Willful sin and the sin of ignorance

[InSpiritInTruth]

Nor can one fall out of a tree unless they first climbed into it...

Nor can a branch be removed from a Vine and burned unless it at one time was attached to the Vine.

John 15:1-6

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

 

[dcontroversal]

The ministry of condemnation is still alive within the church but God's grace and love is greater than that. The ministry of righteousness will prevail! Nothing can stop the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ from being preached in the world. Religion is the #1 enemy of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Absolutely, religion runs deep without understanding in more than a few in here!

 

[Grace777x70]

We have to keep 2 aspects in mind when interpreting scriptures on salvation.

Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.

Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness on this earth for very long.

Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based salvationists views.

I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."

There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.

The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.

Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.

The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.

We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.

Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.

If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".

There is eternal salvation and there is manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.

Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.

Everyone is free to believe what they want and we can agree to disagree as well. Let's rely on the Holy spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The ministry of condemnation is still alive within the church but God's grace and love is greater than that.

Your false grace doctrine says under grace wilful sin still has dominion over you. But the Truth shown in the gospel of Jesus Christ says under grace sin shall not have dominion over you.

Who are we to believe, your lies, or the Truth according to the words of God? I choose the Word and Spirit of Truth.

 

[Angela53510]

And God will be faithful to you in all things and I will pray for you in this area in which you are believing God for.

We all have things of the flesh that the Lord is transforming us in order to reflect His love to others and ourselves. None of us are exempt from the flesh in some form or other. There is no such thing as sinless perfection in the flesh.

Thank God for His grace. Thank God for His granting of us repentance. Thank God for revealing His Son to us. Without Him we can do nothing.

I still believe though that this is still wilfully doing it. No one made you do it - it is giving in to the flesh's desire and we do that by an act of our will. It's the same thing for all of us for whatever area we have. Sin is very deceptive and deceitful.

Do you believe you would have gone to heaven if you died after having an episode of an outburst of anger? Is it possible to have a work of the flesh that we have not been transformed yet by His grace? What happens if we die while this is still in effect in our lives?

For the record - I believe you would be in the loving arms of the Savior and your Father despite the struggle in the flesh. You were bought with the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ and you belong to Him - joined as one spirit.

Did I ever say anywhere, I did not believe I was saved because I sinned??

You assume way too much! So really, your opinion as to the state of my relationship with Christ does not matter. What matters is that God was working on me, and still is. He would not have called me to repent if he had been absent from my heart and life. And that is what worries me about this repentance-less gospel you are continually preaching! By not acknowledging that repentance and confession of sin is on-going till we see Jesus face to face, you have made the gospel impotent! You have told people over and over all they need to worry about is "grace." But part of grace is that God teaches us in his Word, and uses that as a tool to change us. And obedience is the greater part of repentance.

"And Samuel said, “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams." 1 Samuel 15:22

" We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, 6 being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete." 2 Cor. 10:5-6


Please stop lecturing me, and address the textual issues which concern me in your posts. That means, how you pull Scriptures out of context and misuse them. And misuse the Greek. I have repeatedly pointed out how and where you are doing this, and you never answer.

Hmm! I wonder if God is angry with you, because of the way you twist his words? I guess that would be me, assuming too much, too, wouldn't it?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Again, wilful sin is knowing before hand it is sin having been given the knowledge of sin, and the knowledge to do good, as God says do this and don't do that, but yet one wilfully rebels against what God said not to do.

James 4:17

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

The Spirit gives Life,not the flesh.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The Spirit gives Life,not the flesh.

Never said different, but also by the Spirit we are able to put to death the deeds of the flesh/body=put to death sin and stop sinning.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

So if one says they have been born again of the Spirit yet still continues in wilful sin, then you know for sure they are just blowing smoke.

 

[Grace777x70]

Did I ever say anywhere, I did not believe I was saved because I sinned??

You assume way too much! So really, your opinion as to the state of my relationship with Christ does not matter. What matters is that God was working on me, and still is. He would not have called me to repent if he had been absent from my heart and life. And that is what worries me about this repentance-less gospel you are continually preaching! By not acknowledging that repentance and confession of sin is on-going till we see Jesus face to face, you have made the gospel impotent! You have told people over and over all they need to worry about is "grace." But part of grace is that God teaches us in his Word, and uses that as a tool to change us. And obedience is the greater part of repentance.

"And Samuel said, “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams." 1 Samuel 15:22

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,6 being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete." 2 Cor. 10:5-6


Please stop lecturing me, and address the textual issues which concern me in your posts. That means, how you pull Scriptures out of context and misuse them. And misuse the Greek. I have repeatedly pointed out how and where you are doing this, and you never answer.

Hmm! I wonder if God is angry with you, because of the way you twist his words? I guess that would be me, assuming too much, too, wouldn't it?

Nonsense Angela...I have never said that people don't repent or confess sin. That's where you are distorting and mis-representing things again. That is a total lie. Please at the very least show some integrity and say what is really being said.

It is ok to agree to disagree in areas too but have the decency to speak what is really being said and not this bunch of lies that distorts the truth. Thank you.


You obviously missed the whole point of the conversation in this thread concerning the flesh and going to hell.

I asked you that question because I was trying to show that having a work of the flesh in our lives does not negate us from going to heaven. Your malice has affected your ability to see what is being said in context and thus you rant about other things not in this thread.

I am not taking scriptures out of context despite your attempt to malign what I say.

I never see where you are pointing out where I am mis-using the Greek. What I do see is your interpretation of some things and if it doesn't agree with what I am saying - then I am mis-using the greek according to you.

I'm not intimidated by people trying to lord it over people's faith by their condescending attitude towards others. I know you are sick and in pain so I am not taking you to task on this behavior. I know that you have made it your personal mission to shadow me by your own admission and to set me straight so that I can line up with your personal beliefs in some areas. Not going to happen...sorry.

 

[dcontroversal]

John must have been stupid or mistaken when he said clearly..IF WE SAY THAT WE HAVE NO SIN......WHAT part of
a. We x 2
b. Present tense of the statement
c. The inspiration of the H.S. to write this

DON'T YOU GET??

 

[gb9]

Never said different, but also by the Spirit we are able to put to death the deeds of the flesh/body=put to death sin and stop sinning.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

So if one says they have been born again of the Spirit yet still continues in wilful sin, then you know for sure they are just blowing smoke.

and what defines ' willful sin " ?? and how many " willful sins " earns loss of salvation? what types are worse than others. what if one does not realize right away they sinned?

see, you and others just throw this out there in a vague fashion and do not define it.

 

[HisHolly]

How is one conformed into the image of Christ if sin remains?

Present tense means it was current for them. Does not say if we ever say we have no sin.. huge difference!

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

"And Samuel said, “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams." 1 Samuel 15:22

I like this one below which speaks of wilful rebellion (sin) against the words of God.....

1 Samuel 15:23
"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king."

And we know what happened to Saul for this rebellion and rejecting the words of God, the Holy Spirit departed from him later on, and an evil spirit entered into him. Yikes!

 

[Grace777x70]

The Spirit gives Life,not the flesh.

Yep!

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.


Christ Himself makes us righteous in our new creation which has been created in righteousness and holiness. We are joined as one spirit with Him forever. Either believe it or don't. The choice is ours.

Hebrews 4:9-11 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

[SUP]11[/SUP] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

How is one conformed into the image of Christ if sin remains?

Present tense means it was current for them. Does not say if we ever say we have no sin.. huge difference!

That's right, you have to distinguish between past, present, and future. We are supposed to be past tense sinners, but present day saints.

 

[gb9]

Never said different, but also by the Spirit we are able to put to death the deeds of the flesh/body=put to death sin and stop sinning.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

So if one says they have been born again of the Spirit yet still continues in wilful sin, then you know for sure they are just blowing smoke.

see, I think you and others just throw this out there to try to shout down and intimindate people. but , this " difference in sin, big sin little sin" is man-made religion teachings. not to mention, you just pluck verses out of context to attempt to prove your non-points.

 

[Grace777x70]

No you have not. Please at least be honest with us and tell us what you believe. Why do you continuously skirt the question and just answer truthfully. I will ask it again.

So, let's try it this way - will that person that had outbursts of anger for 30 years and they died after one of these episodes - they would go to hell? Is that what you are saying - because that was my question.

Gluttony is sinning to - so if someone had a problem with over eating all the time - and they died - would they go to hell too? Because they are living after the flesh as well. What about someone with jealousy? Would they go to hell after having a bout of jealousy and they died?

Answer us truthfully...you are entitled to your own opinion too.

Inspirtintruth - Let's check out the Op's doctrine and take it for a test run in real life

...answer this question above which you have dodged about 7 times in the past - 3 times alone in this thread. Be honest with us and tell us what you believe and answer the question. Thank you.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Inspirtintruth - Let's check out the Op's doctrine and take it for a test run in real life

...answer this question above which you have dodged about 7 times in the past - 3 times alone in this thread. Be honest with us and tell us what you believe and answer the question. Thank you.

I answered already by the words of God in the past and also in post #16, but as usual you reject the words of God as the Truth. My doctrine is the Lords doctrine, take it or leave it.

 

[Angela53510]

No you have not. Please at least be honest with us and tell us what you believe. Why do you continuously skirt the question and just answer truthfully. I will ask it again.

So, let's try it this way - will that person that had outbursts of anger for 30 years and they died after one of these episodes - they would go to hell? Is that what you are saying - because that was my question.

Gluttony is sinning to - so if someone had a problem with over eating all the time - and they died - would they go to hell too? Because they are living after the flesh as well. What about someone with jealousy? Would they go to hell after having a bout of jealousy and they died?

Answer us truthfully...you are entitled to your own opinion too.

Bruce, as I answered you in another post, I was still saved during those 30 years of having a bad temper. No one says I was not!


But I would ask you to find another example! This is my testimony, not yours! And as usual, you are twisting it to your own devices.

Once more, God was speaking to me that entire time. He is the one who showed me that it was sin when he was ready. He was the one that convicted me, and helped set me free. My testimony is NOT that I lost my salvation, but rather that it was a sign of the Holy Spirit working in my life.

Get it??? The Holy Spirit working in my life! And eventually, giving me peace and self control, so I have not lost my temper in 6 years. You always seem to make it like it was yesterday I lost my temper and my salvation. Which is another total untruth. The first time, maybe you misunderstood, but now, it is an outright lie.

It really is despicable of you to turn my testimony against me, and use it as an example of someone who has lost their salvation, when in fact it was a sign of the grace of God moving in my life, and although a long journey, certainly in that case, a victory over sin.

If you use me as an example again, you will be reported.

Just another prime example of how slippery and evil your words are. And how you twist everything to further your heretical doctrine, which like Voldemort, cannot be named in the BDF!

 

[Angela53510]

Nonsense Angela...I have never said that people don't repent or confess sin. That's where you are distorting and mis-representing things again. That is a total lie. Please at the very least show some integrity and say what is really being said.

It is ok to agree to disagree in areas too but have the decency to speak what is really being said and not this bunch of lies that distorts the truth. Thank you.


You obviously missed the whole point of the conversation in this thread concerning the flesh and going to hell.

I asked you that question because I was trying to show that having a work of the flesh in our lives does not negate us from going to heaven. Your malice has affected your ability to see what is being said in context and thus you rant about other things not in this thread.

I am not taking scriptures out of context despite your attempt to malign what I say.

I never see where you are pointing out where I am mis-using the Greek. What I do see is your interpretation of some things and if it doesn't agree with what I am saying - then I am mis-using the greek according to you.

I'm not intimidated by people trying to lord it over people's faith by their condescending attitude towards others. I know you are sick and in pain so I am not taking you to task on this behavior. I know that you have made it your personal mission to shadow me by your own admission and to set me straight so that I can line up with your personal beliefs in some areas. Not going to happen...sorry.

The point being - you have twisted and used MY TESTIMONY! You have not answered a single scripture that I and others have posted. And in fact, you frequently accuse ISIT of not posting scripture correctly, when in fact, that is pretty much all he posts. If you don't agree with what he posts, on a context or interpretative basis - please correct him. I know he would be happy to engage in a real discussion of the truths of the Bible, instead of your copy and paste posts. (That really shocked me, too bad that thread is not around any more!)

I am sick to death of people who twist the Bible, and are not answerable, and keeping spreading lies. As for not repenting and confessing, I have heard you say that you "do not say I am against repentance." But I have seen nothing of you actually believing that repentance and confession of sins is a major part of the gospel. And including that in your too numerous to count posts.


Misusing Greek means - taking a Greek word and not understanding the use, the tense, the aspect, or the advanced grammar, because the only Greek you have studied comes off a few of the simplest internet sites. Using Greek means being true to the intent of the author, and with respect to scholars and what they have studied for thousands of years, and how we understand it. And not believing that somehow your bad use of Greek is being led by the Holy Spirit??

Ignorance of the correct way to use Greek is the most arrogant thing of all. Esp. when you use it to bolster your false points, and your lies.

And yes, if you continue to post things that are hermeneutically incorrect, by ripping them out of context, or misunderstanding the words in Greek, or the grammar, and I will continue to challenge you. You spent too long in this forum walking in your heresies, and I am going to post for those who do not know any better!

As for using my testimony of what God did in my life - cease and desist! Thanks in advance!

 

[Grace777x70]

Bruce, as I answered you in another post, I was still saved during those 30 years of having a bad temper. No one says I was not!


But I would ask you to find another example! This is my testimony, not yours! And as usual, you are twisting it to your own devices.

Once more, God was speaking to me that entire time. He is the one who showed me that it was sin when he was ready. He was the one that convicted me, and helped set me free. My testimony is NOT that I lost my salvation, but rather that it was a sign of the Holy Spirit working in my life.

Get it??? The Holy Spirit working in my life! And eventually, giving me peace and self control, so I have not lost my temper in 6 years. You always seem to make it like it was yesterday I lost my temper and my salvation. Which is another total untruth. The first time, maybe you misunderstood, but now, it is an outright lie.

It really is despicable of you to turn my testimony against me, and use it as an example of someone who has lost their salvation, when in fact it was a sign of the grace of God moving in my life, and although a long journey, certainly in that case, a victory over sin.

If you use me as an example again, you will be reported.

Just another prime example of how slippery and evil your words are. And how you twist everything to further your heretical doctrine, which like Voldemort, cannot be named in the BDF!

Angela.....again you are completely mis-reading what is happening here.

This is a general question to ISIT about doing things in the flesh and in his mind we go to hell because of them. That is why I am talking about anger, gluttony, jealousy, malice..etc. - these are all works of the flesh along with the sexual sins.

This whole thing was to show that people do not lose their salvation because of trying to overcome things in the flesh. - NOT that it was trying to show you have lost salvation...it was the complete opposite! Go back and read the whole post. This whole thing has nothing to do with you...they were examples of walking after the flesh which I said we all do. W

What is wrong with you? I realize you are sick and you said you are in pain but please try to read what is being said because you are way off in what you think you are seeing. It is NOT to do with you.