Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?

[Stephen63]

true,

But they started to walk toward the gate which could make them free. they just never made it, and turned back to what the way they were going to begin with..

sort of like a detour.. that got them no where.

What ever happened to the old saying "you're either saved or you're not"?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What ever happened to the old saying "you're either saved or you're not"?

Nothing, It still stands.

One has to "enter" the gate to be saved, One who is just walking to it, is still as they were.. correct?

 

[Stephen63]

Nothing, It still stands.

One has to "enter" the gate to be saved, One who is just walking to it, is still as they were.. correct?

The "turning" is a spiritual thing. "Turning to Christ" would be speaking of salvation. There is no "almost there"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The "turning" is a spiritual thing. "Turning to Christ" would be speaking of salvation. There is no "almost there"

Well thats your opinion. and if you want to place your eternity n that opinion. feel free.

Me, I will understand that many turn when they are given the gospel. and walk with the church for a bit, yet have never trusted Christ, They are still dogs, who are trying to learn new trick, But as we are told. Dogs always return to their own vomit.

why? Because they are still dogs (were never made a new creature in Christ) so no matter how hard they try to act like christians, there true self will eventually be brought forward (unless of course they eat their vomit in private where people can not see them, like many religious people who do not have a relation whip with Christ do.

 

[Chester]

No. John had impostors leaving his church, (If they had been of us they never would have left. But they left to expose the truth, they were never of us)

If I leave angelas church to go to another church, then yes John does not fit.

If I leave angelas church and say I gave God the finger, and want nothing to do with him anymore, I do not believe in him, Then John is talking to, or about me.

I John 2:19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

My opinion on this verse: The ones (antichrists) John is talking about were evidently a part of the church but were not really born again (not "of us"). And because they were not really born again, they eventually left the church. That's the interpretation of the verse.

It does not say: That everyone then or today who leaves a church was never born again. (or even that someone who is "antichrist" could never have been born again).

But the verse does tell us that it is very possible that people who leave churches may just like this group of "antichrists" never really have been born again and never experienced the deep life changing love of God.

But the verse is not a prooftext that everyone who goes "apostate" was never born again. It doesn't say that. It is a historical record of what John says about this particular group of "antichrists".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I John 2:19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

My opinion on this verse: The ones (antichrists) John is talking about were evidently a part of the church but were not really born again (not "of us"). And because they were not really born again, they eventually left the church. That's the interpretation of the verse.

It does not say: That everyone then or today who leaves a church was never born again. (or even that someone who is "antichrist" could never have been born again).

But the verse does tell us that it is very possible that people who leave churches may just like this group of "antichrists" never really have been born again and never experienced the deep life changing love of God.

But the verse is not a prooftext that everyone who goes "apostate" was never born again. It doesn't say that. It is a historical record of what John says about this particular group of "antichrists".

Thats a hard interpretation. and would take much to process.. It means that John wrote things which do not relate to us today. Although I believe everything he wrote pertains to us today.

Anti christs leave, because they were never part of the church to begin with (he does not say this may be why, It does not say some of them, He says they, Which means all of them they are all inclusive)

the different between them and us, is as he said a few verses later.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. [SUP]27 [/SUP]As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, [SUP][i][/SUP]you abide in Him.


Unlike those people who left. The ones who stayed (us if we are saved) have the anointing,, We know truth, We just have to be ware of false teachers. or people who reject christ..

 

[Chester]

Thats a hard interpretation. and would take much to process.. It means that John wrote things which do not relate to us today. Although I believe everything he wrote pertains to us today.

Anti christs leave, because they were never part of the church to begin with (he does not say this may be why, It does not say some of them, He says they, Which means all of them they are all inclusive)

the different between them and us, is as he said a few verses later.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. [SUP]27 [/SUP]As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, [SUP][i][/SUP]you abide in Him.


Unlike those people who left. The ones who stayed (us if we are saved) have the anointing,, We know truth, We just have to be ware of false teachers. or people who reject christ..

I believe also that "everything John wrote relates to us today" and has applications for us today. I am just arguing that this verse is not a blanket statement that anyone who leaves a church and goes apostate was never born again.

You will note in my first post I said, "But the verse does tell us that it is very possible that people who leave churches may just like this group of "antichrists" never really have been born again and never experienced the deep life changing love of God."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe also that "everything John wrote relates to us today" and has applications for us today. I am just arguing that this verse is not a blanket statement that anyone who leaves a church and goes apostate was never born again.

You will note in my first post I said, "But the verse does tell us that it is very possible that people who leave churches may just like this group of "antichrists" never really have been born again and never experienced the deep life changing love of God."

and I would just have to reply again to look at the text.

The word possible and some were never used, So I would interpret it as it is written, and try not to add to the word.

That is what get us in trouble (we can also use the rest of scripture to support this statement)

There is absolutely nothing in the text to suggest that John was making a statement that this was just a "possibility"

 

[Chester]

and I would just have to reply again to look at the text.

The word possible and some were never used, So I would interpret it as it is written, and try not to add to the word.

That is what get us in trouble (we can also use the rest of scripture to support this statement)

There is absolutely nothing in the text to suggest that John was making a statement that this was just a "possibility"

If you want to argue from the context of vs. 20,21 and vs. 26,27 that Christians have the Spirit of God and thus have the anointing and know the truth and are different from the "antichrists", I consider that a valid argument.

I don't consider it valid to say that vs. 19 by itself is a prooftext that all who leave a church as apostates could not have been born again. The verse simply does not say that (my opinion!).

If you want to say that "the rest of Scripture supports this statement" - that is OK - I am not trying to argue your understanding of all of Scripture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you want to argue from the context of vs. 20,21 and vs. 26,27 that Christians have the Spirit of God and thus have the anointing and know the truth and are different from the "antichrists", I consider that a valid argument.

I don't consider it valid to say that vs. 19 by itself is a prooftext that all who leave a church as apostates could not have been born again. The verse simply does not say that (my opinion!).

If you want to say that "the rest of Scripture supports this statement" - that is OK - I am not trying to argue your understanding of all of Scripture.

The whole passage to me is clear (I know you disagree and that is ok)

1. There were people who were part of the church, who now have become antichrists (against Christ)
2. These people left the church
3. We (the church) do not need become discouraged, Because they left to prove that they were never part of the church, (now here is the important part) "if they were part of us (the church), they never would have left"

That last part.. If they were a part of us,, would have to include all in all time,, or it makes no sense.. Because john was not talking about a few people, he spoke of a whole group of people (people who had been a part. and left. and now deny Christ)

so, yes, To me it does say this, I can not see it any other way.

and no. I take the whole context, not just one verse (vs 19), One verse to make a doctrine would be foolish..

 

[eph610]

No, I think Paul is making a statement, We have sinned, and fall short. Short of what? The glory of God. Or gods standard, which is perfection.

It is not a condition, it is a standing. When we put our selves u to Gods standard. We fall well short of it. James said if we break the LEAST of the law we are guilty of the whole law (we fall short.)

Sin is the result of putting self over God and others. And acting on it, Or (like lust in our hearts) focusing on it..

If you believe that sin as power of you, you will hold fast to this interpretation. I am not talking about sinless perfection here either, we will never be perfect, but we do have power over SIN, because SIN a chose not something you are crippled by and have no power over. Empowering grace and walking in the Spirit give you power over SIN.

If it were a standing Paul would have stated for all are sinners, not all have Sinned. It is a condition because in Rom1 and Rom 2 he shows us that nobody is without excuse..Romans 3.24 goes into how the condition, not standing is justified through faith.

You cannot be a sinner saved by grace...you are one or the other...the Epistles and even most of the Psalms show us the distinction between sinner[wicked] and righteous[saint]

This is regarding the Spirit, not the mind, will, emotions, passions and flesh, body of a person...

 

[eph610]

Which is why fruit hunting is a poor and often misleading guide of determining who is saved and who is not saved.

something you and others call fruit inspecting needs to be clarified...I do not have to inspect for fruit, because it is is seen within and upon a person...

Grace777x70 used the analogy of an orange tree on another thread, and I answered by saying that orange trees and many other fruit trees give the fragrance of their fruit, long before the flowering blossoms and fruit is ever present...

If a person is not fragrant...you know instantly and to suggest this is not proper discernment of someone growing up spiritually or not, invalidates many things in the Bible and points to predestination...

 

[Chester]

The whole passage to me is clear (I know you disagree and that is ok)

1. There were people who were part of the church, who now have become antichrists (against Christ)
2. These people left the church
3. We (the church) do not need become discouraged, Because they left to prove that they were never part of the church, (now here is the important part) "if they were part of us (the church), they never would have left"

That last part.. If they were a part of us,, would have to include all in all time,, or it makes no sense.. Because john was not talking about a few people, he spoke of a whole group of people (people who had been a part. and left. and now deny Christ)

so, yes, To me it does say this, I can not see it any other way.

and no. I take the whole context, not just one verse (vs 19), One verse to make a doctrine would be foolish..

OK! I agree to disagree as well. I don't dispute the points 1,2,3 you give: in fact I say a hearty amen!

I do have one quibble with post # 288 : It seems like you began to use accusatory inflammatory statements like: "So I would interpret it as it is written, and try not to add to the word." Or, maybe I am just admitting my anger problem - anyway my first draft of my return post wasn't very nice - I had to delete it all and start over.

I really liked your return post (#290) - the approach, and attitude displayed - not all of the theology!

 

[eph610]

Oh woe! (I had to separate your post into paragraphs, as I could not read it otherwise! I hope I broke it up at the right places!)

So dualism! "My identity does not sin, but my flesh and soul do!" So do you have this kind of split often? It is not a good sign, but I am not going to get into why, or people will be calling me names, maybe even deleting part of my post.

I confess this kind of dualism, saying that I don't sin but my flesh does sounds pretty much like denial. And totally unscriptural. Yes, the OT talks about body and soul, and the NT about spirit, soul and body, but never are they meant to be separated in this life. And the Bible acknowledges over and over that we do need to be wary of our flesh, because sin and other things will affect our spirit.

If our bodies seem to be nothing, then why on earth would Paul tell us to flee from sexual immorality, or any other sin?

"Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body." 1 Cor. 6:18-20

He was writing this to Christians, so obviously we need to watch our flesh, and for more than just sexual immortality.

This also seems to smack of gnosticism, which a member used to say in the past. I didn't understand what he meant then, but I do now.

"Gnosticism is a heresy which is made up of a diverse set of beliefs. It is the teaching based on the idea of gnosis (a Koine Greek word meaning "secret knowledge"), or knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of internal, intuitive means. While Gnosticism thus relies on personal religious experience as its primary authority, early "Christian" Gnostics did adopt their own versions of authoritative Scriptures, such as those found at Nag Hammadi in Egypt.

Gnostics believed that matter, whether it be the physical universe or the humanly body, is evil. It is obvious that there is a great tension between spirit and matter. This effects many of their beliefs and especially the way they perceive(d) the world and God's interactions with it.

Gnosticism commonly held that "salvation is to escape from the bondage of the material existence and travel back to the home from which souls/spirits have fallen." God initiates salvation because he wants to draw back the stray bits and pieces of himself, and so he sends forth an emanation of himself - "a spiritual redeemer" - who comes down from heaven and gives an attempt to teach some of the "divine sparks of Spirit" what their true identity is and where their real home lies. Once they are awakened by this redeemer they can then begin their journey back home. "Salvation is by knowledge - self-knowledge." excerpts from Roger Olsen found on:

http://www.theopedia.com/gnosticism

Your closing paragraph seems to imply that God has given you special knowledge. I guess God struck the scales from your eyes, but not mine, because?? I am not saved? Because I acknowledge that my flesh is weak, but my mind is still learning to control what I can control, and give the rest to God? Because I know God is transforming me into his image? Because I have been following Jesus for 36 years with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength?

"And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ Mark 12:30

Help me out here, please!

And where does obedience to God fit in your picture?

"Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?" Romans 6:16

As nice as it might be to pretend I don't have a body, that would be a lie! God wants us to deal with our flesh, not pretend it doesn't exist! And just because we have been justified, doesn't mean that we don't have to persevere and walk with Christ daily.


"For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised." Hebrews 10:36

"Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." Hebrews 12:3-11.

I know that I have definitely been justified by faith, because of the grace of God. But the Bible is telling us that salvation is more than just a starting point. Being a "new creature" is great, but the fact is, we still are in these bodies, and we won't have perfect bodies till the resurrection. Our minds need to be renewed by the Holy Spirit, and that is a very exciting part of our journey! We simply cannot pretend we are not sinning, or hurting. That is the Word Faith lie summed up in a few words. That is why my friend Nydia died. Because she thought that claiming healing actually made her body not have cancer. She thought she was supposed to deny the truth that she was sick, and paid for it with her death 10 months later, because the cancer metastasized. Very sad.

I am glad that God understands my heart, my body and my spirit. He knows that I hurt! He knows that I get angry sometimes! But he has said in his word, that he will forgive my sins if I confess them, and he not only forgives me, he shows me ways that he is changing me. But also, that transformation will not be finished till he returns. How I rejoice that one day I will have a glorified body, and I will not hurt any more. But until that time, I rejoice in God, and all that he has done, and all he is going to do, including with this weak flesh!

Sometimes our education blinds us to the simple truth of the Gospel....does the Bible say we are made a new creation or not?


Many that do not believe man is a 3 part being have issues with the truth...we are spirit, soul[mind, will, emotions, passions, intellect] and body/flesh....

 

[Stephen63]

I agree...when I listened to the supposed WOF teachings back in the late 80's there was no talk of the grace of God other then to give it lip service. There was no teaching on grace that I ever saw. Lot's of condemnation given though.

You're correct..... Joseph Prince didn't make that stuff up till 1997, LOL!!

 

[eph610]

So you are claiming to be without sin? You never sin? you have ceased all sinning in your life?

If you have sinned since the time you where saved then you are preaching that you have actively chose to fall short and sin.. Because thats the accusation you are laying down against every other person who has sinned since they became Christians...

SIN is CHOICE,....the Bible says as much...I still miss the mark.....I ask forgiveness and move on....I renew my mind so that the works of the flesh and nullified, by walking in the Spirit...

You are either a sinner or you have been saved by grace it cannot be both....that is the simplicity of the Gospel of Grace that many miss...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OK! I agree to disagree as well. I don't dispute the points 1,2,3 you give: in fact I say a hearty amen!

I do have one quibble with post # 288 : It seems like you began to use accusatory inflammatory statements like: "So I would interpret it as it is written, and try not to add to the word." Or, maybe I am just admitting my anger problem - anyway my first draft of my return post wasn't very nice - I had to delete it all and start over.

I really liked your return post (#290) - the approach, and attitude displayed - not all of the theology!

I did not mean it derogatory, Was just explaining what I saw in my view.. if it came across that way forgive me..

 

[Stephen63]

Originally Posted by Adstar

I don't.. I believe people can reject the salvation of Jesus after they had once believed in the salvation of Jesus..

2 Peter 2 KJV
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.



Peter Said It is happened unto them... After they had escaped the the knowledge of the LORD and Savior Jesus Christ.. Peter would never have written this passage if OSAS was true .. He was talking about people who have once been saved who turned away..

um Peter said a dog returned to his vomit, He was a dog. He never became a new creation. He did not return to being a dog (lose salvation and once again become lost, dead to Christ needing to be born again) he was already a dog. Who tried to act like a new creature (child of God.) but could not continue the acting, Why? A Dog returns to his vomit, why? A dog is a dog.

Isn't it amazing how spiritually blind people LOOK RIGHT AT your scripture, & STILL disagree?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you believe that sin as power of you, you will hold fast to this interpretation.

Saying I admit I still fall short. And saying sin has power over me are two different things.. Lets try not to equate them please. Paul said he still struggled to do what he wanted to do, and still had issues stopping to do what he did not want to do. He never claimed sin had power over him, Just that in his flesh, he could not do good..

I am not talking about sinless perfection here either, we will never be perfect, but we do have power over SIN, because SIN a chose not something you are crippled by and have no power over. Empowering grace and walking in the Spirit give you power over SIN.

Yes, But to say we walk in the spirit 24/7 and never look to swerve self in any way would be in my view ignoring who we really are.. and the truth.

That is not to say, Sin has power over me,, It has everything to say, I still have not matured to a way I am perfect. and will not until I am resurrected.

If it were a standing Paul would have stated for all are sinners, not all have Sinned. It is a condition because in Rom1 and Rom 2 he shows us that nobody is without excuse..Romans 3.24 goes into how the condition, not standing is justified through faith.

You cannot be a sinner saved by grace...you are one or the other...the Epistles and even most of the Psalms show us the distinction between sinner[wicked] and righteous[saint]

This is regarding the Spirit, not the mind, will, emotions, passions and flesh, body of a person...

Positionally (in christ) your right

However, conditionally (according to Gods standard as we stand right now) That is not right, I would have to be sinless for this to be true..

I am a sinner saved by grace,

 

[Adstar]

That does not mean all people who believe in eternal security are Calvinist. That is putting people into groups. and what has lead to so much understanding between people..

ie, You teach osas, Thus you are a calvanist, This this is what you believe.

That is a wrong assumption, and causes misunderstanding for those who do not believe that way,, And causes heated debates when the one making the claim "Your a calvanist" will not listen or concede he may be wrong.

I never said that.. I simply stated that OSAS is the same doctrine as calvinists teach... I did not say people who believe in OSAS are all calvinists..