Women in Ministry

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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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My personal opinion would be that I would prefer a man to lead. But, I'm not going to deny that women can minister "in the Spirit" as well as a man.

Here is perhaps a difference in our understanding Roger? I am looking for the anointing which Holy Spirit chooses to rest on, not men. For clarity, I mean not man choosing who to speak.

You are looking to law? Is this so? If I'm wrong, then please advise how.
We approach this from different view points. God anoints men to be pastors. God anoints others to minister in other capacities in the church.

I do not look to the law but Gods established order in the church. All things done decently and in order. I do not find women pastors in the bible.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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I encourage everyone to read 1 Timothy 3:1-13, and see what God's word has to say about it
There's a key element to these scriptures that you are passing over Michael, and that is the first verse.

~1Ti 3:1  This is a trustworthy saying: The one who would an elder be, a noble task desires he.

I think the kjv says if a man desires this position....then Paul describes how the man should be.

I just know that a woman can be powerful when anointed by the Lord, just as men.

A wise woman wouldn't "lord" it over men though.


 

stonesoffire

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Nov 24, 2013
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We approach this from different view points. God anoints men to be pastors. God anoints others to minister in other capacities in the church.

I do not look to the law but Gods established order in the church. All things done decently and in order. I do not find women pastors in the bible.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
And I wouldn't ask you to change your viewpoint Roger. Not concerning this matter....
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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This is the ISV, and am posting referring to post of Shrumes and Dino...

~Personal Greetings
Rom 16:1  Now I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess in the church at Cenchrea. 


Rom 16:2  Welcome her in the Lord as is appropriate for saints, and provide her with anything she may need from you, for she has assisted many people, including me. 


Rom 16:3  Greet Prisca and Aquila, who work with me for the Messiah Jesus, 


Rom 16:4  and who risked their necks for my life. I am thankful to them, and so are all the churches among the gentiles. 


Rom 16:5  Greet also the church in their house. Greet my dear friend Epaenetus, who was the first convert to the Messiah in Asia. 


Rom 16:6  Greet Mary, who has worked very hard for you. 


Rom 16:7  Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who are in prison with me and are prominent among the apostles. They belonged to the Messiah before I did. 


Rom 16:8  Greet Ampliatus, my dear friend in the Lord.
 

Rom 16:9  Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in the Messiah, and my dear friend Stachys. 


Rom 16:10  Greet Apelles, who has been approved by the Messiah. Greet those who belong to the family of Aristobulus. 


Rom 16:11  Greet Herodion, my fellow Jew. Greet those in the family of Narcissus, who belong to the Lord. 


Rom 16:12  Greet Tryphaena and Tryphosa, who have worked hard for the Lord. Greet my dear friend Persis, who has toiled diligently for the Lord. 


Rom 16:13  Greet Rufus, the one chosen by the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too. 


Rom 16:14  Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas, and the brothers who are with them. 


Rom 16:15  Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the saints who are with them. 


Rom 16:16  Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of the Messiah greet you. 

Paul speaks of one being approved by Messiah. I would ask the question, how did Paul know Messiah approved him?

Just trying to prove a point here.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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So when Men abdicate their spiritual authority God just stops?
No God does not stop, and neither does He contradict Himself. He finds other men to do the job. Many times those men are not acknowledged by those in leadership, but God's work carries on. If men abdicate their responsibilities, their women must also share the blame. A woman can make or break a man by how she supports him.

In any event, what we frequently find is that Christians resort to humanistic thinking when they are unable to comprehend, or unwilling to submit to, what God says. If evangelical and fundamentalist churches were truly obeying the New Testament pattern of church organization, administration, and constitution, there would never be a shortage of elders from within the assembly. The sad fact is there are very few churches which simply go by what the Bible teaches. What we find in the epistles is this:

1. God is the one who raises up pastor/elders within the churches by giving men the spiritual gifts of evangelist, pastor, teacher, ruler, etc. so that they can function as spiritual leaders.

2. The existing elders must faithfully teach other mean what they have been taught and hand down the things which they have learned.

3. Since the qualifications of elders have been clearly spelled out, the existing elders must constantly be looking out for others who meet those qualifications and who are also "apt to teach", and then appoint (ordain) them as elders in the sight of the assembly.

4. Elders are to labor in the Word and in doctrine, and are to be financially supported by the church. Pastor/elders must "speak as the oracles of God", yet too many today neglect Scripture and concoct their on ideas.

5. Elders have a solemn responsibility to (a) feed the flock, (b) lead and take authority over the flock, (c) protect the flock from spiritual predators, and (e) also feed the lambs. Too many pastors think that preaching a few times during the week is sufficient, and too many fail to minister to individuals (the lambs) one-on-one to determine the spiritual health of the assembly. In other words they are not really doing their job.

6. It is God -- not man -- who has ruled out women from these responsibilities, so those who dispute the matter dispute with God, not man. He has also given us His reasons for doing so, whether they suit human logic or not.

7. The negligence of those who should be proper elders is also revealed in Scripture, and unfortunately churches are generally suffering because of this (Ezekiel 34:1-12):

1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.
4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.
7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
8 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;
9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
 
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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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... You do not like what the word of God has simply stated so you go about to change it.

All the versions translate the verse the same way. It just does not fit your theology.
This is a dodge if I ever saw one. That you claim "all the versions translate the verse the same way" suggests that you haven't read more than one or two, and are unwilling to consider anything other than your interpretation.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Your point is not proven through this passage at all. So let's focus on a couple of Scriptures:

Rom 16:1  Now I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess in the church at Cenchrea.

The word "deaconess" has been gratuitously inserted. The KJB translated this correctly as "servant".

Strong's Concordance
diakonos: a servant, minister
Original Word: διάκονος, οῦ, ὁ, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine; Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: diakonos
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ak'-on-os)
Short Definition: a waiter, servant, administrator
Definition:
a waiter, servant; then of any one who performs any service, an administrator.

  Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who are in prison with me and are prominent among the apostles. They belonged to the Messiah before I did.
 
This cannot be interpreted as Andronicus and Junia being apostles. The plain meaning is that they both were well known and well respected among the apostles, as Christians who were faithfully serving the Lord. There are only twelve apostles of the Lamb (Rev 21:14).

 
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Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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This cannot be interpreted as Andronicus and Junia being apostles. The plain meaning is that they both were well known and well respected among the apostles, as Christians who were faithfully serving the Lord. There are only twelve apostles of the Lamb (Rev 21:14).
Please consider my post #92. Some translations put it this way, and such a wording most certainly can be interpreted as them being apostles.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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It is servant in the KJV..

~G1249
διάκονος
diakonos
dee-ak'-on-os
Probably from διάκω diakō (obsolete, to run on errands; compare G1377); an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess): - deacon, minister, servant.
Total KJV occurrences: 30

It would be interesting to look at the 30 places where its used too, but am not going to do it.

I just posted the ISV version. This is Dino's area of expertise. Not mine.

 
Aug 8, 2017
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I have 2 views on this,
The first one is:
There is no scriptural precedent that forbids women from also serving as worship leaders, youth ministers, or children’s directors. The only restriction is that they do not assume a role of spiritual authority over adult men. Since the concern in Scripture appears to be the issue of spiritual authority rather than function, any role that does not bestow such spiritual authority over adult men is permissible.

The second one is:
In the big picture All of us are women and the groom/husband is God.
So that would mean both male and females are the "woman" and none of us are in the position to lead the husband which is God.

I guess you could say the first answer is my human view and the second answer is my spiritual view
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Please consider my post #92. Some translations put it this way, and such a wording most certainly can be interpreted as them being apostles.
Since the Bible does not contradict itself, there cannot be 14 or 16 or 20 apostles if the Bible says that there are only twelve apostles of the Lamb, which corresponds to the 12 foundations of the wall of the New Jerusalem, and the 12 thrones reserved for the 12 apostles to rule the 12 tribes of Israel. We must take Scripture in its plain literal sense unless there is reason to do otherwise. Also everything must fit and be consistent. Judas was replaced by Paul to maintain the number 12.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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This is a dodge if I ever saw one.
Why call it a dodge (Q) The English Standard Version gives us the proper understanding of Rom 16:7

English Standard Version
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

BTW Junia is a man (Junius), not a woman.

Greet Andronicus and Junias, funianus, my kinsmen, and my fellow captives in Christ’s war; a loving and mindful reference to the human relationships which so freely, but not lightly, he had sacrificed for Christ, and to some persecution battle (was it at Philippi?) when these good men had shared his prison; men who are distinguished among the apostles; either as being themselves, in a secondary sense, devoted "apostles," Christ’s missionary delegates, though not of the Apostolate proper, or as being honoured above the common, for their toll and their character, by the Apostolic Brotherhood; who also before me came to be, as they are, in Christ. Not improbably these two early converts helped to "goad" {Acts 26:14} the conscience of their still persecuting Kinsman, and to prepare the way of Christ in his heart.

Expositor s Bible Commentary
 

Huckleberry

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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Since we have gone to an elder led way of doing things, my church has had some hurt feelings. Mostly some of the ladies do not understand why women cannot be elders. I was one of those ladies. In my research, I have found nothing to support women as elders. As much as I don't like that, I can't argue.Can you show me in scripture where God wants women as elders? I know Deborah led Israel but what does that mean? Was she supposed to? Jesus had many disciples that were women, and deacons can be women.
This has stirred up some hurt feelings. Can you help me to see where women are to be elders?
All the research I do for both for and against leads my heart to only men as elders. I don't like it, or understand it, but I have come to accept it. What that means is, men are elders. What that doesn't mean is, it is a dictatorship, men don't have to listen to women, women are not equals, men can be rude or demeaning to women.
I can't say women should be elders just because it feels right to me. God's word is right and it doesn't matter what I feel.
Please help me understand it.
Thanks!
Christine
Unfortunately your church, like many others, doesn't understand who "elders" are.
Elders are the men and women of the church who are.......*GASP*.......older!
They are not a board or committee, they are faithful
members who have a say because they're faithful.
The is no "office" of Elder, unless you're Mormon.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Since the Bible does not contradict itself, there cannot be 14 or 16 or 20 apostles if the Bible says that there are only twelve apostles of the Lamb, which corresponds to the 12 foundations of the wall of the New Jerusalem, and the 12 thrones reserved for the 12 apostles to rule the 12 tribes of Israel. We must take Scripture in its plain literal sense unless there is reason to do otherwise. Also everything must fit and be consistent. Judas was replaced by Paul to maintain the number 12.
I had forgotten that you take this view regarding the number of apostles. I don't agree, but at least I understand your position. I do find it humorous that you quote the bolded comment back to me.


Why call it a dodge (Q) The English Standard Version gives us the proper understanding of Rom 16:7

English Standard Version
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.
I call Roger's comment a dodge because he did not even begin to address the point I made regarding the phrase "outstanding among the apostles". Instead he slandered my integrity.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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This is a dodge if I ever saw one. That you claim "all the versions translate the verse the same way" suggests that you haven't read more than one or two, and are unwilling to consider anything other than your interpretation.
The problem is that you come from a position of weakness. There is no reason to take the passages literally. The verses do not say that these are to be esteemed as apostles.

If you search long enough and hard enough you will eventually come across a translation that agrees with your conclusion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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And I wouldn't ask you to change your viewpoint Roger. Not concerning this matter....
No more so than you are going to see the light that exposes the error of Pentecostalism.

Scripture is very narrow in it's intent. Women tend to take a very broad and accommodating view of things. Only men are narrow minded just ask any married woman.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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Do you consider "the granting of leadership to men" a punishment upon women? Do you have a Bible verse supporting that? Further, do you recognize that the Bible teaches that Eve was deceived, and Adam sinned (there is a distinction)?

Regarding the qualifications for elders, you have placed the emphasis on "husband". Have you considered the possibility that the emphasis should be on "one" to exclude polygamists instead? What about unmarried men or widowers? Neither is the husband of one wife... are they too excluded in your interpretation?

If one interprets the text strictly, husband of one wife coupled with having his own house in order does exclude single men; but does not exclude widowers if they demonstrated proper leadership at home while their spouses were alive.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I believe that the issue is about accountability not competence. Many women are undoubtedly competent to pastor a Church.

While I believe that Scripture clearly teaches that women as pastors and elders are not God's preference; I also believe that women who are placed in those positions by their churches are often used effectively.

Please excuse my answering a question directed to OneFaith. I also posted on the same issue and felt I should defend a strict interpretation of Scripture. You know me well enough to know that I am not motivated by legalism
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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If you search long enough and hard enough you will eventually come across a translation that agrees with your conclusion.
More slander. I thought better of you until today. You are so far off base here that you're playing in the next county. This discussion was prompted by your snarky response to another poster regarding his quotation of a particular translation of Romans 16:7, which matches any of several translations that I subsequently posted. This has absolutely nothing to do with me searching for one that matches my ideas. Rather, it has to do with your complete unwillingness to consider the wording of those translations and what that wording clearly implies. So, get off your high horse, start following the gist of the discussion, and stop insulting me. It's completely unbecoming of one who consistently claims to post "for the cause of Christ".
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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If one interprets the text strictly, husband of one wife coupled with having his own house in order does exclude single men; but does not exclude widowers if they demonstrated proper leadership at home while their spouses were alive. ...
Thanks, Marc. I don't always agree with you, but I do respect you and appreciate your input. :)