Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?
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E
Interesting, I show this reply was to LadyLynn and not me.....nor did I reply to this one...
Originally Posted by ladylynn
So the new birth has made us Saints who sometimes sin but we are now born again and our life is hidden in Christ.
I replied to you on this one:
I Think you better get it straight or people will think you are intentionally making false accusations towards me and implying I am a liar to divert away from the facts of the issue.....
If you call this your rebuttal, I am forced to say that living habitually in Sin is not found in the Bible, which would then beg me to ask...what are you pushing on people here?
So the new birth has made us Saints who sometimes sin but we are now born again and our life is hidden in Christ.
I replied to you on this one:
I Think you better get it straight or people will think you are intentionally making false accusations towards me and implying I am a liar to divert away from the facts of the issue.....
If you call this your rebuttal, I am forced to say that living habitually in Sin is not found in the Bible, which would then beg me to ask...what are you pushing on people here?
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See it’s not the “fruit” that would have saved Johnny, it was the point that if you are truly saved then these “fruits” will be a natural result of a true conversion. I experienced this very same thing in real life. I sat in church for 5 years listening to “we will always sin”, and once saved always saved (which I do believe in a way, but not how it was being used then), but what wasn’t ever preached was the change that happens when we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It’s not that fruits save or even help save, they are just the evidence that you were really saved. I am a very firm believer that one cannot be saved by the Creator of the universe, have the veal removed, and not radically change and become a “new creature”. The way I see it the works are not chains like most see it, but the way I try to show my gratitude for such a GREAT God that would save a fool like me, not to mention doing it Gods way leads to “good” for me and my family anyway.
G
Interesting, I show this reply was to LadyLynn and not me.....nor did I reply to this one...
Originally Posted by ladylynn
So the new birth has made us Saints who sometimes sin but we are now born again and our life is hidden in Christ.
I replied to you on this one:
I Think you better get it straight or people will think you are intentionally making false accusations towards me and implying I am a liar to divert away from the facts of the issue.....
If you call this your rebuttal, I am forced to say that living habitually in Sin is not found in the Bible, which would then beg me to ask...what are you pushing on people here?
So the new birth has made us Saints who sometimes sin but we are now born again and our life is hidden in Christ.
I replied to you on this one:
I Think you better get it straight or people will think you are intentionally making false accusations towards me and implying I am a liar to divert away from the facts of the issue.....
If you call this your rebuttal, I am forced to say that living habitually in Sin is not found in the Bible, which would then beg me to ask...what are you pushing on people here?
eph610
Senior Member
[h=2]
[FONT="]
A believer can habitually sin. Grace is Grace. They are going to have a miserable life,lose rewards,reign, rank,possibly die the sin unto physical death and a host of eternal blessings. But they are still saved.
And we have to keep in mind that the vast majority of believers are living in RELIGION/EVIL habitually. An even worse state than habitual sin. Why is this never added as a qualifier to His Grace?
To go off your quote, why don't we see the majority of believers saying this?........
So the new birth has made us saints who sometimes live in religion(because they can't and won't live in habitual religion if they are really saved)but we are born again and our life is hidden in Christ.
Believers can and do live in habitual sin and are still saved. Believers who live in the worst possible thing in Gods eyes.....habitual religion are still saved.
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Nobody BUT YOU, consistently make these discussions about personal salvation....Not one thing mentioned in any posts is or are related or directly talk about personal salvation...not one...
A believer can SIN, but will they? Many believers know committing SIN breaks the heart of Father, so why would we want to to do break Fathers heart and put Jesus to shame? Committing Habitual Sin and abiding in Jesus[not talking about salvation here] are clearly refuted in the Bible....In Christ you are either a slave of righteousness or slave to sin, but not both....light cannot fellowship with darkness...
It is next to impossible for a believer to commit and live in Habitual sin....Wanna know why?
Because empowering grace will not let you live that way....
You seem to be saying this:
Before Johnny got saved he was single and fornicating with any woman he could find....married, divorced or single women, prostitutes it did not matter...when Johnny needed that itch scratched, it got it scratched....furthermore when Johnny could not find a woman, he relied porn to satisfy his Sin of fornication......
One night Johnny went to church , heard a message that his fornication did not matter to God, because God's grace would save him and not send him to hell, Johnny felt a little bit sorry for his fornication and he raised his hand and got saved....in the next few weeks, Johnny was continually told that God's Grace kept him from going to hell....Johnny told his grace preacher that another Christian told him, that he should keep porn off his computer and stop sleeping around with women, because it is a SIN and he has been trying in all his physical might and mental strength to keep from fornicating and looking at porn.....the grace preacher told him to stop listening to the religion pushing fruit inspector, because he was questioning your salvation and its OK for believers to live in habitual sin and be saved, because that is how grace works...
Johnny was sooooo relieved that he went out and hired 3 prostitutes and made up for lost time.
Through the following years Johnny still went to church, but avoided the religion pushing fruit inspector people, because he had grace and was still saved......His grace pastor had to "step down" for 2 weeks and then started preaching again, after people found out he was having an affair on his wife....So Johnny's SIN accelerated and was unstoppable, because hey, if my Pastor can do it and he has grace and is saved, then its ok for me too....even though there were times in the quiet places he never talked to anyone about, he heard a small still voice telling him to stop his SIN....
Johnny no longer was satisfied with just women and many women at the same time, so he started dabbling into bi-sexual encounters...Once every week Johnny still heard everything was alright because grace was on his side and he was still saved.....Johnny noticed that the still small voice stopped talking to him...he did not think much about it....when the bi-sexual encounters did not fulfill him, he began homosexual encounters....and full out orgies.....nothing could scratch that itch good enough.....Johnny was also taking copious amounts of drugs and drinking heavily during this entire cycle....every Sunday Johnny was in church hearing about how grace saved him and that nobody should judge him or question the way he lived, because Grace is grace and he was saved.....
One night after drugging and drinking himself sober, unable to perform sexually and at his wits end he heard a voice...the voice told him the answer to his ultimate itch was to be found by taking a nice hot bath....Johnny climbed into the tub and the voice told him....don't forget the razor blade....when Johnny's physical and spiritual states began to collide and he suddenly understood he was dying...he had a very real chill run down his back, because the voice now, was not the voice then.....
But hey gr8grace....we don't need no stinkin fruit, we don't need no stinkin religion and we don't need know stinkin qualifiers....cuz we have grace....
Last edited by eph610; 1 Hour Ago at 01:22 PM.
E
Then your screen is messed up.
eph610
Senior Member
Join DateJune 20th, 2015Age53Posts1,090Rep Power32
Re: Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?
Originally Posted by Gr8grace
A believer can habitually sin. Grace is Grace. They are going to have a miserable life,lose rewards,reign, rank,possibly die the sin unto physical death and a host of eternal blessings. But they are still saved.
And we have to keep in mind that the vast majority of believers are living in RELIGION/EVIL habitually. An even worse state than habitual sin. Why is this never added as a qualifier to His Grace?
To go off your quote, why don't we see the majority of believers saying this?........
So the new birth has made us saints who sometimes live in religion(because they can't and won't live in habitual religion if they are really saved)but we are born again and our life is hidden in Christ.
Believers can and do live in habitual sin and are still saved. Believers who live in the worst possible thing in Gods eyes.....habitual religion are still saved.
Nobody BUT YOU, consistently make these discussions about personal salvation....Not one thing mentioned in any posts is or are related or directly talk about personal salvation...not one...
A believer can SIN, but will they? Many believers know committing SIN breaks the heart of Father, so why would we want to to do break Fathers heart and put Jesus to shame? Committing Habitual Sin and abiding in Jesus[not talking about salvation here] are clearly refuted in the Bible....In Christ you are either a slave of righteousness or slave to sin, but not both....light cannot fellowship with darkness...
It is next to impossible for a believer to commit and live in Habitual sin....Wanna know why?
Because empowering grace will not let you live that way....
You seem to be saying this:
Before Johnny got saved he was single and fornicating with any woman he could find....married, divorced or single women, prostitutes it did not matter...when Johnny needed that itch scratched, it got it scratched....furthermore when Johnny could not find a woman, he relied porn to satisfy his Sin of fornication......
One night Johnny went to church , heard a message that his fornication did not matter to God, because God's grace would save him and not send him to hell, Johnny felt a little bit sorry for his fornication and he raised his hand and got saved....in the next few weeks, Johnny was continually told that God's Grace kept him from going to hell....Johnny told his grace preacher that another Christian told him, that he should keep porn off his computer and stop sleeping around with women, because it is a SIN and he has been trying in all his physical might and mental strength to keep from fornicating and looking at porn.....the grace preacher told him to stop listening to the religion pushing fruit inspector, because he was questioning your salvation and its OK for believers to live in habitual sin and be saved, because that is how grace works...
Johnny was sooooo relieved that he went out and hired 3 prostitutes and made up for lost time.
Through the following years Johnny still went to church, but avoided the religion pushing fruit inspector people, because he had grace and was still saved......His grace pastor had to "step down" for 2 weeks and then started preaching again, after people found out he was having an affair on his wife....So Johnny's SIN accelerated and was unstoppable, because hey, if my Pastor can do it and he has grace and is saved, then its ok for me too....even though there were times in the quiet places he never talked to anyone about, he heard a small still voice telling him to stop his SIN....
Johnny no longer was satisfied with just women and many women at the same time, so he started dabbling into bi-sexual encounters...Once every week Johnny still heard everything was alright because grace was on his side and he was still saved.....Johnny noticed that the still small voice stopped talking to him...he did not think much about it....when the bi-sexual encounters did not fulfill him, he began homosexual encounters....and full out orgies.....nothing could scratch that itch good enough.....Johnny was also taking copious amounts of drugs and drinking heavily during this entire cycle....every Sunday Johnny was in church hearing about how grace saved him and that nobody should judge him or question the way he lived, because Grace is grace and he was saved.....
One night after drugging and drinking himself sober, unable to perform sexually and at his wits end he heard a voice...the voice told him the answer to his ultimate itch was to be found by taking a nice hot bath....Johnny climbed into the tub and the voice told him....don't forget the razor blade....when Johnny's physical and spiritual states began to collide and he suddenly understood he was dying...he had a very real chill run down his back, because the voice now, was not the voice then.....
But hey gr8grace....we don't need no stinkin fruit, we don't need no stinkin religion and we don't need know stinkin qualifiers....cuz we have grace....
eph610
Senior Member
A believer can habitually sin. Grace is Grace. They are going to have a miserable life,lose rewards,reign, rank,possibly die the sin unto physical death and a host of eternal blessings. But they are still saved.
And we have to keep in mind that the vast majority of believers are living in RELIGION/EVIL habitually. An even worse state than habitual sin. Why is this never added as a qualifier to His Grace?
To go off your quote, why don't we see the majority of believers saying this?........
So the new birth has made us saints who sometimes live in religion(because they can't and won't live in habitual religion if they are really saved)but we are born again and our life is hidden in Christ.
Believers can and do live in habitual sin and are still saved. Believers who live in the worst possible thing in Gods eyes.....habitual religion are still saved.
Nobody BUT YOU, consistently make these discussions about personal salvation....Not one thing mentioned in any posts is or are related or directly talk about personal salvation...not one...
A believer can SIN, but will they? Many believers know committing SIN breaks the heart of Father, so why would we want to to do break Fathers heart and put Jesus to shame? Committing Habitual Sin and abiding in Jesus[not talking about salvation here] are clearly refuted in the Bible....In Christ you are either a slave of righteousness or slave to sin, but not both....light cannot fellowship with darkness...
It is next to impossible for a believer to commit and live in Habitual sin....Wanna know why?
Because empowering grace will not let you live that way....
You seem to be saying this:
Before Johnny got saved he was single and fornicating with any woman he could find....married, divorced or single women, prostitutes it did not matter...when Johnny needed that itch scratched, it got it scratched....furthermore when Johnny could not find a woman, he relied porn to satisfy his Sin of fornication......
One night Johnny went to church , heard a message that his fornication did not matter to God, because God's grace would save him and not send him to hell, Johnny felt a little bit sorry for his fornication and he raised his hand and got saved....in the next few weeks, Johnny was continually told that God's Grace kept him from going to hell....Johnny told his grace preacher that another Christian told him, that he should keep porn off his computer and stop sleeping around with women, because it is a SIN and he has been trying in all his physical might and mental strength to keep from fornicating and looking at porn.....the grace preacher told him to stop listening to the religion pushing fruit inspector, because he was questioning your salvation and its OK for believers to live in habitual sin and be saved, because that is how grace works...
Johnny was sooooo relieved that he went out and hired 3 prostitutes and made up for lost time.
Through the following years Johnny still went to church, but avoided the religion pushing fruit inspector people, because he had grace and was still saved......His grace pastor had to "step down" for 2 weeks and then started preaching again, after people found out he was having an affair on his wife....So Johnny's SIN accelerated and was unstoppable, because hey, if my Pastor can do it and he has grace and is saved, then its ok for me too....even though there were times in the quiet places he never talked to anyone about, he heard a small still voice telling him to stop his SIN....
Johnny no longer was satisfied with just women and many women at the same time, so he started dabbling into bi-sexual encounters...Once every week Johnny still heard everything was alright because grace was on his side and he was still saved.....Johnny noticed that the still small voice stopped talking to him...he did not think much about it....when the bi-sexual encounters did not fulfill him, he began homosexual encounters....and full out orgies.....nothing could scratch that itch good enough.....Johnny was also taking copious amounts of drugs and drinking heavily during this entire cycle....every Sunday Johnny was in church hearing about how grace saved him and that nobody should judge him or question the way he lived, because Grace is grace and he was saved.....
One night after drugging and drinking himself sober, unable to perform sexually and at his wits end he heard a voice...the voice told him the answer to his ultimate itch was to be found by taking a nice hot bath....Johnny climbed into the tub and the voice told him....don't forget the razor blade....when Johnny's physical and spiritual states began to collide and he suddenly understood he was dying...he had a very real chill run down his back, because the voice now, was not the voice then.....
But hey gr8grace....we don't need no stinkin fruit, we don't need no stinkin religion and we don't need know stinkin qualifiers....cuz we have grace....
Last edited by eph610; 1 Hour Ago at 01:22 PM.
you then said:
and that is what I replied to.....how would I know from a reply to ladylynn that was an answer to me!?!?!?
That said, you have done a masterful job of dodge ball and implications of the lack of credibility, and creating massive confussion in the hopes nothing sticks to you.... but the issue still stands....
If that was your rebuttal, it does not at all line up with the Bible.....if it does please show my book, chapter and verse in the Word that says you can live habitually in SIN and that is better than living habitually in evil religion....
The pharisees lived in both of the worlds you described and Jesus said their father was the Devil...
So a believer can and does live in habitual sin eh?
That is like saying...I punch my wife in the face every night , but she has never called the police, because she loves me too much....
P
I agree with you. I think the verse in Philippians 1:6 implies this truth. "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."
I think there is another aspect to this discussion that we should consider. I agree with the points that have been made that not all Christians produce a lot of fruit in this life. The key though is that everyone who has been truly born of God does bear some fruit. We can be beset by faults and not overcome sin like we should, but there has to be something about us that is different from those who have not been born of God. I think the real defining difference is our outlook and attitude towards God. True faith in Christ is more than just a belief in Christ as our Savior. True faith requires us to commit our life into his hands, and it requires an agreement with Christ. We agree that we are sinful, deserve judgement, and need his grace. If we don't have this agreement we don't really truly believe we need a Savior. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to awaken us to this truth.
No matter how sinful a Christian is or how riddled with faults he is, he shares one thing in common with more victorious Christians. The true Christian always sides with God even if it condemns himself. This right outlook and love for God, foremost, is the fruit of being born of God. The perfect example is the contrast between David and Saul ( I mentioned this once before in another thread). David's sin of adultery and murder was seemingly far worse than Saul's sin when he disobeyed Samuel's instruction concerning the sacrifice that was to be made. When David was rebuked by Nathan he was crushed and sided with God. Saul when rebuked by Samuel never really "got it" and felt that his spiritual observance should be good enough. Totally different attitudes and outlooks towards God.
Weakness and succumbing to temptation is not the same as constantly justifying and defending the sinful practices in our life or looking for loopholes to keep committing these sins.
I think there is another aspect to this discussion that we should consider. I agree with the points that have been made that not all Christians produce a lot of fruit in this life. The key though is that everyone who has been truly born of God does bear some fruit. We can be beset by faults and not overcome sin like we should, but there has to be something about us that is different from those who have not been born of God. I think the real defining difference is our outlook and attitude towards God. True faith in Christ is more than just a belief in Christ as our Savior. True faith requires us to commit our life into his hands, and it requires an agreement with Christ. We agree that we are sinful, deserve judgement, and need his grace. If we don't have this agreement we don't really truly believe we need a Savior. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to awaken us to this truth.
No matter how sinful a Christian is or how riddled with faults he is, he shares one thing in common with more victorious Christians. The true Christian always sides with God even if it condemns himself. This right outlook and love for God, foremost, is the fruit of being born of God. The perfect example is the contrast between David and Saul ( I mentioned this once before in another thread). David's sin of adultery and murder was seemingly far worse than Saul's sin when he disobeyed Samuel's instruction concerning the sacrifice that was to be made. When David was rebuked by Nathan he was crushed and sided with God. Saul when rebuked by Samuel never really "got it" and felt that his spiritual observance should be good enough. Totally different attitudes and outlooks towards God.
Weakness and succumbing to temptation is not the same as constantly justifying and defending the sinful practices in our life or looking for loopholes to keep committing these sins.
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G
There is absolutely no question that the Lord Jesus Christ will Finish His work that He began in us.
He has all of our work prepared for us.........doesn't mean we ARE going to do it.
This is what ALWAYS get's conveniently overlooked by workers for salvation.
The believer who does not advance and continues in sin or religion,,,,Is disciplined and harshly at times. They will lose ETERNAL blessings, rewards,reign,rank, have SHAME at the JSOC and possibly the sin unto death. A completely miserable existence. But Grace is Grace. Their salvation is SURE.
Workers for salvation are ALWAYS going to say, "No fruit,no salvation."
He has all of our work prepared for us.........doesn't mean we ARE going to do it.
This is what ALWAYS get's conveniently overlooked by workers for salvation.
The believer who does not advance and continues in sin or religion,,,,Is disciplined and harshly at times. They will lose ETERNAL blessings, rewards,reign,rank, have SHAME at the JSOC and possibly the sin unto death. A completely miserable existence. But Grace is Grace. Their salvation is SURE.
Workers for salvation are ALWAYS going to say, "No fruit,no salvation."