Will the true Christians please stand up?

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mikeuk

Guest
#21
In my opinion, the various doctrines aren't all that important. What is important is Christ, repentance/turning from sin, being born again and your relationship with God. All the rest is just condiments lol. Some choose mustard, some ketchup, some pickles or onions etc... But at the end of the day, as long as we all eat a hamburger whats the problem?

Even within the dreaded RCC (lol), there are brothers and sisters who know and love God, as hard as that may be to believe. I'm not defending every post or intention from everyone on this site, but there is nothing wrong with talking about the Bible from different perspectives. Denominations mean little, to nothing to me. It honestly doesn't matter if you speak in tongues or not. It's all about how you live the faith. I give all church buildings with pews and a priest/pastor a big thumbs down, but even that is not the end of the world.
I do not want this to become doctrinal, and I quote one example only to question the flavours of sauce analogy, on some issues fence sitting cannot work! If our lord really is present in the Eucharist, then treating it as a symbol is profaning our lord in a terrible way, rejecting his gift of himself. If our lord is not present and only a symbol, then treating a piece of bread with reverence as our lord is idolatry, heresy and worse! You cannot sit on the fence and keep integrity. Take another - abortion is premeditated murder or it is not.

So many of these doctrinal issues matter, but I leave none the wiser as to what a true Christian as defined by this forum is supposed to believe!
 
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breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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#22
That side steps the question really. So are you non denominational? Does that lack of identity allow you to mix and match between flavours of doctrine? How so if there is but one unique truth? Does it not concern you that there are so many variants of which most cannot be true? Or do you not care what others here believe?
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to side step, I asked the same question in another thread a few days ago without answer and saw opportunity to ask it again here. I guess you'd say I'm non denominational/pentecostal, I don't take much notice of labels, you know a man by their fruit whether your a catholic, Baptist, whatever. My identity is in Christ, my mind is being renewed to that truth day by day and not in a denominational label.
I do care what others believe but I'm not much of a debater or contender, weakeness or its who I am? I don't know? But I spent years worrying a freting about what I'm not or what I should be but I've come to a place where I'm learning to rest in God and let Him do His work in me as I yield.
 
May 6, 2014
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#23
Unfortunately this all comes from a lack of knowledge of and relationship with the Holy Spirit. As was mentioned, the Holy Spirit is the dividing line between faith and religion.
2 Corinthians 5:5-7
Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7For we live by faith, not by sight.

Those who have the Holy Spirit are given understanding in all things, including scripture. They believe the understanding they have to be true because of their faith, and therefore do not debate about it but simply speak the message God gives them and go on their way. It is not through self study that they receive understanding but through a seeking after and belief of the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 11:25-26
At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

So who are the little children? Those who have childlike faith, and walk with the Lord and put trust in him because of their complete belief in who He is, for these are His children who know Him. Those who strive to live and learn by their own understanding and not by revelation from the Holy Spirit are those who have religious spirits and will debate and corrupt scripture to fit their own ends and beliefs. Scripture was already perfect and did not need to be tampered with by men, yet that is exactly what happened, which is why there are so many different denominations and versions of the bible.

2 Timothy 3
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. [SUP]2 [/SUP]People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, [SUP]3 [/SUP]without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, [SUP]4 [/SUP]treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— [SUP]5 [/SUP]having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. [SUP]6 [/SUP]They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, [SUP]7 [/SUP]always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

[h=3]A Final Charge to Timothy[/h][SUP]10 [/SUP]You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, [SUP]11 [/SUP]persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, [SUP]13 [/SUP]while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, [SUP]15 [/SUP]and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [SUP]16 [/SUP]All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, [SUP]17 [/SUP]so that the servant of God[SUP][a][/SUP] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

It very clearly explains in this passage of those who will combat, debate, and fight the scripture, twist it to suit their own ends. Notice that it says scripture will make you wise for salvation THROUGH FAITH, not that it is necessary for salvation, but should make you wise for it. Scriptures are for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness to prepare God's servants for His work. Nowhere does it say they are for debate, mockery, to make others feel less for having less knowledge of them, etc. It is better to know the Word of God than to know the scriptures. I'm sure that confused you a bit. What is the Word of God? Rather than what we should be asking who? That is Jesus Christ. I'm sure the following scripture should make clear to you the question of salvation as well.

John 1:1-18
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[SUP]a[/SUP] it.

6There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
9The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15(John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”) 16Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[SUP]b[/SUP] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

This passage is speaking of Jesus. The Word became flesh, the Word was God and was with God. If you are familiar with the trinity you would realize why it is that the Word can both be God and with God. Jesus is the Word, He is the way, the truth, and the life. It says "to those who believed in His name"-that means that to receive salvation you simply must receive Jesus and believe that He is the Word of God, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Redeemer of all sin. That is salvation.
Let's turn for a moment back to Timothy.

2 Timothy 4:1-5
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: [SUP]2 [/SUP]Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. [SUP]4 [/SUP]They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

This clearly explains why there is so much debate, so many different doctrines and religions. They twist the truth to suit their own ends. I believe this verse needs no explanation.

Some question, due to both my gender and age, what authority I have to speak on the things of God. The only authority I have is that given by the One who sent me. I am His messenger, and I do not claim these words or understandings as my own but they are God's alone. I am qualified to speak not through religious education or bible college, but through my belief in Jesus and therefore equality in Him.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
 
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mikeuk

Guest
#24
If we take time reading the books of the Bible, we wouldn't have to ask questions and get cherry picked results, confusion should be expected if we are not willing to search it out ourselves with the guidance of the Holy Spirit..
I appreciate some of your sentiments, indeed liked your last post. But this last part is not only a problem but in many ways is
" the problem"

Everyone who expresses their opinion from Calvin on , will claim they both read the bible and asked for guidance from the Spirit, yet they all come to different opinions. Since the Spirit will have but one opinion, the truth, then most who claim they were guided by spirit are therefore wrong, because they have several mutually exclusive interpretations.

There is also the biblical problem , for example proverbs 3-5 that urge against private attempts at understanding,
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not depend on your own understanding.
But if not private then what? 1 Timothy 3-15 perhaps - " pillar and foundation of truth is the church"
So your statement. seems to beg more questions than it answers!
 
Feb 5, 2015
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#25
I appreciate some of your sentiments, indeed liked your last post. But this last part is not only a problem but in many ways is
" the problem"

Everyone who expresses their opinion from Calvin on , will claim they both read the bible and asked for guidance from the Spirit, yet they all come to different opinions. Since the Spirit will have but one opinion, the truth, then most who claim they were guided by spirit are therefore wrong, because they have several mutually exclusive interpretations.

There is also the biblical problem , for example proverbs 3-5 that urge against private attempts at understanding,
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not depend on your own understanding.
But if not private then what? 1 Timothy 3-15 perhaps - " pillar and foundation of truth is the church"
So your statement. seems to beg more questions than it answers!
Paul spoke of ''disputable matters'' in Romans ch14. Is it realistic to expect all Christians to agree on everything? They didn't in biblical times obviously
 
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mikeuk

Guest
#26
Unfortunately this all comes from a lack of knowledge of and relationship with the Holy Spirit.
......
They twist the truth to suit their own ends.
And thereby hangs the problem " they" all claim the same, that they discerned the spirit, and came to different interpretations, that all who disagree " twist the truth". But the Spirit can have but one opinion, which is the truth, so most who say they were guided are wrong.

I don't doubt the sincerity of what you believe, and age and gender are irrelevant to truth, but the problem remains of so many mutually exclusive views, will the true Christians please stand up!
 
Feb 5, 2015
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#27
And thereby hangs the problem " they" all claim the same, that they discerned the spirit, and came to different interpretations, that all who disagree " twist the truth". But the Spirit can have but one opinion, which is the truth, so most who say they were guided are wrong.

I don't doubt the sincerity of what you believe, and age and gender are irrelevant to truth, but the problem remains of so many mutually exclusive views, will the true Christians please stand up!
Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him John 7:18

Would the above suggest someone who in their heart want/'seeks glory for God, not themselves, and if that is the case, they know the truth that matters to God-they are considered a person of truth
 
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mikeuk

Guest
#28
Paul spoke of ''disputable matters'' in Romans ch14. Is it realistic to expect all Christians to agree on everything? They didn't in biblical times obviously
True. But as I pointed out, there can but be one truth, our lord is really present in Eucharist or he is not, abortion is premeditated murder or it is not. These are of rather graver consequence than circumcision or not!
 
Sep 30, 2014
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#29
I appreciate some of your sentiments, indeed liked your last post. But this last part is not only a problem but in many ways is
" the problem"

Everyone who expresses their opinion from Calvin on , will claim they both read the bible and asked for guidance from the Spirit, yet they all come to different opinions. Since the Spirit will have but one opinion, the truth, then most who claim they were guided by spirit are therefore wrong, because they have several mutually exclusive interpretations.

There is also the biblical problem , for example proverbs 3-5 that urge against private attempts at understanding,
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not depend on your own understanding.
But if not private then what? 1 Timothy 3-15 perhaps - " pillar and foundation of truth is the church"
So your statement. seems to beg more questions than it answers!
Correct, that's where confusion sets in, with spiritual talk.. That's why we should test the Spirit of the speaker or " speakers ", if we find something that doesn't correlate with Gods word, confront them in private, if they keep on bring it to the table. I've had some try to lead me to gematria and all right here on this very site, if we're not careful, we will fall for this nonsense, usually Gods word is repetitive, and will make known the way we should live by the Spirit,

my advice would be just to keep your eyes on Jesus as a wiseman once told me. If we keep our eyes on His words and parables, we can't go wrong, Jesus is simplistic, He's not in to confusion or debate, that's people, and some have there own agendas, we never know... If something doesn't sit well with you, don't lean on your own understanding or others understanding, pray, ask Him to reveal the truth to you, and claim that He will, this has always worked for me, maybe not on my time, but it gets answered, some don't ... and I patiently wait, pray and search..but always standing on Gods word.
 
Feb 5, 2015
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#30
True. But as I pointed out, there can but be one truth, our lord is really present in Eucharist or he is not, abortion is premeditated murder or it is not. These are of rather graver consequence than circumcision or not!
I suppose a protestant could respond.

What is greater truth than knowing a Christian is not under law but under grace? therefore should not all ministers/priests state from, the pulpit Christ died for all your sins past, present and future. The Christian is perfect forever in God's sight even while they are BEING made Holy. Should it be stated Heaven hinges on obedience to the Ten Commandments or faith in Christ?
Then I could quote rom 4:14-15 to prove if you depend on obedience to the law faith can mean nothing to you therefore you are cut off from grace for grace comes through faith.

But please, I only use that as an example, not to be contentious
 
Feb 5, 2015
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#31
The two mainstream if you like Christian denominations who are furthest apart doctrinally are Roman catholic and Pentecostal. And yet, a lady once said to me, they are the two denominations that find it hardest to accept the grace of the bible. That made me think hard
 
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mikeuk

Guest
#32
The two mainstream if you like Christian denominations who are furthest apart doctrinally are Roman catholic and Pentecostal. And yet, a lady once said to me, they are the two denominations that find it hardest to accept the grace of the bible. That made me think hard
My question is did that lady understand either sufficiently well to conclude such of either? I cannot speak for Pentecostal, I can say that few I see comment on RCC appear to understand it at all. For example, If you like love stories, read some of the autobiographies of catholic saints, who radiate love and thirst for Jesus as much as any evangelical professes to do, but sadly few outside RCC have even heard their names.
 
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mikeuk

Guest
#33
And with that it is farewell to you all, we should unite in Christ rather than air so many differences.

I leave with the remark I made part way down the thread:

That a new or tentative Christian coming here asking " what should I believe" would leave more confused than when they came, wondering how ( some) people seemingly dedicated to a vocation of love could be so nasty to each other.

It is not a good thing - I wish you all well.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#34
A useful post. I don't want this thread to debate doctrine, rather the large variation in opinions of it. But of all the doctrinal differences, I can say predestination seems the least sensible to me, because what is the point in evangelisation, spreading the word, or converting, if all are going where they go regardless?

But back to the topic, if a would be Christian came to this forum wondering" what should I believe?" - they would leave none the wiser, but more confused. And that is a problem.
If someone came here to find salvation.........that was their first mistake. Trusting in man for one's salvation will never work. They should be going to Jesus, not man......there's a reason Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the light."
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#35
And thereby hangs the problem " they" all claim the same, that they discerned the spirit, and came to different interpretations, that all who disagree " twist the truth". But the Spirit can have but one opinion, which is the truth, so most who say they were guided are wrong.

I don't doubt the sincerity of what you believe, and age and gender are irrelevant to truth, but the problem remains of so many mutually exclusive views, will the true Christians please stand up!
What is odd to me is.........everything you have proposed of the Protestant churches ALSO applies to the Catholic church. Debate, dissention, unrest, all these are actively a part of the Catholic church today. Just saying........
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
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#36
Blond here standing strong.....I believe in Jesus and what He did for me. Dying on a cross to pay for my sins so that I could live. I accept His gift of salvation and I walk with Him daily. He holds my hand and lights the way. I believe in His faithfulness and that He loves me it all I need to believe as His grace is sufficient for me.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#37
True. But as I pointed out, there can but be one truth, our lord is really present in Eucharist or he is not, abortion is premeditated murder or it is not. These are of rather graver consequence than circumcision or not!
Perfect example...........is the Catholic church "of one accord" on this issue? No. So, apparently there is much to be resolved in the Catholic church as well?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#38
And with that it is farewell to you all, we should unite in Christ rather than air so many differences.

I leave with the remark I made part way down the thread:

That a new or tentative Christian coming here asking " what should I believe" would leave more confused than when they came, wondering how ( some) people seemingly dedicated to a vocation of love could be so nasty to each other.

It is not a good thing - I wish you all well.
I sincerely hope they have a "come to Jesus" moment, and not look for salvation among men. If this is what you did, then I can understand your feelings better. But to think that the Catholic church is perfect in every way is nothing but pie in the sky ideology. Just saying.

Final thought: The Church..........of which Jesus Christ is the Head.........has no other definition than those who are disciples of His...........His sheep........His flock..........those called to Him that accepted Him, believed in Him, and dedicated their lives to His service. That simple. Any one of the vast quantity of labels mankind has put on various groups will never be the "true church" in and of itself, because the Church was not established by man.

Anyway, I do wonder why you came here rather than joining a Catholic on line site? Seems to me, you would have been far happier had you done that.
 

Yeraza_Bats

Senior Member
Dec 11, 2014
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#39
I do not believe that your denomination title is in any way important to God. Humans love identification terms. Back in my sinful life I called myself a panromantic transgender asexual person. The world has so many freaking identification terms that its almost insane :p

A religion that follows Gods word is what matters. Obviously, you should not follow religions that claim the leader of it is God on earth, that Christ's earth mother is divine and should be prayed to, that the founder will be our judge, and was given the truth by an angel who gave him occult tools to do it in secret, or religions that /cleary/ change Gods word to fit their own agenda. There are false prophets out there, many of them claiming to be from Christ, /just/ like we were warned about.

Do not worry about the little difference of opinions here and there. Ask for Gods wisdom, and follow what the holy spirit does for you. I have noticed that like 80% of the arguing on this site merely come from a lack of understanding anywho. I once had an argument about coming to Christ and sinning that I eventually just left, because the guy I was arguing with kept thinking that I was claiming it was totally okay to sin while following Christ, when my point was that even in the bible man has sinned since coming to Christ, and that only by Gods grace we are saved, which is why we must avoid sin entirely with all our hearts. I do not believe they found themselves perfect, without one blemish, because the whole point of Christ's coming was to tell the world that they are evil and need to repent. I think they just refused to listen to my point :p

Dont worry about little disagreements between people, and follow God by the guidance of the holy spirit, and ALWAYS make sure to match any divine revelation with the bible, because our enemy does like to pretend to be angels of light.
 
Feb 9, 2015
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#40
Might be time to take a break, look at getting a non Christian perspective on Jesus.
I do believe that the church is drowning in doctrinal paperwork, full of religion but not a drop of Christianity.
Get your kabbalah on! or take a look at islam as they have plenty to say about Jesus.
It never hurts to have a fresh perspective to see what you can learn and take back with you.

Oh BTW..... Satan doesnt lie he just allows you to decieve yourself, after all hes getting his court case ready for Judgment Day and what better evidence would he have if you had to admit that you misinterpreted what he said?