Will The AntiChrist Control The Whole World?

texian · Mar 29, 2012

The traditional church view of the four kingdoms of Daniel 7 is that they are the Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman empires, the exact same empires as in Daniel 2.

Is there a reason why dispensationalism would want to stick to this traditional view of Daniel 7?

Dispensationalism has taught that almost all end time Bible prophecy will be fulfilled after the dispensationalist church is raptured off the earth, that there is to be a one man super world ruler anti-Christ, the temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem and this theology has in the past insisted on a Revived Roman Empire, probably involving the European Union nations.

A more recent interpretation of Daniel 7 is that the four kingdoms are those of England, Russia, Nazi Germany and a fourth one which is said to be dreadful, terrible and diverse from the other three. This fourth empire in more recent interpretations is said to be America or the United Nations.

The latter part of Daniel 7 goes into events of the very end time, for example, in verse 22, the Ancient of Days is said to come and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High. The implication is that the last of these four empires will exist on earth at that time.

The angel who gave Daniel the prophecies of Chapters 11 and 12 says in Daniel 12: 4 for him to "...shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end..."

This can apply also to the prophecies of Daniel 7, and we are closer to the time of the end now.

I found five Internet web sites which present this more recent view of the four kingdoms of Daniel 7, as The British Empire, the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and that fourth terrible beast which was diverse from the other three. There may be more than these five. If anyone wants to see these sites he will have to highlight, copy and paste the links into his browser:

fourth_beast

End Time

Beast in Revelation and Daniel - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy

Ken Raggio teaches the Four Beasts Of Daniel 7

by Jason Guenther

peterT · Mar 29, 2012

doulos said:

You haven’t even tried to back up your doctrine, that there is not antichrist/king in the end, and that the beast of Rv13 is Islam.

All you have said is the beasts are known as kingdoms.

You attack other people’s doctrines but don’t show yours.

Yes, the beasts are known as kingdoms, but they are also known as kings.

Daniel 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings, [which] shall arise out of the earth.

You asked me to show an antichrist/king in the end and I did in post #54. A king that stands up in the latter days that made war with the saints, that makes him a antichrist and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Here is some more on that king the antichrist in the latter days.

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

doulos · Mar 30, 2012

peterT said:

That is because I am not interested in sophomoric debates, after all the burden of proof is on you because you are the one who claims Scripture states there is a king known as the antichrist in the end. Just throwing Bible verses out there, does not prove that your interpretation of those verses, or the time you assume those things will happen, is correct. On the other hand if you would actually have taken the time to read and understand the posts I have made you would see that I explained it is far to involved to explain it in a single post. But I have given ample reason for people to give it serious consideration.. It isn’t my place to take anybody and lead them step by step through the bible explaining prophecy.(although I will if one is truly interested and willing to hear what Scripture says and we can prove from history) Scripture tells us:
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
It does not tell us to expect someone to spoon feed us as if we were infants.
Those who diligently search for the truth will glean the truth of my posts and take the time to search out the truth. If you are comfortable ignoring the fact that John told us exactly who/what the antichrist that shall come was when he said “this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world, then so be it, believe what you want.

doulos · Mar 30, 2012

texian said:

While I don’t agree with the commonly held views the dispensationals hold on eschatology, the fact that the kingdoms described in Daniel 2 and Daniel7 are the same kingdoms is correct. We all know that Daniel 12:4 and Daniel 12:9 tells us that the book is sealed until the time of the end. That does not mean that it could not be partially understood before then. The mistake was made when many thought they had a full understanding of the book before the time of the end began. From our vantage point on the historical timeline we can see that the Jews have been restored to their land in 1948. We can also see that God gave Jerusalem back to the Jews in 1967 ending the trodding over by the Gentiles. With that the time of the Gentiles was fulfilled and the time of the end began.

Sadly these views are based on faulty exegeis that ignore the sound principles of hermeneutics required to gain a correct interpretation of the figurative language describing real (literal) events that literally do occur in the real world. Once again may I suggest you gain an understanding of the bifidic nature of Daniel. Again I can’t stress the importance of understanding bifids and chiasms enough. A quick google search on bifids and chiasms will render some excellent articles and youtube videos on the subject.

Interesting theory but sadly as I will explain farther along in this post it is built on a faulty premise that only results in faulty exegesis.

Which is why any understanding of Daniel prior to the time of the end can at best be only partially correct and in many cases is totally in error. The dispensational view is partially correct, it’s view that the kingdoms of Daniel2 and Daniel7 are the same kingdoms is correct but lacking in othere areas. Once one understands the bifidic nature of Daniel that is easily understood. Once again may I suggest you do a google search on bifids and chiasms. There are some excellent websites and youtube videos on the first page of that search that do a good job explaining how bifids and chiasms work and how understanding them can help with proper interpretation.

It’s not the number of websites that make a view correct but whether that view was arrived at by following sound hermeneutic principles.I looked at Raggio’s teaching. Let’s have a look, he says:
“These great beasts, which are four, are FOUR KINGS, which shall arise out of the earth. But the SAINTS of the MOST HIGH shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever."

This is a VERY IMPORTANT FACT!

The event referred to in that verse is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints to the Battle of Armageddon, where He will finally conquer all kings and kingdoms and set up HIS KINGDOM for 1000 years on earth - the "Millennial Kingdom of Christ," as some call it.”[/quote]

Actually the event referred to in that verse is the first advent of Christ not the second coming. Sadly many do not understand that Christ’s reign actually started in the first century. Was John wrong when he said he was in the kingdom and patience of Christ? (Rev1:9) Or are the ones in error, the ones that believe Christ’s kingdom is still future, in error?

1Cor15 tells us that Christ must reign until he place all His enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:24-25 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The word translated thousand is chilioi a plural of uncertain affinity that can literally mean thousands. Sadly many have built a definite doctrine on an indefinite plural.
So if Christ started reigning in the first century and He reigns until he has placed all enemies underfoot and then delivers the kingdom to his father when does that happen? It happens at the last/7th trump of Rev. when time is no longer and the mystery of God is finished Christ will deliver the kingdom up to the Father.
Rev 10:6-7 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

peterT · Mar 30, 2012

Minich said:

He deceives the whole world, so He doesn’t have to conquer every nation, all he has to do is conquer the nations that oppose him, and he has help. And they agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, and have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Rv13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Rv17: 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

And when it says, he has power over ALL nations, It means He has power over ALL nations not some.

Rv13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And when it says he causeth ALL to receive a mark, It means He causeth ALL to receive it, not some. But obviously he has to catch you first.

Rv13:15 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

peterT · Mar 30, 2012

doulos said:

I have shown you a king that rises in the end that makes war with the saints, and that makes him antichrist.

What more do you won’t?

Now the burden of proof is on you because you are the one who claims Scripture states there is no antichrist in the end and that the beast from Rv13 is Islam. Don’t be shy show us from the Bible.

At least I have verses showing there is a king in the end, that makes war with the saints and that makes hi antichrist.
Unlike you who doesn’t have any verses to show anything for your doctrine.

It shows the deferens between the lie and the truth, and between delusion and the spirit of God.

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Laodicea · Mar 30, 2012

peterT said:

You are incorrect if you are applying those verses in Daniel 8 to the future, look at more info in Daniel 8
Daniel 8:20-22
(20) The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
(21) And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
(22) Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Media- Persia and Greece has already been fulfilled. The first king of Greece was Alexander the Great and when he died his kingdom was divided into 4 parts
Daniel 11:2-4
(2) And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
(3) And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.
(4) And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

Now with these facts in mind let us look at verse 23
Daniel 8:23
(23) And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Their kingdom is referring to Greece being divided into 4 parts then the rest verses you quoted explain the next kingdom. So which kingdom came up after Grecce?

peterT · Mar 30, 2012

Laodicea said:

You are incorrect if you are applying those verses in Daniel 8 to the future, look at more info in Daniel 8
Daniel 8:20-22
(20) The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
(21) And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
(22) Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Media- Persia and Greece has already been fulfilled. The first king of Greece was Alexander the Great and when he died his kingdom was divided into 4 parts
Daniel 11:2-4
(2) And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
(3) And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.
(4) And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

Now with these facts in mind let us look at verse 23
Daniel 8:23
(23) And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Their kingdom is referring to Greece being divided into 4 parts then the rest verses you quoted explain the next kingdom. So which kingdom came up after Grecce?

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end [shall be] the vision.

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be].

Sorry it is not fulfilled yet for the vision is for the time of the end.

Laodicea · Mar 30, 2012

peterT said:

Do you even know how to read Daniel 8? It is in 2 parts, the first part is the vision the 2nd part explains the vision, also Daniel 9 is a part of Daniel 8. It is from the time of Daniel.

peterT · Mar 30, 2012

Laodicea said:

Do you even no how to read Daniel8 that’s the question.

You are always trying to make Bible prophecy history.

Prophesy is all about Jesus’s coming and Jesus’s second coming and all the things related to that, it's his story, not Alexander the Greats.

Johnxxxx · Mar 30, 2012

whoever owns easybid.com

doulos · Mar 30, 2012

peterT said:

All you have done is shown us a bunch of verses you interpret that way. That is far from conclusive proof.

How about something that is based on a Scripturally sound hermeneutic study of the Scriptures, instead of guess work theology and sophomoric arguments from some one who doesn't even know the difference between want and won't.

I’ve already shown you that John told us the antichrist from 1John2:18 is not future but a spirit that was already in the world when he wrote the verses. Apparently you have chosen not to believe John, your choice, your problem. As we can all see you are so intent on proving your view correct you don’t take the time to read and understand what others write and instead just jump out there with sophomoric comments. I’ll not waste time trying to prove anything to someone that refuses to believe what John told us. One that denies the truth of John’s words can’t even be spoon fed the truth. You keep looking for your boogieman and I’ll keep looking for Christ to return.

Your continued resistance and argumentative attitude is monotonous and mind numbing, so unless you have something beneficial to add to the discussion I believe it’s time to move on. Happy hunting and God bless!

Laodicea · Mar 30, 2012

peterT said:

Not all prophecy is about the 2nd coming. You are a futurist always trying to put prophecy into the future. Daniel 8 cannot be any clearer about the Ram and Goat
Daniel 8:20-22
(20) The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
(21) And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
(22) Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

peterT · Mar 30, 2012

doulos said:

At least I have verses showing there is a king an antichrist in the last days.

But what do you have “ZIP” “NOTHING” “0” not one verse, not one single verse , showing that there is no antichrist/ king in the end, and not one single verse showing that Islam is the beast from Rv13.

And John never said there is on antichrist king in the end

And yet you are trying to pass it of as doctrine

How stupid do you think we are?

1John2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Laodicea · Mar 30, 2012

peterT said:

At least I have verses showing there is a king an antichrist in the last days.

But what do you have “ZIP” “NOTHING” “0” not one verse, not one single verse , showing that there is no antichrist/ king in the end, and not one single verse showing that Islam is the beast from Rv13.

And John never said there is on antichrist king in the end

And yet you are trying to pass it of as doctrine

How stupid do you think we are?

There is no need for name calling just because someone disagrees with you

peterT · Mar 30, 2012

Laodicea said:

You are over dramatizing I never called anyone names

Your just upset because I said for at the time of the end [shall be] the vision.

Laodicea · Mar 30, 2012

peterT said:

I am not upset over anything for I showed you that the meaning of the Ram and Goat, that they are Medo- Persia and Greece

Not all prophecy is about the 2nd coming. You are a futurist always trying to put prophecy into the future. Daniel 8 cannot be any clearer about the Ram and Goat
Daniel 8:20-22
(20) The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
(21) And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
(22) Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

I have seen many of your posts so I know what you are like in responding

peterT · Mar 30, 2012

Laodicea said:

What’s the matter with you Laodicea, attacking me and accusing me of name calling, just because I think your interpretation of Daniel8 has nothing to do with Alexander the Great.

I already know you know there is an antichrist in the last days, and the beast from Rv13 is not Islam.

You need to get your priorities in order Laodicea, and attack doctrine that is dangerous not me because I disagreed with your interpretation of Daniel8

Laodicea · Mar 30, 2012

peterT said:

There is an antichrist in the last days, Rev 13 is not Islam. The antichrist began working in the days of the apostles.

Now answer me a question, who is the Ram and Goat in Daniel 8?

1Christianwarrior316 · Mar 30, 2012

peterT said:

John told us what antichrist is because of the confusion and false doctrine that had already entered the church concerning antichrist.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
This definition of what antichrist is, is very clear and was given unto us to know exactly what antichrist is.
Any person, doctrine, system of religion, that is opposed to Jesus Christ and the spread of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, is antichrist.
Not some endtime imaginary boogieman that man's doctrine has led many to believe.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

Will The AntiChrist Control The Whole World?

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