Women Keep Silent (Please Don't Derail)

[tucksma]

I agree 100% that scripture can have multiple levels, but some are saying the base level in this scripture doesn't exist at all which is the idea women should not lead in the church. The bible clearly says that. There are multiple lessons you may get from it and I agree that we should all read out own bibles! Believers can learn from other believers though, that just shouldn't be there root of learning. The root should be their own personal study. But to say that the bible is not saying that women should not speak in the church is wrong and false, because clearly it does.

I'm not arguing rather this verse can apply the way you are saying or not, I am arguing that at the core of this scripture the words show that women do not lead in the church. Also your psalms verse there doesn't really sound like soul is a women. It sounds like it is saying "my" soul shall make "her" as in a different thing, boast in the Lord. If soul = women in that verse than it is saying my soul shall make my soul boast in the Lord which doesn't really fit.

 

[KJV1611]

Also your psalms verse there doesn't really sound like soul is a women. It sounds like it is saying "my" soul shall make "her" as in a different thing, boast in the Lord. If soul = women in that verse than it is saying my soul shall make my soul boast in the Lord which doesn't really fit.

Take that verse and ask your husband at home lol... I can't teach it to you, only the Lord can show you what I'm talking about. Ask the Lord to show you the truth.

 

[tucksma]

Good advise, but that still doesn't address the fact that people are missing out on the first level of that teaching.

 

[Gjolll]

Some people are under the misconception that the entire body of believers is the woman. This is not true each believer is the woman and our husband is Christ. The bible refers to our souls as the woman.

Psa 34:2 My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad.

So you're advocating polygamy are you? Christ in the new Solomon with zillions of wives?

What you're ignoring is that human marriage is only ever used as a type of the relation between Christ and the church. There is no real marriage, and Christ is not married to his church, except in so far as it is figuratively taken to denote the "body of his bride," nor to any believers. To talk of believers being "married" to God is wrong, and stretching the analogy too far. For the believer, the relation to God is a spiritual relation, whereas the female male relation is a physical relation, where the female may actually be more spiritual than the male. The concept of marriage is used to denote some aspects of Christ's relation to the church, but the analogy must not be stretched too far otherwise it becomes unsustainable. It is stretched too far when marriage stops being used figuratively, and starts being used literally.

 

[homwardbound]

Adam was the (Christ the husband), Eve was the wife (church).
That's what the whole point of this post was. Women (church members) should learn from their husbands (Christ).

What I read from this causes ne to ask this
Are you a male chauvinist? Just curious
I mean is this verse below rtrue or not from God's vantage point

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

 

[p_rehbein]

oops................

 

[Misty77]

I will repeat a concept that I have posted before: Use extreme caution when using the writings of Paul to form doctrines that you are applying to all people. These letters were written to specific churches, in specific time periods, and in response to specific situations. It's like hearing only one side of a phone conversation because you are missing a lot of context.

Here is an example: your friend has leftover ham and calls you to ask if he can feed it to your dog who is at home while you are on vacation. You, understanding that pork products make your dog sick, reply, "Thank you for your thoughtfulness, Bob; but please don't feed the dog. The girl down the street takes care of that for us." The person in the room next to you only hears what you say and then forms an entire theology that men are never to feed dogs, but that it is the duty of women, especially those that are minors. That person did not hear what Bob said and does not know what history has led you to respond the way you did.

Yes, the epistles are also the inspired Word of God. You just have to take the truths that you glean from them and see how they mesh with scripture as a whole. KJV brings out a very telling adjective, "your," in the phrase, "let your women keep silent in the churches." This is not a modifier he uses with instructions to women in other writings, which would indicate that this is something specific to the Corinthian churches. Corinth was a major hub in the sea trade with 2 harbors and plenty of temple prostitutes for sailors on shore leave. Worship of the goddess Aphrodite was lead by women in seductive manners. Like today, the culture and pagan religions tend to seep into the churches, and these were behaviors that simply could not be tolerated. That is why Paul's stance against female leadership is strongest in the letters to the Corinthians; it is because he is writing in response to extreme licentiousness.

In his letter to the Galatians, he frequently rebukes their legalism and what is probably sexism, too. In Galatians 3:26, Paul says, "ye are all sons," and he is speaking to both men and women. Even in some cultures today but especially throughout history, daughters did not have the same rights as sons. Paul is emphasizing that God has no second-class children because His sons and daughters are equal heirs. He goes even further to declare that there is no difference in Christ because of ethnicity, autonomy, or gender. But that is because he is writing in response to severe legalism.

[Galatians 3:26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[SUP]g[/SUP] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.]

 

[Misty77]

When we start getting hung up on the few passages that seem to limit a woman's role in the church, here are a few things to keep in mind. Entire passages of scripture exist only because a woman told a man about it. No man was around for parts of Hagar's story, Hannah's prayer, Jael's defeat of Sisera, the angels that visited Samson's mom and Mary, Ruth's journey, Esther's courage, and the women who were the first witnesses of the empty tomb; and that is just for starters. That means a woman taught a man who then wrote that down for all believers of all ages to know. How is that essentially different from a woman teaching? The only difference is that there is a literal middle man involved.

Jesus had the 12 disciples, but there were a lot of people who followed him, including women like Mary Magdalene, Salome, and a lot of women named Mary. (Interesting note: Mary means "stubborn" ) Unlike the disciples that ignored Jesus' clear teachings that he was going to die, Mary purposefully anointed Jesus' feet with oil in preparation for his death and burial (John 12:1-8). She ministered to him an a way that the men completely neglected, probably because she is the one who chose to learn at Jesus' feet above all else. Women were present for the crucifixion when the men had fled. Even though their testimony was inadmissible in court, women were the first to witness the resurrection.

The book of Philippians only exists because of a group of faithful women. Paul was intending to go somewhere else when the Holy Spirit told him to go to Asia where he "happened" upon a group of women worshiping by the river because there were not even the 10 men necessary to have a synagogue. It is also interesting to note that Paul's letter to the Philippians is one of the most kindly-worded of his writings, and that church was not subject to rebuke.

There are also several notable women in the early church. Priscilla, along side her husband Aquilla, ministered with Paul who later sent Apollos to learn from them. There was Phoebe the deaconess, Phillip's 4 daughters who prophesied, as well as Chloe, Lydia, Apphia, Nympha, and the mother of John Mark who were all vital for the survival of the early church. We can't forget the much-debated Junia, whose female gender was unquestioned for over a thousand years until someone decided that a woman could not be considered among the apostles.

We have all heard Ephesians 5:22 ad nauseum, but who remembers to include verse 21 which sets the context that we are all to submit (yield our will) to each other? Abraham was commanded by God to "harken" [the word is actually "obey"] to his wife Sarah regarding Hagar. In fact, people in general are called to submission more than women specifically, which is further evidence that the emphasis on feminine submission is more contextual than universal.

We have all heard "sola scriptura," meaning "only scripture." Let's also make it "tota scriptura" to include the whole and complete Word of God.
[feel free to correct my limited Latin]

 

[Gjolll]

When we start getting hung up on the few passages that seem to limit a woman's role in the church, here are a few things to keep in mind. Entire passages of scripture exist only because a woman told a man about it. No man was around for parts of Hagar's story, Hannah's prayer, Jael's defeat of Sisera, the angels that visited Samson's mom and Mary, Ruth's journey, Esther's courage, and the women who were the first witnesses of the empty tomb; and that is just for starters. That means a woman taught a man who then wrote that down for all believers of all ages to know. How is that essentially different from a woman teaching? The only difference is that there is a literal middle man involved.

No one is saying that women don't have a right to speak or contribute. In the assembly of the saints, they must be silent because Gpd's order must be seen to be upheld. They should also be required to cover their heads. If you can't take it, check out Tts 3:10. God's divine order must be upheld in all things 1Cr 11:3.

 

[Misty77]

No one is saying that women don't have a right to speak or contribute. In the assembly of the saints, they must be silent because Gpd's order must be seen to be upheld. They should also be required to cover their heads. If you can't take it, check out Tts 3:10. God's divine order must be upheld in all things 1Cr 11:3.

My point was that those ''commands'' by Paul are to be understood in the context in which they were given. Do you also kiss all of the men in your church when you greet them or have you changed that command to fit your culture by shaking hands now? (Romans 16:16, I Corinthians 16:20, II Corinthians 13:12, I Thessalonians 5:26)
Do you give offerings to help fellow believers every Sunday, or do you give in a manner that reflects your pay schedule? (I Corinthians 16:2)
The Bible is absolutely true, but you need to understand the context before you try to formulate universally-applicable theology.

 

[KJV1611]

What I read from this causes ne to ask this
Are you a male chauvinist? Just curious
I mean is this verse below rtrue or not from God's vantage point

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

No I am not a male chauvinist and yes I believe exactly what Galatians and Acts says.... But most people have no idea of what the body of Christ is. To most it's spiritual gobbledygook meaning those who have accepted Christ. In other words the "body of Christ" is not really a "body". The body of Christ is a "real" body and it's still in the womb, it has not been born yet. This is way beyond what most people can comprehend.

In the spiritual body of Christ there is no more male and female. In the corporate body of believers there is still male and female, and the female is to remain silent.

 

[Gjolll]

My point was that those ''commands'' by Paul are to be understood in the context in which they were given. Do you also kiss all of the men in your church when you greet them or have you changed that command to fit your culture by shaking hands now? (Romans 16:16, I Corinthians 16:20, II Corinthians 13:12, I Thessalonians 5:26)
Do you give offerings to help fellow believers every Sunday, or do you give in a manner that reflects your pay schedule? (I Corinthians 16:2)
The Bible is absolutely true, but you need to understand the context before you try to formulate universally-applicable theology.

There are no real biblical churches in the UK, so kissing is out. It could only take place in a true church of God and there aren't any for everyone is corrupted by perverse doctrine. Commands re women and men are eternal. There is nothing in any passage that Paul writes to suggest what he said was limited timewise. In 1 Cor 11, the phrase "we have no such custom enither the churches of God" refers not to his teaching but to the new fangled custom of the Corinthians in introducing female equality. The order is a divine and therefore eternal order. Women covered their heads in church until around 50 years ago in most places, and some still do.

 

[doulos]

I will repeat a concept that I have posted before: Use extreme caution when using the writings of Paul to form doctrines that you are applying to all people. These letters were written to specific churches, in specific time periods, and in response to specific situations. It's like hearing only one side of a phone conversation because you are missing a lot of context.

1Co 1:1-2 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Are you a Christian that calls upon the name of JesusChrist? If so then the letter to the Corinthians is also for you. Read the bolded part of the verses quoted above. Start with a misconception and your whole house of cards will tumble.

Remember folks times and places change but God does not, if God’s inspired word tells us something was wrong 2000 years ago it is still wrong today.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day,and for ever.