Women in Ministry

[beastslayer1970]

I liked your post Willie but on reflecting, it could be that beastslayer, is referring to the light? Or the glory of the presence being on both Adam and Eve before the fall?

But, I could be far out in left field too.

No comment from notuptome please.

Thank you.

Like I said, was Jesus walking around nude when he was resurrected into his glorified body?

What faded on Moses face and why would it not stay.

 

[beastslayer1970]

Since the Bible does not contradict itself, there cannot be 14 or 16 or 20 apostles if the Bible says that there are only twelve apostles of the Lamb, which corresponds to the 12 foundations of the wall of the New Jerusalem, and the 12 thrones reserved for the 12 apostles to rule the 12 tribes of Israel. We must take Scripture in its plain literal sense unless there is reason to do otherwise. Also everything must fit and be consistent. Judas was replaced by Paul to maintain the number 12.

I bet you are one of the those that suggest the picking of Matthias was out of order so there were never 13, because the other Apostles appointed Matthias out of the flesh.

 

[beastslayer1970]

If one interprets the text strictly, husband of one wife coupled with having his own house in order does exclude single men; but does not exclude widowers if they demonstrated proper leadership at home while their spouses were alive.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I believe that the issue is about accountability not competence. Many women are undoubtedly competent to pastor a Church.

While I believe that Scripture clearly teaches that women as pastors and elders are not God's preference; I also believe that women who are placed in those positions by their churches are often used effectively.

Please excuse my answering a question directed to OneFaith. I also posted on the same issue and felt I should defend a strict interpretation of Scripture. You know me well enough to know that I am not motivated by legalism

I appreciate this post, because many use the 1 wife meaning 1 wife for life to disqualify men that divorce if their wives are guilty of adultery.

 

[oldethennew]

as a woman, made from the Man of God:

at this time of our lives, each and every day that hub and I have to leave our home
to go out into the 'world', this IS our Ministry', not to mention whom he sends to our home:
He has taught us so many times over these many years, that He has put us out there for Him
and Him alone -it is never about ourselves,
although, of course it brings us to even closer and in a more powerful and intimate connection with Him,
and His ways for us to keep growing into whom He is calling us to be...

we just have to open-up ourselves in our Love for others, and always be attentive to their needs...
after a while, it does become just something that you want and desire to do, and that is, to help,
to heal others when they most need it...but of course, the 'KEY', is doing this in His will and not
our own emotional ones...God be Praised!!!

and yes, after all of these years, He still continually amazes us, by the works that He
puts before us...

 

[vic1980]

Enjoy the video

[video=youtube_share;VOQBqM-zcyI]http://youtu.be/VOQBqM-zcyI[/video]

Women Must Be Silent In Church?

 

[stonesoffire]

No more so than you are going to see the light that exposes the error of Pentecostalism.

Scripture is very narrow in it's intent. Women tend to take a very broad and accommodating view of things. Only men are narrow minded just ask any married woman.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Oh, I definitely see the error about Pentecostalism. It's called cessation.

Dark age thinking hasn't changed for some.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Welcome, Jellyroll123!
As this is your first post, you are excused for opening up a can of worms that has been discussed to death here.

What an excellent first reply!

 

[KelbyofGod]

There is no Scripture directly stating that women can, may, or should be elders. Some, including myself, will claim that Scripture does allow them to be, while others will argue the opposite view.

I guess I could have included this in my compliment. Not because I claim to agree with the stance you hold, but because you made a clear statement about scripture... allowing everyone the opportunity to clearly disprove it, if they can. Then you SEPARATELY and clearly stated your personal stance/assumption/belief...and acknowledged the existence of other possible stance/assumption/beliefs...without attacking either the opposite view or view holder(s).

Kudos!

-Kelby

 

[Nehemiah6]

I bet you are one of the those that suggest the picking of Matthias was out of order so there were never 13, because the other Apostles appointed Matthias out of the flesh.

Since Matthias is not mentioned after Acts 1, while Paul is constantly before us throughout the New Testament, and all his epistles put on the level of Scripture, we need not concern ourselves if Matthias was a temporary fill-in until the conversion of Saul. We have the words of Christ Himself regarding Paul, and that should suffice.

Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel (Acts 9:15).

And no, I would not suggest what you have stated above. We have no basis for making such statements.

 

[Nehemiah6]

There is no "office" of Elder, unless you're Mormon.

That is totally incorrect, and you are actually in contradiction of Scripture. But we can leave the Mormons out of this.

This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop (Gk episkopēs), he desireth a good work. (1 Tim 3:1)

The words "bishop" (episkopos) and "elder" (presbuterous) are used interchangeably. And Thayer's Greek Lexicon agrees that the word "office" is correct when speaking about this bishopric.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1984: ἐπισκοπή
c. after the analogy of the Hebrew פְּקֻדָּה (Numbers 4:16; 1 Chronicles 24:19 (here the Sept.ἐπίσκεψις), etc.), oversight i. e. overseership, office, charge;Vulg.episcopatus: Acts 1:20, from Psalm 108:8 (); specifically, the office of a bishop (the overseer or presiding officer of a Christian church): 1 Timothy 3:1, and in ecclesiastical writings.

You will find the same word in Acts 1:20 and translated as "bishoprick", but could be translated as "office".

For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick (Gk episkopēn) let another take. (KJB)

English Standard Version
“For it is written in the Book of Psalms, “‘May his camp become desolate, and let there be no one to dwell in it’; and “‘Let another take his office.’

International Standard Version
"For in the Book of Psalms it is written, 'Let his estate be desolate, and let no one live on it,' and, 'Let someone else take over his office,'

 

[KelbyofGod]

I am OK with heated discussion, but I need proof from the bible, not just feelings.

Please forgive me for only quoting one line of your comment. I just did that as a reminder, to all who reply, of the specific type of answer you have requested...a clear statement in the bible. And Dino was nice enough to clearly state "It's not in there" (paraphrased).

So I also, cannot offer what you request.

However, I will offer a way to find the truth of the matter. And I'll share my own experience questioning a similar stance within my own church group.

First, the way.. As simple as it sounds, ask God. But you'll have to ask him in faith that he is willing to actually answer you...which might be hard to do if you have been taught that God doesn't speak anymore. <--I'll wait to hear your stance on that before venturing further along that vein.

Meanwhile, I'll share my experience. (not expecting you to act on it. Just sharing for your consideration because Jesus said "what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops").

I'm a man, and have no problem saying that most of my bosses, and most of my best teachers (in God, life, business) have been women. The best of which often said "Beware of women. We're dangerous!"... which, although also humorous...she meant whole-heartedly. She had no official position in the church, and needs none. She has the spiritual goods. <--'Nuff said.

Meanwhile, our church had what I'll call a policy/belief that women aren't to hold office within the church. Because of my experiences, I was beginning to seriously question that policy/belief, wondering if it was just an archaic bias of the church 'fathers'. But, instead of trusting man.... by asking my (woman) teacher, or my (male) church leaders, or trusting my own (male) understanding of the bible...I instead did what I was taught and sought God directly. <--great lesson, btw

So I took my questionings to God in prayer...effectively asking if the policy had actual, actionable merit or if it ought to be replaced. He showed me two things...one modern, one ancient.

The modern one = any saying (proverb) that goes like this.. (and there are numerous versions making the same point) "The mistake women make in marriage is thinking they will be able to change their man. ... The mistake men make in marriage is thinking their woman will stay the same." <-- which goes to the assumptions and internal thinking of each...and also ACKNOWLEDGES that each is making a mistake... just different mistakes.

The ancient one = Genesis 3 (the story of Adam & Eve, which we all likely know)

The problem with the woman's thinking in both modern and ancient versions is that she is looking at the faults...and is assuming it is her job to "fix it".

The problem with the man’s thinking in both modern and ancient versions is that he is only looking at only the good,... is not realizing the situation can change/deteriorate,... and doesn’t realize he needs to step up and do something in godly authority if he wants all to be/remain well.

What he showed me further, in regards to the woman was this (in case we didn’t see the scale of the situation)… Not only did she think that Adam wasn’t good enough the way he was… She also didn’t think she was good enough… And she even thought God wasn’t doing a good enough job.

And because the modern proverb/saying/joke is still observed and applicable, it shows that the underlying reasons are still in effect.

What he showed me today is that in God’s handling of the matter in Genesis 3, he addressed BOTH their problems. He gave the woman a position that would cause her to face and deal with her lack of trust / desire for control. And he gave the man a position that would require him to pay attention, to act, and to function properly in the authority/responsibility he’d shirked earlier.

Sorry that was so long. I hope it wasn’t offensive.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

P.S. if anyone desires to quote (for agreement or debate) PLEASE quote only a piece.

 

[Didymous]

A woman can be in any office that the Lord appoints for her. Same as a man.

Selah

How would the Lord appoint a woman to be a pastor? Through a word of knowledge, as some pentecostal and charismatic members give out? A pentecostal friend told me of a fellow who gave a man and woman standing next to each other a "word of knowledge" from GOD that HE was going to save their marriage. The only problem was this: The man and woman were father and daughter.

 

[joefizz]

Well actually "biblically speaking" men get "first consideration" as Paul clarifies the "order" established by God,even referring to women as the "back bone" of churches,many claim that women can't do certain things in ministry but this isn't quite accurate because while a man in the general "order" of things is to "Preach" and "teach" God's word and so many times did God "use" women in ministry or "leading" Israel when "Men" weren't found for the job,such names of women include...
Abigail(kept David from shedding blood intervening for her husband Nabal's sake though he didn't want her to do so.Deborah(the only prophetess allowed by God biblically that lead Israel for a time)Esther(spoke on behalf of her Hebrew family to the king at that time,saving all of them from affliction)
God will always choose according to "Order" someone for to serve him,simple as that,silence and other such words regarding women doesn't mean that men "lord over them" it means they simply must abide to God's "established order" this also doesn't mean they "have no say or part in church" according to God's order a woman can have her husband speak for her or under "occasion" a woman may undertake a man's role in church but....
Only if no man suitable by God is found,no need to go "overboard" it really "stands to reason" biblically.

 

[Didymous]

As mentioned before, GOD's old testament covenant people have nothing to do with the new testament church.

 

[garee]

I think in the end of the matter its all about representative glory .The true glory, the unveiling of the bride will not occur until the wedding supper is finished in the new heavens and earth. It is what the drinking the blood of the grapes and bread of his will under the head covering cerimoinal law do represent. the only glory to be seen when families gather together is the representative glory as sign for the angels who long to look into salvation .Seeing they are not subject to the effect of grace and mercy

The new order of government found in 1 Corinthians 11 came as a result of the time of reformation . The previous time period of using the outward flesh of a Jew signified as sinful in the priesthood as shadows in a parable that anticipated Christ came for a demonstration of that not seen... the pouring out of His Spirit had come to a end. The veil was rent signifying the end of the use of a outward temple..

A different order in respect to ceremonial laws, a time when more than one family gathered together had set its new figure as a representative glory. It was not something like all cerimoinail laws that could be judged like that of the Sabbath ceremony. The new kingdom of priest simply has a new restored order that looks back to a time period when there was no king in Israel the time of the Judges like that of Deborah. Before God gave them over temporarily to do that which they should not of.

We compare the old order of Judges to the new cerimoinail laws.The time period of using one nation had come to a end.

 

[JohnOs]

The Bible says twice "do not allow women to speak" and "do not allow women to teach". The new testament Greek word both times for speak and teach is the same word meaning in English (dissertate). Meaning deal with an issue, as in handle a current situation by leadership. Women can actually preach, teach, sing, etc., as long as they are not handling a situation. For example a woman can preach on marriage and faith and or teach on it, but a woman cannot preach to Bill and Susan who are struggling with divorce and council their life situation.

 

[FlSnookman7]

Welcome to CC!!

This is "one of those issues" that many will plant their flag on and defend to the end. It seems to me that since God called women to lead (Deborah,Judges 4, Miriam, Micah 6:4) and He choose a woman to be the 1st evangelist ( Samaritan woman, John 4) and He also called women to be the first to announce His resurrection (Mary and Mary Matthew 28) that God has no issue with calling women or men. That said, the Word seems quite specific regarding the topic. I will file this under "I need to study more", and save my flag for later...LOL.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I will file this under "I need to study more", and save my flag for later...LOL.

That's better than planting a false flag. Back to the OP, women can have all kinds of ministries, but they are forbidden from preaching, teaching, and usurping authority within the local assembly. Of course, some women will want the forbidden fruit, just like Eve. And it is precisely because of Eve that women are barred from such ministries. Your OT examples should be put on the shelf to gather dust.

 

[FlSnookman7]

That's better than planting a false flag. Back to the OP, women can have all kinds of ministries, but they are forbidden from preaching, teaching, and usurping authority within the local assembly. Of course, some women will want the forbidden fruit, just like Eve. And it is precisely because of Eve that women are barred from such ministries. Your OT examples should be put on the shelf to gather dust.

So now the OT can be put on a shelf? You mean until you use it to prove a point you agree with?.....attempt at humor there, please don't be offended.

 

[p_rehbein]

That's better than planting a false flag. Back to the OP, women can have all kinds of ministries, but they are forbidden from preaching, teaching, and usurping authority within the local assembly. Of course, some women will want the forbidden fruit, just like Eve. And it is precisely because of Eve that women are barred from such ministries. Your OT examples should be put on the shelf to gather dust.

Not true whatsoever........just Denominational Theology, nothing more......but, hey, good try

Can't believe this subject made it's way back again.........oh well........