end then at the beginning. Jonah prayed from the fishes belly, and lived to fulfill his mission to Nineveh. God can bring good out of the extremes of our own folly; God can restore the years that the locust has eaten. They say that those who never make mistakes never make anything; certainly, these men made mistakes, but through their mistakes God taught them to know His grace, and to cling to him in a way that would never have happened otherwise. Is your trouble a sense of failure? The knowledge of having made some ghastly mistake? Go back to God; His restoring Grace waits for you.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#35
I wish we would stop labeling every thing as a descriptive and call it Devine Grace.
It is only a grace found in God as far as I can see. To explain it with its description makes it to confusing and to tell ya the truth I wouldn't repeat it as a witness or teaching it as a doctrine.
Scripture tells me the lord looks for good in anything and any one.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#36
Excerpt from, "Knowing God", by J. I. Packer


His Restoring Grace Waits for You


What is grace? ... Grace means God sending his only Son to descend into hell on the cross so that we guilty ones might be reconciled to God and received into heaven. "God hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

The New Testament knows both a will of grace and a work of grace.

The former is God's eternal plan to save; the latter is God's 'good work" in you......It was fashionable among Protestant scholars some years ago to say that Grace means God's loving attitude as distinct from His loving work, but that is an unscriptural distinction.

In (for instance) 1 Corinthians 15:10 – - the word 'grace' clearly denotes God's loving work in Paul, whereby He made him first a Christian and then a minister.

What is the purpose of grace?
Primarily, to restore man's relationship with God. When God lays the foundation of this restorative relationship, by forgiving our sins as we trust His Son, He does so in order that henceforth we and He may live in fellowship, and what He does in renewing our nature is intended to make us capable of, and actually to lead us into, the exercise of love, trust, delight, hope, and obedience Godward – those acts which, from our side, make up the reality of fellowship with God, who is constantly making Himself known to us. This is what all the work of Grace aims at – an ever deeper knowledge of God, and an ever closer fellowship with Him. Grace is God drawing us as sinners closer and closer to Himself.

How does God in grace prosecute this purpose?
Not by shielding us from assault by the world, the flesh, and the devil, nor by protecting us from burdensome and frustrating circumstances, nor yet by shielding us from troubles created by our own temperament and psychology; but rather by exposing us to all these things, so as to overwhelm us with a sense of our own inadequacy, and to drive us to cling to Him more closely. This is the ultimate reason, from our standpoint, why God fills our lives with troubles and perplexities of one sort and another – it is to ensure that we shall learn to hold Him fast. The reason why the Bible spends so much of its time reiterating that God is a strong Rock, a firm defense, and a sure refuge and help for the weak, is that God spends so much of His time bringing home to us that we are weak, both mentally and morally, and dare not trust ourselves to find, or to follow, the right road. When we walk along a clear road feeling fine, and someone takes our arm to help us, as likely as not we shall impatiently shake him off; but when we are caught in rough country in the dark, with a storm getting up and our strength spent, and someone takes our arm to help us, we shall thankfully lean on him. And God wants us to feel that our way through life is rough and perplexing, so that we may learn thankfully to lean on Him. Therefore, He takes steps to drive us out of self-confidence to trust in Himself – and the classical scriptural phrase for the secret of the godly man's life, 'to wait on the Lord'.

This truth has many applications. One of the most startling is that God actually uses our sins and mistakes to this end. He employs the educative discipline of failures and mistakes very frequently. It is striking to see how much of the Bible deals with men of God making mistakes, and God chastening them for it. Abraham, promised a son, but made to wait for him, loses patience, makes the mistake of acting the amateur Providence, and begets Ismael – and is made to wait for 13 more years before God speaks to him again (Genesis 16:16 – 17:1). Moses makes the mistake of trying to save his people by acts of self-assertion, throwing his weight about, killing an Egyptian, insisting on sorting out the Israelites private problems for them – and finds himself banished for many decades to the backside of the desert, to bring him to a less vainglorious mind. David makes a run of mistakes – seducing Bathsheba and getting Uriah killed, neglecting his family, numbering the people for prestige – and in each case is chastened bitterly. Jonah makes the mistake of running away from God's call – and finds himself inside a great fish. So we might go on. But the point to stress is that the human mistake, and the immediate divine displeasure, were in no case the end of the story. Abraham learned to wait for God's time. Moses was cured of his self-confidence (indeed his subsequent diffidence was itself almost sinful! – See Exodus 4:14). David found repentance after each of his lapses, and was closer to God at the end then at the beginning. Jonah prayed from the fishes belly, and lived to fulfill his mission to Nineveh. God can bring good out of the extremes of our own folly; God can restore the years that the locust has eaten. They say that those who never make mistakes never make anything; certainly, these men made mistakes, but through their mistakes God taught them to know His grace, and to cling to him in a way that would never have happened otherwise. Is your trouble a sense of failure? The knowledge of having made some ghastly mistake? Go back to God; His restoring Grace waits for you.
Took notes....
I am not sure about the stuff in blue.

I see how God can teach us from our mistakes, but I am not sure he causes trouble in our lives so we can cling more towards him.

In my life, I tend to cause myself enough trouble, but God rescues me from my own foolishness.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#37
??? How did you get that from Grace777 statement??? The underline you just inserted and doesn't represent what he believes and says at all...

And the 2nd paragraph is a straw man creation...going to keep reading before commenting more.
There is a simple truth. Every time I talk of repentance being turning from sin and
walking in righteousness while turning to God it is said this is impossible.
Confession is verbalising repentance.

Now time and again total inability to be righteous is stated.
Now if this is ones position my summary is true.

Why should I believe G7 has changed? He has shown himself in
only one place, and feels his version of Grace is an insult to
believers. I doubt all his smoke screen, because he is merely
a dispensationalist.

Jesus love and grace works only through full repentance, from an
open heart.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#38


What believers in a self-effort/self-performance D.I.Y. holiness/righteousness based mindset and the self-appointed "fruit inspectors" have a very hard time with is the "acceptance grace" part...this just drives them nuts...and I understand why..it is scandalous and it "conflicts" with our religious man-made traditions.

It is easy to read in too much into words in a biblical sense when used by unbelievers.
God does not accept us without a broken heart to sin and a desire to walk righteously.

Anything less is heresy. To have faith in Christ is to walk in His ways.

In Christ I am fully accepted as a work in progress, but walking in Christ's ways.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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My answer to legalism. True repentance from an open heart.

The whole argument centres round what a defiled heart is and how we become real.
It is obvious to me many just show themselves but are lost within.

Faith can be escapism, pretend, or real. I am a witness to reality from the heart.
Love through the cross changes us if we let it. The how is our walk.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#40
You have G777 position misrepresented...stick to presenting only your own and give others the respect to present theirs.