Why don't we have a perfect bible today?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
K

Kerry

Guest
#81
To the OP, the reason why we do not have a perfect bible is because it is written by men. God chose this method and moved on the hearts of men to write while the Holy Spirit searched the vocabulary of the man to pick and chose the best word. Anything that is handled by a man will not be perfect. God requires faith. Jesus spoke in parables, why not just speak what is meant. First of the the mind of God is so brilliant that we could not conceive it so it had to be in terms that a man could understand. I meant try to talk to an ant. First you must become an ant and that is exactly what God did. To find the true meaning of Scripture, yes knowing Hebrew and Greek will help, But knowing God through prayer and trust will open the word as never before. It is not by might nor by power but by My Spirit Saith the Lord.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#82
I meant the Pharisee's knew Hebrew and Greek yet the still didn't get it.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
#83
So what would happen if Jesus revealed to you a line manuscripts that line up with the KJV (with the respective differences in language)? What then?
You are using the KJV as the standard. If such an ancient exists (and we do not know that it does not. We only know that it has not been found) then that ALL translations would have to measured against that standard, not the other way around.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#84
The King James is the Standard all other modern texts are derived from it and cross examined to the original languages. The King James is the only bible that people died for and burnt at the stake or imprisoned by the Catholic Church.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
#85
The King James is the Standard all other modern texts are derived from it and cross examined to the original languages. The King James is the only bible that people died for and burnt at the stake or imprisoned by the Catholic Church.
Nonsense!!!!!!
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#88
the grass-roots spread of Wycliffe's Bible resulted in a death sentence for any unlicensed possession of Scripture in English—even though translations in all other major European languages had been accomplished and made available.[SUP][

Tyndale had to learn Hebrew in Germany due to England's active Edict of Expulsion against the Jews. He worked in an age where Greek was available to the European scholarly community for the first time in centuries. Erasmus compiled and edited Greek Scriptures into the Textus Receptus—ironically, to improve upon the Latin Vulgate—following the Renaissance-fueling Fall of Constantinople in 1453 and the dispersion of Greek-speaking intellectuals and texts into a Europe which previously had access to none. Sharing Erasmus' translation ideals, Tyndale took the ill-regarded, unpopular and awkward Middle-English "vulgar" tongue, improved upon it using Greek and Hebrew syntaxes and idioms, and formed an Early Modern English basis that Shakespeare and others would later follow and build upon as Tyndale-inspired vernacular forms took over.[SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP] When a copy of The Obedience of a Christian Man fell into the hands of Henry VIII, the king found the rationale to break the Church in England from the Roman Catholic Church in 1534.[SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP][SUP][page needed]

[/SUP]
In 1535, Tyndale was arrested and jailed in the castle of Vilvoorde (Filford) outside Brussels for over a year. In 1536 he was convicted of heresy and executed by strangulation, after which his body was burnt at the stake. His dying request that the King of England's eyes would be opened seemed to find its fulfillment just two years later with Henry's authorization of The Great Bible for the Church of England—which was largely Tyndale's own work. Hence, the Tyndale Bible, as it was known, continued to play a key role in spreadingReformation ideas across the English-speaking world and eventually, on the global British Empire.

Notably, in 1611, the 54 independent scholars who created the King James Version drew significantly from Tyndale, as well as translations that descended from his. One estimate suggests the New Testament in the King James Version is 83% Tyndale's, and the Old Testament 76%.[SUP][6][/SUP] With his translation of the Bible the first ever to be printed in English, and a model for subsequent English translations, in 2002, Tyndale was placed at number 26 in the BBC's poll of the 100 Greatest Britons.[SUP][7][/SUP][SUP][8][/SUP][/SUP]
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
#89
the grass-roots spread of Wycliffe's Bible resulted in a death sentence for any unlicensed possession of Scripture in English—even though translations in all other major European languages had been accomplished and made available.[SUP][

Tyndale had to learn Hebrew in Germany due to England's active Edict of Expulsion against the Jews. He worked in an age where Greek was available to the European scholarly community for the first time in centuries. Erasmus compiled and edited Greek Scriptures into the Textus Receptus—ironically, to improve upon the Latin Vulgate—following the Renaissance-fueling Fall of Constantinople in 1453 and the dispersion of Greek-speaking intellectuals and texts into a Europe which previously had access to none. Sharing Erasmus' translation ideals, Tyndale took the ill-regarded, unpopular and awkward Middle-English "vulgar" tongue, improved upon it using Greek and Hebrew syntaxes and idioms, and formed an Early Modern English basis that Shakespeare and others would later follow and build upon as Tyndale-inspired vernacular forms took over.[SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP] When a copy of The Obedience of a Christian Man fell into the hands of Henry VIII, the king found the rationale to break the Church in England from the Roman Catholic Church in 1534.[SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP][SUP][page needed]

[/SUP]
In 1535, Tyndale was arrested and jailed in the castle of Vilvoorde (Filford) outside Brussels for over a year. In 1536 he was convicted of heresy and executed by strangulation, after which his body was burnt at the stake. His dying request that the King of England's eyes would be opened seemed to find its fulfillment just two years later with Henry's authorization of The Great Bible for the Church of England—which was largely Tyndale's own work. Hence, the Tyndale Bible, as it was known, continued to play a key role in spreadingReformation ideas across the English-speaking world and eventually, on the global British Empire.

Notably, in 1611, the 54 independent scholars who created the King James Version drew significantly from Tyndale, as well as translations that descended from his. One estimate suggests the New Testament in the King James Version is 83% Tyndale's, and the Old Testament 76%.[SUP][6][/SUP] With his translation of the Bible the first ever to be printed in English, and a model for subsequent English translations, in 2002, Tyndale was placed at number 26 in the BBC's poll of the 100 Greatest Britons.[SUP][7][/SUP][SUP][8][/SUP][/SUP]
And you feel this proves what?
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#90
It proves that people died and gave their life for the King James bible. No other bible can boast this.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
#91
It proves that people died and gave their life for the King James bible. No other bible can boast this.
May people died to preserve the scripture written in the Greek and other languages as well. This does not give credibility to the quality of those translations. This is a moot argument.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#92
If you say so, but not many English or German or French or Spanish knew Greek, only the priest of the Catholic Church and they literally chained bibles to the podium. I meant why was it called the dark ages? they had sunlight.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
#93
If you say so, but not many English or German or French or Spanish knew Greek, only the priest of the Catholic Church and they literally chained bibles to the podium. I meant why was it called the dark ages? they had sunlight.
Historically, the Catholic Church did not rely on the Greek text but upon the Latin text. The point I am getting at is that because people died to defend any particular translation does not give credibility to that text. People have historically died for things they believed in that were not true.
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#94
You are using the KJV as the standard. If such an ancient exists (and we do not know that it does not. We only know that it has not been found) then that ALL translations would have to measured against that standard, not the other way around.
Who says it has to exist or who says it has to be discovered at a time we say it does? Besides, it is illogical that God would make it hard for the majority of the world to gain access to documents that nobody can really read or understand with 100% certainty. What about the poor man and the fisherman and the common farmer? Do they have to become scribes (Which Jesus warned us about) so that we can understand God's Word? Where in the Bible does it say that we have to look to dead languages and many translations to understand His Word? What happened in Acts chapter 2? Did God require everyone to jump thru a bunch of hurtles so that people of different languages could understand each other? No. Of course not. The Spirit gave everyone the understanding whereby they could understand each other.
 
Last edited:

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
2,638
88
48
#95
It proves that people died and gave their life for the King James bible. No other bible can boast this.
Since when has Tyndale and Erasmus been the King James?
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
#96
Who says it has to exist or who says it has to be discovered at a time we say it does? Besides, it is illogical that God would make it hard for the majority of the world to gain access to documents that nobody can really read or understand with 100% certainty. What about the poor man and the fisherman and the common farmer? Do they have to become scribes (Which Jesus warned us about) so that we can understand God's Word. Where in the Bible does it say that we have to look to dead languages and many translations to understand His Word? What happened in Acts chapter 2? Did Godrrequire everyone to jump thru a bunch of hurtles so that people of different languages could understand each other? No. Of course not. The Spirit gave everyone the understanding whereby they could understand each other.
There is a reason that the scripture was written in what are now dead language. This preserves the meaning of the language as it was written. Only the original documents were inspired. All we have now are copies of the inspired text. These texts have been preserved with incredible accuracy and the Lord has preserved these for us. What we have we have by the grace of God.
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#97
It proves that people died and gave their life for the King James bible. No other bible can boast this.
It proves that people died and gave their life so they could have a copy of the written word of the Lord for themselves, it had nothing at all to do with a certain translation of the word. If you listen to history, look at the history of the way man saw God at that time. Many believed it was God's will that they murder other men based on the way they understood God, for instance. They did not believe that the veil was split so all men were to come to the Lord equally, not as Jews and gentiles any longer. Watch that translation to see these ideas reflected, you can find it there.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#98
Besides, it is illogical that God would make it hard for the majority of the world to gain access to documents that nobody can really read or understand with 100% certainty.
Jason, which principle of logic is violated?
Are you advocating being lazy? The command is to study to show yourself approved.

would make it hard for the majority of the world to gain access to documents that nobody can really read or understand with 100% certainty.
That sounds like the King Jimmy!
But 100 percent certainty on every verse of the Bible is 100 percent impossible for the human bean.
Jason, how many times have you read the Bible thru in any translation?
Do you know the names of the 66 books of the Bible in order?

What about the poor man and the fisherman and the common farmer?
Yeah, what about 'em if all they gots in the King Jimmy. What will they do when they come to "He that letteth will let."
When they read "suffer the little children" are they going to practice child abuse?

You keep going on about "what about this & that"?
What about proving your case (whatever it is) from the Bible instead of speculating on this & that?
 

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
2,638
88
48
#99
Yeah, what about 'em if all they gots in the King Jimmy. What will they do when they come to "He that letteth will let."
When they read "suffer the little children" are they going to practice child abuse?
Thats assuming they could read.

Tyndale was the man who wanted every person to be able to read the Bible. The Geneva Bible was a modern translation which was read by every English speaking person, it went over to the USA on Mayflower, not the King James. YEt again we have to point out that King James and the Anglican authorities despised the Geneva Bible as the notes it contained was Calvinist and Puritan, so King James ordered his version to be printed to replace the Geneva. The King James was not a popular Bible and many people still used the Geneva Bible.

AS I pointed out in another post, the King James copies the translation of Eramus, who translated the end of Revelation from the Latin Vulgate!

The King James only arguments also fail to take into account the illitracy of the general population and the fact that printing was an expensive new process They also seem to forget that Greek is not a dead language, I am sure plenty of Greeks today will point that out.
 
L

Last

Guest
If you say so, but not many English or German or French or Spanish knew Greek, only the priest of the Catholic Church and they literally chained bibles to the podium. I meant why was it called the dark ages? they had sunlight.
Actually, any educated person knew Greek. Uneducated people didn't even know how to read period, so it didn't matter.

Bibles were chained down because they were incredibly expensive. They were made by hand - by the hand of an educated skilled writer. Do you have any idea what that would cost? Throughout history people would steal books.

The term dark ages really isn't applicable anymore. It once referred to the period of time following the fall of the Roman empire when civilization collapsed.