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sisterren11492 and others,
I say this to you as gently as I can, a woman is not to teach the word of God or doctrine to any man or usurp authority over the man in the church, the body of Christ (Tim 2:12). The head of every woman is the man and the head of every man is Christ (1Cor 11:3). The man was formed first and then the woman. The woman was beguiled and deceived by the serpent and not the man (1Tim 2:12-14). By those two things alone, that have been recorded in the NT scripture with the confirmation that it actually took place as literal events in (Gen 2:7-3:13), every woman should reverence what God has formed and has testified concerning the truth (Eph 5:33, 1Pt 3:1,5,6).
She can share her portion in the body of Christ and be a testimony of the grace of God. She can preach the gospel of Christ to the unsaved and those that are lost. She can pray and intercede for others because she is a priest (Rev 1:6, 5:10, 20:6). Her body is the temple of God just as much as the man (1Cor 3:16, 4:10). She can use the gifts that God has given her to build up others in the body of Christ (1Cor 12:1-12). She can love the brethren and lay her life down for others and she can teach other women and children in the body under the leadership of her pastor-teacher (Titus 2:3,4), but she must be in subjection to the word of God at all times (Heb 12:1, 1Tim 2:11, Mt 4:4). If the pastor-teacher of the local church, that she has been called to serve, gives her permission or an invitation to freely speak, then she has the liberty to teach what God gives her, but she does so under the government of that local body of believers and is covered by her pastor-teacher. If she teaches something that needs to be corrected the pastor-teacher is available to do that, so the body can be edified and built up in the truth.
In the chat room recently you defended your position against another, who is a regular chat room attendant, and became indignant toward them with cause. Personally, I agree with you. It would have been better to let another defend you in that case (Ps 94:22, Prov 27:2), even when others did not side with you. You could have made a brief statement and emailed the administrator or a moderator with your concern because your concern was legitimate and valid. They would have dealt with that, as they always do, with meekness and wisdom and you would have saved on your emotions. I know that you are very zealous of the Lord and His word and that is much more than just a good thing. As a brother in Christ I would encourage you to remain faithful to that and not waiver in any of your convictions that you have from God. I hope that you will always receive God's grace in every thing that you do in your walk of faith and reliance upon Him.
BTW - I also loved the way that you studied and presented the subject of faith categorically as a doctrine with good understanding.
I say this to you as gently as I can, a woman is not to teach the word of God or doctrine to any man or usurp authority over the man in the church, the body of Christ (Tim 2:12). The head of every woman is the man and the head of every man is Christ (1Cor 11:3). The man was formed first and then the woman. The woman was beguiled and deceived by the serpent and not the man (1Tim 2:12-14). By those two things alone, that have been recorded in the NT scripture with the confirmation that it actually took place as literal events in (Gen 2:7-3:13), every woman should reverence what God has formed and has testified concerning the truth (Eph 5:33, 1Pt 3:1,5,6).
She can share her portion in the body of Christ and be a testimony of the grace of God. She can preach the gospel of Christ to the unsaved and those that are lost. She can pray and intercede for others because she is a priest (Rev 1:6, 5:10, 20:6). Her body is the temple of God just as much as the man (1Cor 3:16, 4:10). She can use the gifts that God has given her to build up others in the body of Christ (1Cor 12:1-12). She can love the brethren and lay her life down for others and she can teach other women and children in the body under the leadership of her pastor-teacher (Titus 2:3,4), but she must be in subjection to the word of God at all times (Heb 12:1, 1Tim 2:11, Mt 4:4). If the pastor-teacher of the local church, that she has been called to serve, gives her permission or an invitation to freely speak, then she has the liberty to teach what God gives her, but she does so under the government of that local body of believers and is covered by her pastor-teacher. If she teaches something that needs to be corrected the pastor-teacher is available to do that, so the body can be edified and built up in the truth.
In the chat room recently you defended your position against another, who is a regular chat room attendant, and became indignant toward them with cause. Personally, I agree with you. It would have been better to let another defend you in that case (Ps 94:22, Prov 27:2), even when others did not side with you. You could have made a brief statement and emailed the administrator or a moderator with your concern because your concern was legitimate and valid. They would have dealt with that, as they always do, with meekness and wisdom and you would have saved on your emotions. I know that you are very zealous of the Lord and His word and that is much more than just a good thing. As a brother in Christ I would encourage you to remain faithful to that and not waiver in any of your convictions that you have from God. I hope that you will always receive God's grace in every thing that you do in your walk of faith and reliance upon Him.
BTW - I also loved the way that you studied and presented the subject of faith categorically as a doctrine with good understanding.
C
We're spinning wheels, it seems.
Ok, once more, the first verse:
1 Timothy 2:12 - But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Please pay very close attention to this verse. I'll use different words, meaning the same thing, so it'll be easier to read.
1 Timothy 2:12 (paraphrasing) - But I DO NOT ALLOW a woman to teach, (keyword coming up) NOR allow them to take authority over the man, but to be in silence.
See that "NOR"? That means a separate thing that he does not allow. He doesn't allow teaching, nor the taking over of authority. He has them remain silent. Where does it say "besides when the authority (pastor) allows it"?
And the second verse:
1 Corinthians 14:34 - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
If it is a shame for women to speak in church, where does the "besides when the authority (pastor) allows it" part come in? If it is not permitted, where does it say "it's alright if an authority figure (pastor) says it's alright"?
I would like to bring you back to Genesis now, to oil the gears a bit. Please bear with me, I know this will be a long post, and I know patience wears thin on message boards, but this is worth the read.
Genesis 3:1 - Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
Now, I am not pointing this out to back up 1 Timothy 2:14 (And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.), but to show you why we are having this discussion.
The devil, in his slithering form, deceived Eve by playing to her pride.
By telling her she was below God, and he didn't want her to eat of the fruit because she would be like God, the devil made her feel a great injustice. She believed what the devil was saying: that God Himself was deceiving her, because he wanted to be the only God and not share the power with her (and her husband).
The devil will try to convince us of loopholes and technicalities of the Bible, and unfortunately, like our original mother and father, we will fall for them from time to time. We try to convince ourselves that we are above that because we know better now, but we're not. Unless we bury our heads in that Bible and take it for exactly what it means, and not try to inject what we feel are "MODERN SOCIAL NORMS", we will continue to fall just as they did. A pastor is not above this.
Now, I am not claiming to be smarter or more biblically educated than your pastor, but unfortunately, as far as I can see, he is missing the mark. If you will be offended, all I can do is point you back to Galatians 1:10. Until you can BIBLICALLY (not with "it's accepted in modern times") prove to me where I am wrong, I stand my ground.
I am only saying what I am reading from the Bible and will not apologize for that. If you prove otherwise, I will apologize fully and as publically as possible. If not, please be patient with me. I am assuming we are both children of God, and as such, I love you and feel no hard feelings whatsoever, and expect no less from you, my sister in Christ.
Ok, once more, the first verse:
1 Timothy 2:12 - But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Please pay very close attention to this verse. I'll use different words, meaning the same thing, so it'll be easier to read.
1 Timothy 2:12 (paraphrasing) - But I DO NOT ALLOW a woman to teach, (keyword coming up) NOR allow them to take authority over the man, but to be in silence.
See that "NOR"? That means a separate thing that he does not allow. He doesn't allow teaching, nor the taking over of authority. He has them remain silent. Where does it say "besides when the authority (pastor) allows it"?
And the second verse:
1 Corinthians 14:34 - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
If it is a shame for women to speak in church, where does the "besides when the authority (pastor) allows it" part come in? If it is not permitted, where does it say "it's alright if an authority figure (pastor) says it's alright"?
I would like to bring you back to Genesis now, to oil the gears a bit. Please bear with me, I know this will be a long post, and I know patience wears thin on message boards, but this is worth the read.
Genesis 3:1 - Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
Now, I am not pointing this out to back up 1 Timothy 2:14 (And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.), but to show you why we are having this discussion.
The devil, in his slithering form, deceived Eve by playing to her pride.
By telling her she was below God, and he didn't want her to eat of the fruit because she would be like God, the devil made her feel a great injustice. She believed what the devil was saying: that God Himself was deceiving her, because he wanted to be the only God and not share the power with her (and her husband).
The devil will try to convince us of loopholes and technicalities of the Bible, and unfortunately, like our original mother and father, we will fall for them from time to time. We try to convince ourselves that we are above that because we know better now, but we're not. Unless we bury our heads in that Bible and take it for exactly what it means, and not try to inject what we feel are "MODERN SOCIAL NORMS", we will continue to fall just as they did. A pastor is not above this.
Now, I am not claiming to be smarter or more biblically educated than your pastor, but unfortunately, as far as I can see, he is missing the mark. If you will be offended, all I can do is point you back to Galatians 1:10. Until you can BIBLICALLY (not with "it's accepted in modern times") prove to me where I am wrong, I stand my ground.
I am only saying what I am reading from the Bible and will not apologize for that. If you prove otherwise, I will apologize fully and as publically as possible. If not, please be patient with me. I am assuming we are both children of God, and as such, I love you and feel no hard feelings whatsoever, and expect no less from you, my sister in Christ.
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C
I was in agreement with you until you said "If the pastor-teacher of the local church, that she has been called to serve, gives her permission..."
I don't see where you're getting that in the scripture.
Once more, with my friend Sarah's choice translation (The New Living Translation):
1 Corinthians 14:34 - Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says. 35 If they have any questions, they should ask their husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in church meetings.
For sisterren11492: I believe this translation would clarify things. In the verse, "church" is the gathering of the congregation for their fellowship, as we do nowadays in our church buildings.
If it was to be read how you are reading it, women would, unfortunately, have to remain silent as a mute in order to follow this particular mandate from the Bible.
I don't see where you're getting that in the scripture.
Once more, with my friend Sarah's choice translation (The New Living Translation):
1 Corinthians 14:34 - Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says. 35 If they have any questions, they should ask their husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in church meetings.
For sisterren11492: I believe this translation would clarify things. In the verse, "church" is the gathering of the congregation for their fellowship, as we do nowadays in our church buildings.
If it was to be read how you are reading it, women would, unfortunately, have to remain silent as a mute in order to follow this particular mandate from the Bible.
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Pro 31:1 The words of king Lemuel, the prophecy that his mother taught him.
Luk 2:36 ¶ And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; Luk 2:37 And she [was] a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served [God] with fastings and prayers night and day. Luk 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
It does say clearly that she spake of HIM to all them that look for redemption in Jerusalem.
Luk 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
And we know clearly the HIM is Jesus cause of the verses before. Amen!
Luk 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
And we know clearly the HIM is Jesus cause of the verses before. Amen!
C
Doesn't mean she did it while church service was happening, because that would've been disruptive. Would it be considered teaching? Well... yes, I suppose it would. However, that new law of women speaking in church was not in effect yet. The church at Corinth wasn't even established yet, I don't believe.
She wasn't rebuked, I understand that, because there was no precedent for unruly women in the Christian church at that time, and no one to give that law at that time (because Jesus was still alive; that particular law wasn't even given until Jesus had died).
She wasn't rebuked, I understand that, because there was no precedent for unruly women in the Christian church at that time, and no one to give that law at that time (because Jesus was still alive; that particular law wasn't even given until Jesus had died).
Those are beautiful illustrations of a mother and a true widow.
Prov 1:8 'My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother'.
Prov 6:20 'My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother'.
1Tim 5:5,9,10 'Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day. Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man. Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work'.
This was a true widow that prayed and fasted night and day. Why wouldn't God bring to her in the temple those that were looking for redemption. She never left the temple so God brought them to her. She was a godly woman that God raised up as a prophetess and used her for His own sake in the temple. I see nothing exceptional but a loving God that honored the faithfulness of a woman that He had called to the temple. She probably lead many to Christ in her old age.
I don't know why some women who call themselves Christians can't accept the authority of scripture on this issue and realise they aren't supposed to be preaching/teaching in a position of authority over adult men.
P.S. Note that in the ancient world post-menopausal women had more freedoms since they were no longer unclean and were valued for their wisdom, and so you'll find most of these women mentioned in positions of authority in the bible were quite old, such as Anna. And so it is possible for there to be women as elders in the church but these are old women.
P.S. Note that in the ancient world post-menopausal women had more freedoms since they were no longer unclean and were valued for their wisdom, and so you'll find most of these women mentioned in positions of authority in the bible were quite old, such as Anna. And so it is possible for there to be women as elders in the church but these are old women.
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