why does" Grace" change the word?

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A

Ariel82

Guest
#41
I wish we would stop labeling every thing as a descriptive and call it Devine Grace.
It is only a grace found in God as far as I can see. To explain it with its description makes it to confusing and to tell ya the truth I wouldn't repeat it as a witness or teaching it as a doctrine.
Scripture tells me the lord looks for good in anything and any one.
Defining terms helps people from arguing needlessly.

For example, PeterJens and Followjesus strongly support Sanctifying grace, while Grace777 loves to talk about justifying grace.

If they don't recognize that they speak of two different aspects of God's grace, then there might be misunderstanding and conflict as different Bible verses are quoted to support each type of grace.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#42
You have G777 position misrepresented...stick to presenting only your own and give others the respect to present theirs.

This has been going on for over a year now and I just ignore what is being said.

What happens in some people's minds is this:

Someone makes the statement:

"What a beautiful blue sky the Lord gave us today."

Someone else responds back to the above statement:

"What? The sky is not green- everyone knows that the sky is blue - you are lawless and an enemy of Christ, a heretic and false teacher, satanic, delusional, you don't repent....etc".

When people have this kind of a mindset - it is impossible to have any kind of a rational discussion with them as they continually "see" something else than what is actually said. They then proceed to talk as if this "made-up thought" is real.

And sometimes we can just agree to disagree too but to deliberately mis-represent what is really being said is deceitful and with these types I have no interaction with until I see that they are at the very least being honest in their discussions and not being abusive and insulting others.

As the saying goes - There is something wrong in Denmark and is most likely just a waste of time to interact with such a mindset as no good can come out of it until repentance is granted by the Lord.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#43
Ironically, you both hold the same or very similar positions on the topic. Just different terminology.

Oh well, maybe best not to converse then.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#44
Defining terms helps people from arguing needlessly.

For example, PeterJens and Followjesus strongly support Sanctifying grace, while Grace777 loves to talk about justifying grace.

If they don't recognize that they speak of two different aspects of God's grace, then there might be misunderstanding and conflict as different Bible verses are quoted to support each type of grace.
Actually I have quoted Titus 2:11-12 over 100x times here in CC which speaks of grace "teaching" us to live godly in this world.

What I do say is that without the foundation of "acceptance grace" first - we cannot properly walk in the grace that empowers us to live godly in this world.

The term justifying grace would come after acceptance grace.

The problem in my mind is that people agree what a godly life looks like when the fruit of the spirit is bearing in our lives. Where people have a conflict is in the way this transformation takes place.

My stance is that the very same way we have received Christ - which is by grace through faith in what He ash already done for us - we walk in the very same manner for the rest of our lives.

Colossians 2:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,

[SUP]7 [/SUP] having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#45
Still don't understand your terms G777, where does conversion fit?

I didn't think there was an order to salvation and that all three types of grace works together to save a soul..but you add two more types: acceptance and empowering grace?

Is Your definition of empowering grace the same as Sanctifying grace?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#46
Still don't understand your terms G777, where does conversion fit?

I didn't think there was an order to salvation and that all three types of grace works together to save a soul..but you add two more types: acceptance and empowering grace?

Is Your definition of empowering grace the same as Sanctifying grace?
Conversion fits in when we hear the message of the gospel of our salvation and we believe and then are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13.

There is an order to salvation for sure. God loves us dearly and draws us to Him - we hear the message of Christ's finished work for us, we believe - we are sealed, as we have received Christ - we walk in Him.

It is all by grace through faith in Christ alone. There is the fruit of His life bearing in and through us which results in good works of some sort

I have never heard of your terms used with grace before but I think I understand them. Acceptance grace is the "why" of the gospel. Empowering or as you call it sanctifying grace is the "effect" of the gospel.

I would say that empowering grace and sanctifying grace are the same if I am understanding you correctly.

 
Feb 24, 2015
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#47
Conversion fits in when we hear the message of the gospel of our salvation and we believe and then are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13.
This talisman gospel has no repentance or conviction of sin, followed by confession and faith.
The cross means nothing other than a talisman, if the heart does not recognise its total inability
to be good in its own right.

This is a common problem with 2nd generation christians who have grown up in the church
and do not know sinful society, so project only from their own social circle as to what sin
and its consequences actually are, which is often so superficial and hyper legalistic it is
worthless.

If you literally have let everything go, and endulged in all the sinful activity you can
and then come to Christ you know what real repentance is, and you do not leave it out
like a theological add in that does not matter. Sin is everything, judgement, hell, damnation,
lostness, betrayal, evil.

But to dyed in the wool church going folk who converted 40 years ago, it is a distant memory.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#48
Took notes....
I am not sure about the stuff in blue.

I see how God can teach us from our mistakes, but I am not sure he causes trouble in our lives so we can cling more towards him.

In my life, I tend to cause myself enough trouble, but God rescues me from my own foolishness.
It's not that He causes them, but that He allows them.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#49
Spiritual dilemma

If believers have not truly repented of their sins and trusted in Christ, how can anything
in their experience be relied upon.

1. Ones heart is still in conflict
2. Ones conscience still convicts of unresolved sin
3. Ones behaviour is still not redeemed
4. Ones spirit is not born again, just euphoric for freedom without pain
5. Ones understanding is in denial of much of scripture, because the HS is not there

The version of faith they will gravitate towards is grace alone, with continual conviction.
The more one tries the law, it will just convict one of failure and farce.
And ofcourse repentance will be just changing ones mind, because that is all one has done.

Now I have no respect for people in this situation because they are outside the Kingdom
yet claim not only they know Christ but all others are anti-Christ.

To hunger and thirst for righteousness is our life, knowing in a repentant heart the cross can
bring this about through love working in and through us.

But the talisman testimony that they know nothing of this, is there obvious antagonism and
hatred towards it, it is like a sore they cannot remove and something they lie about
constantly, though we should be brothers and sisters in Christ, it is obvious from them, we are not.

Encouragement to love, to be righteous, to have an open heart to God is called "porn".

How in heaven a follower of Christ could ever say this is absurd.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#50
What is like porn is to have others in the body of Christ call them names and distort what is being said. That is what is like porn to our minds and it is defiling.

When people add personal name calling to others and then say we should live godly after defiling them first - that is bringing poison to others.

This grieves the Holy Spirit within us because we are not giving out words of grace but poison mixed in with a supposedly call for living godly.

Ephesians 4:29-30 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.

[SUP]30 [/SUP] Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.



There is neither acceptance grace nor sanctifying grace with this sort of behavior.

James 3:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

The sky is blue...
 
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gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,748
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#51
truly repent of sin. I love how these guys just throw out these terms and never bother to define them. this is so confusing to new or young believers, and should not be done.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#52
What is like porn is to have others in the body of Christ call them names and distort what is being said. That is what is like porn to our minds and it is defiling.

When people add personal name calling to others and then say we should live godly after defiling them first - that is bringing poison to others.

This grieves the Holy Spirit within us because we are not giving out words of grace but poison mixed in with a supposedly call for living godly.
Hi Talisman believer,

You hate being labelled because this is exactly what you do all the time.
DIY salvationists, etc. is your constant badge, or even your porn label.

And I am not distorting you at all or what your teachers preach, which you
will deny if things go wrong.

So I am surprised you have no conscience or self awareness of the poison you
continually spread and the lies and distortions you bring.

But this is an open forum, and I wish you well, because you weed out those who
listen to Christ from those who do not.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#53
Hi Followjesus,

I hope you don't mind but I have made your text a little bit bigger so people like me with Glasses can read it
:cool:

Just a technical note - you can enlarge the text in your web browser just by pushing ctrl and "+" sign as much as you wish, without making it larger for the rest of us.

You can of course make it smaller again with ctrl and "-" sign.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#54
The test of blasphemy

Disowning true repentance before the cross, a humble heart, a desire to walk righteously,
showing the signs of repentance and walking in Jesus's ways.

We are called to obey the law of Christ.

Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:2

To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
1 Cor 9:21

Sin is breaking the law of Christ, fulfilling it is walking in the Spirit, in love and faith
which empowers fulfillment of the written word.

Some claim pointing out both the condemnation and rebellion in others is wrong, but
if it is the truth, and they are both false teachers and in unbelief and rebellion, it
would be sin to not point it out as we are commanded to do.

Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
1 Cor 15:58

So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
2 Thess 2:15

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.
1 Peter 3:15

Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.
2 Tim 4:2

This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith
Titus 1:13
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#55
it is interesting indeed. purification according to Jesus isnt accomplished By Grace though in my own understanding.

john 15:3 "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. "

ephesians 5:26-27 "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

There are cleansing rites taught in the Law of moses, various rules detailing different situations and what the child of God was to do to be considered clean again after for example " touching a dead body, or having an emmission of semen, or a woman after Her monthly "uncleanliness" the Law taught what to do in different circumstances like these to cleanse yourself before God. Jesus gospel is about cleansing the inner places of our heart, or " the inside of the dish" which He says " then the outside will be clean"

David prayed " creat in me a clean Heart o Lord" The gospel does this centering on the inner attitudes of our heart " Lust, hate, greed, unforgiveness, pride, envy ect.. His word is what cleanses us His teachings, His ways, the gospel.

this is my own understanding though, thanks for sharing that :) God bless you.

I am confused. The scripture you used proves purification is done by grace (the word, not works) so what did you mean?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#56
it probably should have been " why does the word grace, change Gods Truth" or something along those lines. The grace taught correctly is one thing, but the grace that omits the validity of the gospel " changes" the word in certain minds"

its like having 3 teenagers, you tell them all" if you clean your rooms, well go to the fair, but if you dont clean your room you dont get to go and youll be grounded for a week"

One Kid Hers His parent, gets to work cleaning His room, another Kid tries to say " ill do it later dad can i still go, dad says nope i already made my offer your choice the fair, or be grounded so the Kid repents and goes and cleans his room"

well, the 3rd Kid He is different He thinks this " Im dads favorite, He said we have to clean our rooms, but hell never ground me, and hell take me too, its just an idle threat. I dont need to do what He says, He is good and He loves me, so instead of cleaning my room, im gonna go upstairs and put together a nice outfit so i can look good when im at the fair"

Gods word is all about learning and obeying Gods will that is expressed to us in His word, the gog teaches " because Im a son, what dad says is irrelevant im favored, im the favorite, im above His rules" it even goes further " those 2 kids actually cleaning thier room haha man they'll never be able to go to the fair like me, they just should know that because dad loves us......what He says to do is irrelevant."

modern grace distortion is a terrible thing man, like spoiling children.
Grace is grace, The churches view of grace since the 3rd century has been a terrible thing. SO be careful not to appose one view with a view which is just as bad.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,748
6,332
113
#57
The test of blasphemy

Disowning true repentance before the cross, a humble heart, a desire to walk righteously,
showing the signs of repentance and walking in Jesus's ways.

We are called to obey the law of Christ.

Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:2

To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
1 Cor 9:21

Sin is breaking the law of Christ, fulfilling it is walking in the Spirit, in love and faith
which empowers fulfillment of the written word.

Some claim pointing out both the condemnation and rebellion in others is wrong, but
if it is the truth, and they are both false teachers and in unbelief and rebellion, it
would be sin to not point it out as we are commanded to do.

Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
1 Cor 15:58

So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
2 Thess 2:15

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.
1 Peter 3:15

Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.
2 Tim 4:2

This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith
Titus 1:13
works salvationism 101- pluck verses out of context to make the Bible say things it does not say.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#58
The sky is blue....

The grace of God "teaches" us how to live godly in this present world.

Only the true message of the finished work of Christ brings the grace that is needed to live in this world by the spirit within us in our new creation in Christ.

The preaching of Christ brings the revelation of Him and what He has already done which brings God's divine influence on our hearts. This manifests in both "acceptance and empowering" to reflect the life of Christ in us so that others can experience His grace and love towards them in and through us.
Amen!

True grace teaches us to walk in love out of gratitude as we learn to walk in the spirit.

False grace (legalism or licentiousness) teaches us to continue to walk in the flesh. so we can not walk in the spirit.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#59
You have G777 position misrepresented...stick to presenting only your own and give others the respect to present theirs.

A broken record.. :(
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#60
Defining terms helps people from arguing needlessly.

For example, PeterJens and Followjesus strongly support Sanctifying grace, while Grace777 loves to talk about justifying grace.

If they don't recognize that they speak of two different aspects of God's grace, then there might be misunderstanding and conflict as different Bible verses are quoted to support each type of grace.

Grace is grace.

I think this is a problem with the church, Just call it what it is.. there would be so much less confusion.

Sanctifying grace is no different than justifying grace. they are interrelated. We do not deserve to be sanctified or justified. They are terms which are effects God has done to us.. apart from our works.

Some people are not talking about grace at all. they can call it sanctifying grace all they want, there is no grace in their teaching whatsoever.