Willful sin and the sin of ignorance
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You have never answered once in a truthful clear way that a person could see your answer for what it really is.
So, let's try it this way - will that person that had outbursts of anger for 30 years and they died after one of these episodes - they would go to hell? Is that what you are saying - because that was my question.
Gluttony is sinning to - so if someone had a problem with over eating all the time - and they died - would they go to hell too? Because they are living after the flesh as well. What about someone with jealousy? Would they go to hell after having a bout of jealousy and they died?
Answer us truthfully...you are entitled to your own opinion too.
So, let's try it this way - will that person that had outbursts of anger for 30 years and they died after one of these episodes - they would go to hell? Is that what you are saying - because that was my question.
Gluttony is sinning to - so if someone had a problem with over eating all the time - and they died - would they go to hell too? Because they are living after the flesh as well. What about someone with jealousy? Would they go to hell after having a bout of jealousy and they died?
Answer us truthfully...you are entitled to your own opinion too.
Again, wilful sin is knowing before hand it is sin having been given the knowledge of sin, and the knowledge to do good, as God says do this and don't do that, but yet one wilfully rebels against what God said not to do.
James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
No you have not. Please at least be honest with us and tell us what you believe. Why do you continuously skirt the question and just answer truthfully. I will ask it again.
So, let's try it this way - will that person that had outbursts of anger for 30 years and they died after one of these episodes - they would go to hell? Is that what you are saying - because that was my question.
Gluttony is sinning to - so if someone had a problem with over eating all the time - and they died - would they go to hell too? Because they are living after the flesh as well. What about someone with jealousy? Would they go to hell after having a bout of jealousy and they died?
Answer us truthfully...you are entitled to your own opinion too.
So, let's try it this way - will that person that had outbursts of anger for 30 years and they died after one of these episodes - they would go to hell? Is that what you are saying - because that was my question.
Gluttony is sinning to - so if someone had a problem with over eating all the time - and they died - would they go to hell too? Because they are living after the flesh as well. What about someone with jealousy? Would they go to hell after having a bout of jealousy and they died?
Answer us truthfully...you are entitled to your own opinion too.
Yes, and many reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit concerning this departure from the faith....
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
I agree! Let's see what this "falling away " is in context.
1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.
verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith....this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others..is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.
This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort...
It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.
.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ. Works--based salvationists mindsets.
Yep..take up shooting heroin in your arms and you have "fallen away" from relying on the life of Christ inside you for life and living. We will be trying to get life from the heroin instead of Christ - that is falling away from the faith. Anything that takes us away from relying on Christ's finished work is "falling away from faith".
No one is disputing that aspect of it. Does that mean this person goes to hell? Does a person that has gluttony for a sin and doesn't know how to overcome it - do they go to hell when they die? They are living after the flesh.
What about those that have "outburst of anger"? These are works of the flesh just like sexual sinning. Or what about jealousy? If someone lives in jealousy and they die - do they go to hell now even after coming to Christ and believing in Him?
I am trying to get the OP to answer these questions too and have asked him a few times in the past because he says that people who live in the flesh will not go to heaven. But he consistently slips away from answering the question.
Don't you think these are important questions to answer?
reallyu good stuff isit.
a reflection on this in my mind is
Luke 12:47-48 "The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
and james 4:17 "If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them."
the More we understand Jesus, the More obedience comes through that Knowledge of Gods will. to Know that God whom we Love, wills that we repent and obey Him, tests Our faith, and every area of our heart. does moiney mean more to us than Gods will for our Lives? Does sexual immorality's pleasure mean more to us that Jesus who suffered saying rid ourselves of Lust and sexual immorality? the more we Know of Jesus and His teachings, the more the testing of Our faith comes. Will i share my possessions with the poor because God says to? will i truly Love others in response to accepting Jesus Love for Me? or will i simply tell everyoine thier already saved by the finished works and Jesus words dont really apply? even though the bible teaches clearly the opposite and refutes those things clearly, eventhough it sounds easier to just say Grace, God actually purposely left His word to Learn and Live all the way into eternity. and its full of warnings to the wise, and instructions to the willing. Knowledge of Gods word is spirit.
a reflection on this in my mind is
Luke 12:47-48 "The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
and james 4:17 "If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them."
the More we understand Jesus, the More obedience comes through that Knowledge of Gods will. to Know that God whom we Love, wills that we repent and obey Him, tests Our faith, and every area of our heart. does moiney mean more to us than Gods will for our Lives? Does sexual immorality's pleasure mean more to us that Jesus who suffered saying rid ourselves of Lust and sexual immorality? the more we Know of Jesus and His teachings, the more the testing of Our faith comes. Will i share my possessions with the poor because God says to? will i truly Love others in response to accepting Jesus Love for Me? or will i simply tell everyoine thier already saved by the finished works and Jesus words dont really apply? even though the bible teaches clearly the opposite and refutes those things clearly, eventhough it sounds easier to just say Grace, God actually purposely left His word to Learn and Live all the way into eternity. and its full of warnings to the wise, and instructions to the willing. Knowledge of Gods word is spirit.
I think part of the reason why some people think there is willful sin and accidental sin i guess you could call it. Is because people are told to ignore the rules of the OT because now a days pastors and preachers are teaching that as long as you love God and believe his Son died and shed his blood to save your sins that you are born again and that the blood of Jesus will continue t wash your sins away no matter as long as you repent. I think the teachings of the word of God are getting how shall I say misdirected this day in age. So answer yes if you lay with a an and your a man and want to be saved by God you would need to stop your homosexual acts forever and repent for your sins of homosexuality. But to sleep with a man in a sexual way then pray that night for GOd to wash away your sins because you slept with the man that day then to lay in sin with that man again is against God and yes that person would be purposely sinning. So yes there is willful sin and unwillfull sin. To break one of Gods commandments pray for forgiveness then turn around a keep doing it and repenting it everyday is will full sin. But to go out and to break a commandment by being spiteful to someone because your angry at that moment but realizing you were wrong and repenting and then not doing it again is the ticket. So purposely breaking a commandment is very very wrong. Breaking a commandment because of a moment of weakness no so bad as long as you repent and try not to do it again.. Pastors today need to stop sending messages that homosexuality is a sin that God may look over now a days because God knows the world has evolved more or what ever excuse they give is not acceptable. I understand the world has changed and God knows the world has changed but God is not going to say it is okay i will over look your horrible sin because I know the world is different today then when the bible was written. Pastors need to go back to teaching the word as it is written not how they want to adjust it for their sermons or what ever. The word was written as a tool it has not changed and will not change. We can not pick and choose what verses we want to follow and what ones we don not want to follow because we think it is not that important....
The word is the word of God not to be changed or adjusted to fit our daily needs. The word of God is supposed to followed according to God not us. So therefore it does not matter if sin is willful or unwillful Sin is Sin no matter how you look at it. If we Sin and try not to avoid it then we are not good Christians. God will forgive us for our sins If we are trying to live by his word and make a mistake. He will also notice if we keep making same mistake and try not to change it so we do not make the same mistake over and over... Like I smoke I know I am not supposed to because my body is the lords temple. I ask the lord to forgive me for smoking I know that it is not good and I ask him for strength to quit smoking. I do not think he will deny me his saving grace because I have a hard time quitting though he know I am working on my behaviors and trying to change them. So as long as he knows I am trying i think he would be okay with that. I know your talking about major sin and not smoking I am just using that as an example.
Since you will use my example, let me talk about the whole process of how God dealt with me and changed me over 30 years!
Outbursts of anger are definitely sin! When I was saved, I knew my excessive drinking was wrong and sinful, and God delivered me from it immediately. Never a drink or wanting another drink in 36 years now. But for others, a different path.
I came from a family where everyone lost their temper. Not just immediate family, but the whole extended family of my father's side. I didn't even know it was wrong. So that was ignorance. Total ignorance! My husband would point out how bad it was, and I just didn't get it. I didn't know it was sin. Until about 2 years after I was saved, when I was reading in Gal 5, and saw verses 19-21. Woe! I just got it! Help!
"19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality,impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal. 5:19-21
But I had no self control whatsoever in this issue. I was not ignorant, but neither would I willfully lose my temper. It would jut happen, like a bad habit. I would repent afterwards, and ask God to deliver me from it, and the sooner the better.
And coincidently, the cure for Gal. 5:19-21 and "outbursts of anger" was in the next verses - Gal. 5:22-23. Yes, peace, patience and self control were all needed! Armed with God's word, I set out to conquer this terrible sin in my life.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Gal. 5:22-23
I was not ignorant, but I did not willfully sin. So, I would apologize to the people I got mad at, and spend time repenting and begging God to change me. He had other plans.
About 20 years after this revelation, one day, I was having an "outburst of anger" and caught myself in the middle of it. I stopped, apologized and prayed. But this time, I thanked God for helping me overcome that sin more than in years! The next years, saw me catching myself more and more.
Then, about 5 or 6 years ago, I realized I had not lost my temper in a long, long time. Things still upset me, but rather than taking it personally, having to be defensive, I let God handle it. Sometimes that meant speaking the truth in love, and sometimes, it meant being silent.
So still no willfully sinning, but certainly being set free and given self control! And finding peace in God! Praise God.
I have had a few times in the last year where I got very upset. I really wasn't angry at anyone for anything, just tired of this ongoing pain. My husband really learned to help me through these difficult times.
As to why God did not take my temper away instantly, there are probably many reasons. One that comes to mind right now, is to be a witness in this forum. A witness to on-going sin that is neither willful, but certainly does not come out of ignorance. A witness, that God can change us radically. - sometimes it is instanteous, like my drinking and sometimes it is a long process and a hard journey. But God taught me a very important lesson:
We do need to repent of on-going sin to God and to the person we have offended, and make amends. Any talk of not needing repentance and self examination because of "grace" is simply unbalanced, and missing an essential part of the gospel.
God is not condemning, but he does want us to change and grow. Sometimes, that is through repentance, or in my case, through sickness especially, and probably many other reasons. I really dislike people who want to put God in a box, and say he doesn't require on-going repentance, or that he will automatically heal people or bless them financially which is not the God of the Bible.
God's ways are not our ways! But, we can be certain when we read the Bible, that the entire point of salvation is to be "saved from our sins." (Matt 1:21)
"She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” Matt 1:21
Of course, God moves into the whole issue of sanctification and transformation, because we are not perfect when we are justified. And God uses a lot of ways to sanctify us. And the true balance, is to acknowledge that God has justified us, but we will not be perfect till we see Jesus face to face! That is glorification.
Until that day, we are "occupying" till he comes. That means God is in the business of changing us for his glory. And part of that is identifying sin in our lives, and helping us overcome.
So although my temper is gone, going on 5 or 6 years, God has graciously given me other areas to work on. Like not giving up when the pain is so bad I cannot stand, walk, sit or lie down. Nope, I'm not praising him yet, but I am seeking him as to how to endure and a few prayers for healing, I must confess. (All prayers for some kind of resolution to this new type of pain gratefully thankful to you for!)
And God will be faithful to you in all things and I will pray for you in this area in which you are believing God for.
We all have things of the flesh that the Lord is transforming us in order to reflect His love to others and ourselves. None of us are exempt from the flesh in some form or other. There is no such thing as sinless perfection in the flesh.
Thank God for His grace. Thank God for His granting of us repentance. Thank God for revealing His Son to us. Without Him we can do nothing.
I still believe though that this is still wilfully doing it. No one made you do it - it is giving in to the flesh's desire and we do that by an act of our will. It's the same thing for all of us for whatever area we have. Sin is very deceptive and deceitful.
Do you believe you would have gone to heaven if you died after having an episode of an outburst of anger? Is it possible to have a work of the flesh that we have not been transformed yet by His grace? What happens if we die while this is still in effect in our lives?
For the record - I believe you would be in the loving arms of the Savior and your Father despite the struggle in the flesh. You were bought with the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ and you belong to Him - joined as one spirit.
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All sinning is willful - whether you believe it or not and it has been proven many times.
All works of the flesh are done with our choosing of our will. The devil does not make us do it - despite what Flip Wilson says...
NO one is advocating sinning even those that have malice and slander and outbursts of anger - they are all in the same boat as sexual sins. - works of the flesh.
Us religious people like to "categorize" sinning because then we can condemn them because "we don't do that type of sinning". This is Phariseeism at it's finest.
Hebrews 10:26 is talking about the "wilfull" sin of unbelief in the sacrifice of Christ for the taking away of their sins which is what the Hebrews were doing.
After receiving the "knowledge of the truth" that Jesus' blood alone takes away sins - - not the receiving the truth Himself - they go back to relying on the temple sacrifices for their sins. That's why there remains no more sacrifice for sins - other than in the Lord Jesus Christ.
It is the teaching and preaching of the gospel of the grace of Christ that will free us from sinning.
Grace "teaches" us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensible, righteously and godly in this present age. Titus 2:11-12
All works of the flesh are done with our choosing of our will. The devil does not make us do it - despite what Flip Wilson says...
NO one is advocating sinning even those that have malice and slander and outbursts of anger - they are all in the same boat as sexual sins. - works of the flesh.
Us religious people like to "categorize" sinning because then we can condemn them because "we don't do that type of sinning". This is Phariseeism at it's finest.
Hebrews 10:26 is talking about the "wilfull" sin of unbelief in the sacrifice of Christ for the taking away of their sins which is what the Hebrews were doing.
After receiving the "knowledge of the truth" that Jesus' blood alone takes away sins - - not the receiving the truth Himself - they go back to relying on the temple sacrifices for their sins. That's why there remains no more sacrifice for sins - other than in the Lord Jesus Christ.
It is the teaching and preaching of the gospel of the grace of Christ that will free us from sinning.
Grace "teaches" us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensible, righteously and godly in this present age. Titus 2:11-12
