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I know what I posted earlier - and I still agree with it. But last night the Lord woke me up with the words, "It is all yours - all my promises are yes and amen in Christ. It is my pleasure to give these to you. They belong to you." 3:00 in the morning!
Now, I'm not going to preach this to everyone. The Holy Spirit has to make this as real to them, as He did to me last night. He knew that I needed a stronger affirmation since I was tending to lean on "If it be thy will" more and more.
From now on, I will stand on the promises (they are mine) - but I will let them manifest as God chooses - his timing and his way.
I think I did say something earlier to pray as the Spirit leads you - well last night, He sure led me to pray with stronger faith in His promises. They are mine.
Joi
Now, I'm not going to preach this to everyone. The Holy Spirit has to make this as real to them, as He did to me last night. He knew that I needed a stronger affirmation since I was tending to lean on "If it be thy will" more and more.
From now on, I will stand on the promises (they are mine) - but I will let them manifest as God chooses - his timing and his way.
I think I did say something earlier to pray as the Spirit leads you - well last night, He sure led me to pray with stronger faith in His promises. They are mine.
Joi
It is clear to me over the last months here on CC how very misunderstood prosperity for the Christian is perceived - even when the very word is used. Some Christians pounce on it as if you are talking about blatant sin. Even dear kind sweet Christians who I have come to respect here on CC lose sight of anything said after the words..."prosperity" or "word of faith"
All reasoning stops and only preconceived thoughts are able to bounce around their heads.
I left the bible study room frustrated that no matter what I tried to say it, I could not get through the preconcieved views of my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Even using the word "LOVE" was not safe because somehow I didn't also talk of judgment.
I was accused of preaching a false gospel. When I shared about how the Lord had taken my life and brought it out of the pit and onto solid ground, some accused me of not trusting in Jesus but only on what Jesus could do for me.
God is our Father and He loves us. He promises to take care of us and bring us out into a dry land. A place of safety and an abundant life that only He can give. And yet many Christians can only see the earthly problems around them and focus on the sad and temporal things this world has to offer.
Our minds are the place where many of our spiritual battles are won or lost. For those like me, our minds were full of fear and dread. Many were like me and did not leave the house, living in a world where they meet people on line only. Fear had taken hold in their minds and become part of who they are. But JESUS has more for us!!!. That is not who we are ANYMORE!
That is my testimony, He changed my mind (granted repentance) and gave it soundness where only fear and confusion ruled for years. The ugliness that we cannot understand or fathom is defeated each day because Jesus put us in the family. The death and destruction that God never created us for has been defeated IN CHRIST. We now walk as kings and priests in this present world. (but many call this a false gospel) (???????)
How often I hear Christians talk about the suffering dying saints of old. But NEVER do they talk about the joyful, victorious., excited to be alive Christians of old., and since they see no joyful Christians of old, they think there are NO joyful Christians now either! Yes, there were some joyous Christians in the Bible and many who wrote books of their joyful delightful life IN CHRIST. I am shocked so many Christians on CC do not want to even know about them or even believe we exsist!
We do and our numbers are increasing!!! Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation.... It must be world wide in Christian circles because my devotional this morning also says the first thing people do is think of the negative. Instinctively because of our human nature. BUT NOW WE HAVE A NEW NATURE and we are supposed to live by faith NOT by sight!!
1 Thess. 5:8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
This means we CHOOSE to believe that this trial will pass and that GOD our Father will see us through.
Again, it says we will perservere , our preservation is in God's hands and His hands are solid and able. Even though we do NOT know what the next day will bring, our helmet of salvation gives us the ABILITY to have - good expectation - of God's hand IN our life. Not bad expectation of God NOT in our life. (He IS our life)
The rain falls on everyone but if you are a child of God it falls differently for sure on you!!!! But if you don't believe that and you refuse to trust God will abide, then the experience of faith will not be felt. This cannot be argued.
The mind is where these battles are waged. It pleases the Father when we trust Him and expect from Him. Why do so many Christians fight this truth tooth and nail?? Why is it preaching a false gospel to say I believe God loves us enough to follow through with His promises to care and love us?? To protect us and be on our side?? It is a truth that is sweet.
There is NO power when I lack faith in the Lord who secured my salvation IN HIS SON JESUS. I will not let Jesus sacrafice be in vein in my life by not believing what He says He will do. For all of us who walk the path of faith and see the horrors of the world and yet can walk in confidence INSPITE of the sickness and death all around us., I say keep up the good fight brothers and sisters! Believe regardless of what your eyes see!!!!!
Dare to believe what He said He will do and don't look at other people, but look to JESUS. He is the One we are told to behold.
Psalm 91 HE WHO DWELLS IN THE SECRET PLACE OF THE MOST HIGH WILL ABIDE UNDER THE SHADOW OF THE ALMIGHTY.
This is to be taken LITERALLY!!!
I WILL SAY (WE SHOULD SAY IT) OF THE LORD HE IS MY REFUGE AND MY FORTRESS, MY GOD, IN HIM WILL I TRUST. (not the bad news on tv or the weather reports)
FOR THEN HE WILL DELIVER YOU FROM THE SNARE OF THE FOWLER AND FROM THE DEADLY PESTILENCE...
like the deadly illnesses the news delivers us daily on tv and radio. Do we believe He will deliver us from those things?????? I submit to you in the Bible study room - what do you give weight to??? the illnesses., cancer.,, head choppings??? or that HE will deliver you from those things? I chose to believe He will deliver me. And you can too!
THEN HE WILL COVER YOU WITH HIS PINIONS AND UNDER HIS WINGS SHALL YOU TRUST AND FIND REFUGE; HIS TRUTH AND HIS FAITHFULNESS ARE A SHIELD AND A BUCKLER.
He is faithful!!!
YOU SHALL NOT BE AFRAID OF THE TERROR OF THE NIGHT, NOR OF THE ARROW THE EVIL PLOTS AND SLANDERS OF THE WICKED THAT FLIES BY DAY.
NOR OF THE PESTILENCE THAT STALKS IN THE DARKNESS, NOR OF THE DESTRUCTION AND SUDDEN DEATH THAT SURPRISE AND LAY WASTE AT NOONDAY.
It's always the sudden things that we fear will come upon us without warning. How much better life is when we don't even THINK that way any longer!!! He gives this ability!!
A THOUSAND MAY FALL AT YOUR SIDE, AND TEN THOUSAND AT YOUR RIGHT HAND, BUT IT SHALL NOT COME NEAR YOU.
At some point in our lives we either will believe this or not., or wonder why it is put in the bible and just sit on the fence not knowing what to think. I and many others who you call word of faith people., take this literally. And I also trust that I will not be put to shame for trusting in Him. I must walk by faith daily and not think like some of you in the bible study room said... "she is going to be surprised when horrible things happen and she is not protected." I accept by faith He will come through and that is all I need to understand. Faith is NOT about understanding ,, it is about believing what God promises against alllll odds. Heb. 11:1
ONLY A SPECTATOR SHALL YOU BE..YOURSELF INACCESSIBLE IN THE SECRET PLACE OF THE MOST HIGH AS YOU WITNESS THE REWARD OF THE WICKED
How is this possible??????? seeing it all around you and only being a spectator?? you yourself being inaccessible???? makes absolutely NO sense. Yet to accept it by faith gives life meaning.
BECAUSE YOU HAVE MADE THE LORD YOUR REFUGE AND THE MOST HIGH YOUR DWELLING PLACE.,
THERE SHALL NO EVIL BEFALL YOU, NOR ANY PLAGUE OR CALAMITY COME NEAR YOUR TENT.
FOR HE WILL GIVE HIS ANGELS ESPECIAL CHARGE OVER YOU TO ACCOMPANY AND DEFEND AND PRESERVE YOU IN ALL YOUR WAYS OF OBEDIENCE AND SERVICE.
THEY SHALL BEAR YOU UP ON THEIR HANDS LEST YOU DASH YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.
YOU SHALL TREAD UPON THE LION AND THE ADDER; THE YOUNG LION AND THE SERPENT SHALL YOU TRAMPLE UNDERFOOT
BECAUSE HE HAS SET HIS LOVE UPON ME, THEREFORE WILL I DELIVER HIM; I WILL SET HIM ON HIGH, BECAUSE HE KNOWS AND UNDERSTANDS MY NAME.
HAS A PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF MY MERCY, LOVE, AND KINDNESS---TRUSTS AND RELIES ON ME, KNOWING I WILL NEVER FORSAKE HIM NO NEVER. HE SHALL CALL UPON ME, AND I WILL ANSWER HIM; I WILL BE WITH HIM IN TROUBLE, I WILL DELIVER HIM AND HONOR HIM.
WITH LONG LIFE WILL I SATISFY HIM AND SHOW HIM MY SALVATION..
These verses are true., they are for us today. Don't be angry at those who are your brothers and sisters in Christ who have stepped forward and began to walk this road of faith. We don't understand Christians like George Mueller who actually prayed for the meal before it arrived as he confidently waited for God to feed the orphans. This kind of faith pleases the Father. Don't discourage Christians when they look with confident expectation that God will work in each situation.
There are so many exegetical and hermeneutical errors in this OP, it is hard to know where to start.
1. Pulling verses out of context. I'm not going to deal with that, since there are only a few references to where things are in the Bible, showing an appalling Biblical illiteracy on the part of the OP.
2. Starting with a premise, rather than with the Bible. That goes back to #1, where you have to pull the verses out of context, in order to prove your point, which is completely bogus.
3. Shoving a million verses at us to prove a dubious point, rather than using them to explain what you are saying. It may be the Word of God, but it is very wrongly handled.
The ignorance of the WHOLE Bible is appalling in the Word Faith movement. It is a "me" gospel, rather than a "God" gospel. It is about getting all you want from God, rather than giving your all to God.
It is a movement that is totally out of touch with reality, and it is insulting and harmful to many people. I was never hurt more in my life that when two Word Faith friends told me I was hindering God because I was not healed of debilitating Rheumatoid Arthritis. In fact, one of those two got cancer, and refused treatment, and despite being an ordained Kenneth Copeland pastor, believing in faith for healing, she died 10 months later, when the cancer took over her entire body. So much for Word Faith!
Further, my journey is that God has changed and transformed me, BECAUSE I am sick! God says in his Word, that he will be with us, and he will change us through suffering and pain.
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by name, you are mine.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you;
when you walk through fire you shall not be burned,
and the flame shall not consume you." Isa. 43:1b-2
Here is a verse God gave me, and fulfilled when I went through a time of terrible suffering:
"Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, [SUP]4 [/SUP]and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5
The fact is, everyone is suffering in one way or another! But we find joy and peace through our relationship with Christ, not through being a greedy child who demands God heal or make them rich. The US and Canada are littered with people who have had their life savings stolen from them by Health and Wealth and Prosperity teachers. I've met them in Seminary, in my church, as they have had to go back and rethink their entire theology about God, and how evil the Word Faith movement is.
I am a chaplain in long term care. The fact is, everyone dies sooner or later. If you are lucky enough to live a long time, you will likely contract some degenerative or genetic illness, and need the care of a facility for the ill. I teach Bible studies, and we studied suffering and depression, and those people taught me so much about faith, about God's love and care for them, and leading them in the paths of righteousness, in spite of terrible sicknesses and illnesses.
I will close with the admonition that the Word Faith movement is evil, and from the pit of hell. God never promised us a perfect life (see Job!) He is a perfect God, who will see us through the storms and trials of life. I will address the verses you pulled out of context in 2 Cor. 4, in a later post.
This is written at the end of Paul's life, and he is realizing that this life is not all we have. He has suffered terribly, but he still gives the glory to God.
"But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. [SUP]8 [/SUP]We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair;[SUP]9 [/SUP]persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; [SUP]10 [/SUP]always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. [SUP]12 [/SUP]So death is at work in us, but life in you." 2 Cor. 4:7-12
What is being renewed? Our body, or our spirit??
"So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, [SUP]18 [/SUP]as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal." 2 Cor. 4:16-18
It is pretty obvious that this world is not what we were created for. We are WASTING AWAY in our bodies, but we look to the promise of the hope of eternity with Christ!
As for Hebrews 11:1, maybe you need to read the whole chapter!!
"who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, [SUP]34 [/SUP]quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.[SUP]35 [/SUP]Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. [SUP]37 [/SUP]They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword.They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— [SUP]38 [/SUP]of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.[SUP]39 [/SUP]And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, [SUP]40 [/SUP]since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect." Hebrews 11:33-39
[SUP] "[/SUP]And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised!"
This is the real truth - we may never receive what was promised, but one day, as a community, not individuals, we will be with Jesus Christ. That is my hope, and my peace and my joy!
My suggestion is for the OP to stop reading Word Faith propaganda, and stop watching youtube videos. Instead, she needs to sit down and read the Bible, over and over and over. God will speak to you through his Word. And when tribulations, sickness or poverty come upon you, you will be able to stand, as Eph. 6 so clearly says, because you will be relying on God, not some twisted interpretation of the Bible by men out for their own gain, and their own fame.
If I found a promise about God's prospering me, I would have faith and receive that promise. And thank him.
But in answer to your question, how he chooses to prosper me is His choice. I am not going to tell Him how to do it. And prosper could be in ways that you would not think of. Actually to me I would feel prospered if I had money to easily pay for all our bills every month. Other people would not feel God was prospering them unless they had an abundance.
I would expect anything and everything - and all the while be content with what I had.
When I have a need, I usually pray for God to meet the need, not how I want God to answer it.
But in answer to your question, how he chooses to prosper me is His choice. I am not going to tell Him how to do it. And prosper could be in ways that you would not think of. Actually to me I would feel prospered if I had money to easily pay for all our bills every month. Other people would not feel God was prospering them unless they had an abundance.
I would expect anything and everything - and all the while be content with what I had.
When I have a need, I usually pray for God to meet the need, not how I want God to answer it.
L
Like you joidevivre., when I stepped out in faith believing that the promises were mine from my heavenly Father it built on my faith - giving me an assurance, and more faith to believe Him regardless of outward circumstances.
This faith journey is very wonderful. It brings the kind of joy that allows us to go out and do what we have to do - not fearing. I could not do this without faith that God will take care of me when I leave this house. When I get into my car (and it works!) Or when I meet a new client., or begin to dare to believe God has all kinds of things for me to do today!
Since beginning this walk of faith, the revelation of His love for me is what keeps the power in the step. Instead of expecting something bad to happen because of my limited view of life and ability, I find myself seeing the next thing as something good and not evil. Jesus qualified us for every single blessing because He has kept all of the commandments.
He redeemed us from the curse of the law. (Gal. 3:13) Christ purchased our freedom redeeming us from the curse (doom) of the Law and it's condemnation - by Himself becoming a curse for us, for it is written cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.
I believe that Jesus is our qualification for God's blessings. Duet.28:2
Looking at myself stopped me from claiming the promises because of my failures; so that defeated my faith EVERY time.
He redeemed us from the curse of the law but not the blessings!, they are still ours today.
Deut. 28 Blessed shall you be in the city...in the country..the fruit of your body...your basket... when you come in... when you go out....vv.3-13
That these things are taken by faith in what Jesus did and NOT on my worthiness. That is freedom to be fallible yet striving to be more but doing it by faith. Making the yoke easy and the burden lite!
We don't deserve blessings but we get them because of Jesus. It's always because of Jesus. That is what grace is about. The law says you must deserve the blessings., but the law is no longer here. Grace is here. So I am learning to take the blessings by grace through faith.
As I read more and more about Jesus and grace., it's about how much I believe God for His blessings. All the promises of God in Christ are YES and because we are in Christ, we can say amen. 2 Cor.1:20
For as many as are the promises of God, they all find their Yes (answer) in Him. (Christ)
For this reason we also utter the Amen (so be it) to God through Him (in His Person and by His agency) to the glory of God.
Amplified Bible
I logged in, just to like this post, and speak my mind under this thread once more.
It is sad that, although these blinded brethren are being warned of the satanic doctrines of the Word of Faith cult, they still cling to their cherished affiliation to said cult, declaring that they are different. I have posted 3 videos highlighting the disgusting teachings of that cult, and yet, I don't think they bothered to even watch a few minutes of it, thinking the know better....it's just very sad and distressing. And I have to admit, very frustrating as well.
I hope and pray that they would soon see the truth, before it's too late.
If you are truly different, and true Christians indeed, then be set apart from this satanic movement!!!
2 Timothy 3:1-9 King James Version (KJV)
3 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
It is sad that, although these blinded brethren are being warned of the satanic doctrines of the Word of Faith cult, they still cling to their cherished affiliation to said cult, declaring that they are different. I have posted 3 videos highlighting the disgusting teachings of that cult, and yet, I don't think they bothered to even watch a few minutes of it, thinking the know better....it's just very sad and distressing. And I have to admit, very frustrating as well.
I hope and pray that they would soon see the truth, before it's too late.
If you are truly different, and true Christians indeed, then be set apart from this satanic movement!!!
2 Timothy 3:1-9 King James Version (KJV)
3 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
When I was a student, out of work due to moving back to the US from Israel,
I was in true financial hardship by the standards of this culture.
But God provided for me and my family, and gave us many blessings.
When we faced an issue, or a bill, or car trouble, or a shortage of anything,
We brought it before the Father, and He provided a way.
This is the promise He gave to us, and we can surely cling to it: that He WILL provide for our needs.
The issue is that Joyce Meyers claims that her private jet and mansions are because of her doctrine, and that God blesses her with these things because she is powerfully full of faith.
Her jet and mansions are ill-gotten gains!
She takes from the suckers who listen to her lies, and takes what these poor folks offered to God, and spends it on herself, and growing "her ministry" which is a business, not a ministry of God's Grace.
If you take the testimony of any of those prosperity teachers, you will find that this doctrine is used as an excuse for them to amass wealth as preachers. Creflo Dollar, TD Jakes, Paula White, Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, Fred Price, Kenneth Copland, Robert Tilton, Eddie Long, Paul Crouch, etc...
It is sweet to the ears, but poison to the soul.
Make the distinction between having faith in God's provision,
and thinking that the wealth of Abraham is ours for the taking.
We are to take up our cross, and follow Christ,
Not take off in our jets, and follow Christ.
Abundant life is real! And money and health has nothing to do with it.
Our JOY is in the Lord, not in our circumstances, or our finances, or our health.
I was in true financial hardship by the standards of this culture.
But God provided for me and my family, and gave us many blessings.
When we faced an issue, or a bill, or car trouble, or a shortage of anything,
We brought it before the Father, and He provided a way.
This is the promise He gave to us, and we can surely cling to it: that He WILL provide for our needs.
The issue is that Joyce Meyers claims that her private jet and mansions are because of her doctrine, and that God blesses her with these things because she is powerfully full of faith.
Her jet and mansions are ill-gotten gains!
She takes from the suckers who listen to her lies, and takes what these poor folks offered to God, and spends it on herself, and growing "her ministry" which is a business, not a ministry of God's Grace.
If you take the testimony of any of those prosperity teachers, you will find that this doctrine is used as an excuse for them to amass wealth as preachers. Creflo Dollar, TD Jakes, Paula White, Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, Fred Price, Kenneth Copland, Robert Tilton, Eddie Long, Paul Crouch, etc...
It is sweet to the ears, but poison to the soul.
Make the distinction between having faith in God's provision,
and thinking that the wealth of Abraham is ours for the taking.
We are to take up our cross, and follow Christ,
Not take off in our jets, and follow Christ.
Abundant life is real! And money and health has nothing to do with it.
Our JOY is in the Lord, not in our circumstances, or our finances, or our health.
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L
There are so many exegetical and hermeneutical errors in this OP, it is hard to know where to start.
Wow, you sure got right into it well enough Angela. I felt the anger and pain in your post and with that in mind I will seek to be as loving as the Lord gives me ability.
1. Pulling verses out of context. I'm not going to deal with that, since there are only a few references to where things are in the Bible, showing an appalling Biblical illiteracy on the part of the OP.
I am considering my Biblical references could not have been that appalling as it gave you pause to even consider commenting on my "illiteracy"
2. Starting with a premise, rather than with the Bible. That goes back to #1, where you have to pull the verses out of context, in order to prove your point, which is completely bogus.
I began this thread with an idea and then began to share the Bible verses to back up where I got the idea. As far as pulling verses out of context that is yet another opinion. Of which I acknowledge you have a right to your opinion but you do not give me the same Christian grace.
3. Shoving a million verses at us to prove a dubious point, rather than using them to explain what you are saying. It may be the Word of God, but it is very wrongly handled.
Again, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. As I read your words I am compelled to comment how sorry I am that you have been so hurt.
The ignorance of the WHOLE Bible is appalling in the Word Faith movement. It is a "me" gospel, rather than a "God" gospel. It is about getting all you want from God, rather than giving your all to God.
Angela, despite what you have been through and are going through, you cannot nor can the others here make a judgment call on my life and whether I am giving my all to God or not. (?)
It is a movement that is totally out of touch with reality, and it is insulting and harmful to many people. I was never hurt more in my life that when two Word Faith friends told me I was hindering God because I was not healed of debilitating Rheumatoid Arthritis. In fact, one of those two got cancer, and refused treatment, and despite being an ordained Kenneth Copeland pastor, believing in faith for healing, she died 10 months later, when the cancer took over her entire body. So much for Word Faith!
As I have typed out before, it is not my job (or yours) to question God's dealings with other believers who have been healed or have not been healed. I am sorry you are dealing with the pain and illness you have. I am also sorry for your friends and the things they have experienced. I cannot possibly know the circumstances of someones faith walk or the plans God has for another brother or sister. I have never made such a claim. Why do you feel you can make such a claim for me and those who have experienced healing and are walking by faith. I agree, it doesn't make sense when we suffer and when we see others suffer.
Further, my journey is that God has changed and transformed me, BECAUSE I am sick! God says in his Word, that he will be with us, and he will change us through suffering and pain.
I don't know you personally Angela, I do not dispute what you are learning from your walk with Jesus. I have been sick and God has made me well. My story is different than yours but not any less true. I went through suffering and am to the other side and still moving forward in the same healing He has been showing me.
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by name, you are mine.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you;
when you walk through fire you shall not be burned,
and the flame shall not consume you." Isa. 43:1b-2
Here is a verse God gave me, and fulfilled when I went through a time of terrible suffering:
"Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, [SUP]4 [/SUP]and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5
I too hold to those verses and have found much comfort from them and can attest to the promises being true in them for my own life as well.
The fact is, everyone is suffering in one way or another! But we find joy and peace through our relationship with Christ, not through being a greedy child who demands God heal or make them rich. The US and Canada are littered with people who have had their life savings stolen from them by Health and Wealth and Prosperity teachers. I've met them in Seminary, in my church, as they have had to go back and rethink their entire theology about God, and how evil the Word Faith movement is.
I cannot speak for people you know but I have never demanded anything from the Lord like a greedy child and or to make me rich as you have posted here and others also have accused me of. This is positively wrong Angela since you do not know me. You know of your experiences but you do not know of mine. I have not been to seminary like you but God didn't say that was a qualification for His love and direction in my life. I have not had my money stolen and my life has not been made desolent. I have been blessed. I don't understand it but it is what God has done for me. And I will continue to trust my Father to keep on taking care of me regardless of this worlds horrors. Psalm 91 is a chapter of promises that I cling to and encourage you to do the same Angela.
I have heard of people healed and lived to tell about it strewn all over the U.S. and far beyond our borders into many other countries. Again, your experiences and knowledge are not over or better or more valuable than mine in the eyes of God.
I am a chaplain in long term care. The fact is, everyone dies sooner or later. If you are lucky enough to live a long time, you will likely contract some degenerative or genetic illness, and need the care of a facility for the ill. I teach Bible studies, and we studied suffering and depression, and those people taught me so much about faith, about God's love and care for them, and leading them in the paths of righteousness, in spite of terrible sicknesses and illnesses.
I stress to myself how inspite of the world of death and illness all around me I will cling to the promises in the Bible and not the dier facts of what the world has to offer. Psalm 91:14 Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore will I deliver him; I will set him on high, becaue he KNOWS and understands My name (has a personal knowledge of MY mercy, love and kindness---trusts and relies on Me, knowing I will never forsake him no never.
Nothing you say or are going through Angela or any of the other good Christians who are going through their trials will deter me from trusting God over you and their experiences.
vs.15 He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.
vs.16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him My salvation
I never considered wanting a long life but for some reason He says its a good thing so I will take it from His good hand. When I see death and illness all around me. When I read statistics like you have typed above., I will not fear or doubt He will do as He says. That is my personal walk with Him and no one regardless of the sufferings they are going through can cause me to desire to walk someone elses faith walk.
I will close with the admonition that the Word Faith movement is evil, and from the pit of hell. God never promised us a perfect life (see Job!) He is a perfect God, who will see us through the storms and trials of life. I will address the verses you pulled out of context in 2 Cor. 4, in a later post.
This is written at the end of Paul's life, and he is realizing that this life is not all we have. He has suffered terribly, but he still gives the glory to God.
"But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. [SUP]8 [/SUP]We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair;[SUP]9 [/SUP]persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; [SUP]10 [/SUP]always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. [SUP]12 [/SUP]So death is at work in us, but life in you." 2 Cor. 4:7-12
It cannot be denied we will go through seasons in our lives where we will suffer. We will see and know people who are suffering and who have died. There are seasons for us here on earth. But again I go to the Scripture promises Isaiah 53:4-5
Surely He has borne our griefs sicknesses, weaknesses and distressses and carried our sorrows and pains of punishement., yet we ignorantly considered Him stricken, smitten and afflicted by God as if with leprosy.
But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our guilt and iniquities; the chastisement needful to obtain peace and well being for us was upon Him, and with the stripes that wounded Him we are healed and made whole.
It is up to you Angela and it is up to me to take that to mean in the spiritual realm ONLY or not. I have been convicted to change my mind on the meaning of these verses and that is my right as a blood bought daughter of the King. I would not dare to speak for you yet you have no problem speaking for me on how these verses should be taken.
What is being renewed? Our body, or our spirit??
"So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, [SUP]18 [/SUP]as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal." 2 Cor. 4:16-18
I believe it is essencial to look to those things that are NOT seen and take our eyes off of the hoplessness of this present age. I see how we will always be hearing people pronouce sin, sickness, poverty and death over us. We will keep hearing people tell us that we are unclean undeserving, poor, weak, and that is only natural that we grow old and die...just like you have pronounced Angela.
But God, I believe He is waiting to hear us - His royal priesthood - to pronounce His people Clean.
And it our duty to be those priests with the authority He has given us to pronounce good things instead of evil things.
When I watch one of my clients die, I am not left hopeless any longer. I have also taken hold of the promises that He put me in these situations for a reason and does not want me to fear but to walk in this life with a boldness. That is my choice. And I will continue to do so regardless of the outward appearences. I have tasted and seen that the Lord is good and that He has not only has saved me and secured for me a home in heaven, but He also promises to be with me and admonishes me not to fear but to walk in liberty while here on this sad earth. To be salt and light. To take the abundant life He freely gives and I have taken hold of it by faith.
It is pretty obvious that this world is not what we were created for. We are WASTING AWAY in our bodies, but we look to the promise of the hope of eternity with Christ!
As for Hebrews 11:1, maybe you need to read the whole chapter!!
"who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,[SUP]34 [/SUP]quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.[SUP]35 [/SUP]Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life.[SUP]36 [/SUP]Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment.[SUP]37 [/SUP]They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword.They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated—[SUP]38 [/SUP]of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.[SUP]39 [/SUP]And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, [SUP]40 [/SUP]since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect." Hebrews 11:33-39
[SUP] "[/SUP]And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised!"
This is the real truth - we may never receive what was promised, but one day, as a community, not individuals, we will be with Jesus Christ. That is my hope, and my peace and my joy!
My suggestion is for the OP to stop reading Word Faith propaganda, and stop watching youtube videos. Instead, she needs to sit down and read the Bible, over and over and over. God will speak to you through his Word. And when tribulations, sickness or poverty come upon you, you will be able to stand, as Eph. 6 so clearly says, because you will be relying on God, not some twisted interpretation of the Bible by men out for their own gain, and their own fame.
Not sure what else I can say to you Angela. I do not share your interpretation of these Bible verses. I have experienced peace since I began to believe. I have experienced healing and a deep sense of His hand with me each day. If you find fault with that than I am truly sorry.
Wow, you sure got right into it well enough Angela. I felt the anger and pain in your post and with that in mind I will seek to be as loving as the Lord gives me ability.
1. Pulling verses out of context. I'm not going to deal with that, since there are only a few references to where things are in the Bible, showing an appalling Biblical illiteracy on the part of the OP.
I am considering my Biblical references could not have been that appalling as it gave you pause to even consider commenting on my "illiteracy"
2. Starting with a premise, rather than with the Bible. That goes back to #1, where you have to pull the verses out of context, in order to prove your point, which is completely bogus.
I began this thread with an idea and then began to share the Bible verses to back up where I got the idea. As far as pulling verses out of context that is yet another opinion. Of which I acknowledge you have a right to your opinion but you do not give me the same Christian grace.
3. Shoving a million verses at us to prove a dubious point, rather than using them to explain what you are saying. It may be the Word of God, but it is very wrongly handled.
Again, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. As I read your words I am compelled to comment how sorry I am that you have been so hurt.
The ignorance of the WHOLE Bible is appalling in the Word Faith movement. It is a "me" gospel, rather than a "God" gospel. It is about getting all you want from God, rather than giving your all to God.
Angela, despite what you have been through and are going through, you cannot nor can the others here make a judgment call on my life and whether I am giving my all to God or not. (?)
It is a movement that is totally out of touch with reality, and it is insulting and harmful to many people. I was never hurt more in my life that when two Word Faith friends told me I was hindering God because I was not healed of debilitating Rheumatoid Arthritis. In fact, one of those two got cancer, and refused treatment, and despite being an ordained Kenneth Copeland pastor, believing in faith for healing, she died 10 months later, when the cancer took over her entire body. So much for Word Faith!
As I have typed out before, it is not my job (or yours) to question God's dealings with other believers who have been healed or have not been healed. I am sorry you are dealing with the pain and illness you have. I am also sorry for your friends and the things they have experienced. I cannot possibly know the circumstances of someones faith walk or the plans God has for another brother or sister. I have never made such a claim. Why do you feel you can make such a claim for me and those who have experienced healing and are walking by faith. I agree, it doesn't make sense when we suffer and when we see others suffer.
Further, my journey is that God has changed and transformed me, BECAUSE I am sick! God says in his Word, that he will be with us, and he will change us through suffering and pain.
I don't know you personally Angela, I do not dispute what you are learning from your walk with Jesus. I have been sick and God has made me well. My story is different than yours but not any less true. I went through suffering and am to the other side and still moving forward in the same healing He has been showing me.
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by name, you are mine.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you;
when you walk through fire you shall not be burned,
and the flame shall not consume you." Isa. 43:1b-2
Here is a verse God gave me, and fulfilled when I went through a time of terrible suffering:
"Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, [SUP]4 [/SUP]and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5
I too hold to those verses and have found much comfort from them and can attest to the promises being true in them for my own life as well.
The fact is, everyone is suffering in one way or another! But we find joy and peace through our relationship with Christ, not through being a greedy child who demands God heal or make them rich. The US and Canada are littered with people who have had their life savings stolen from them by Health and Wealth and Prosperity teachers. I've met them in Seminary, in my church, as they have had to go back and rethink their entire theology about God, and how evil the Word Faith movement is.
I cannot speak for people you know but I have never demanded anything from the Lord like a greedy child and or to make me rich as you have posted here and others also have accused me of. This is positively wrong Angela since you do not know me. You know of your experiences but you do not know of mine. I have not been to seminary like you but God didn't say that was a qualification for His love and direction in my life. I have not had my money stolen and my life has not been made desolent. I have been blessed. I don't understand it but it is what God has done for me. And I will continue to trust my Father to keep on taking care of me regardless of this worlds horrors. Psalm 91 is a chapter of promises that I cling to and encourage you to do the same Angela.
I have heard of people healed and lived to tell about it strewn all over the U.S. and far beyond our borders into many other countries. Again, your experiences and knowledge are not over or better or more valuable than mine in the eyes of God.
I am a chaplain in long term care. The fact is, everyone dies sooner or later. If you are lucky enough to live a long time, you will likely contract some degenerative or genetic illness, and need the care of a facility for the ill. I teach Bible studies, and we studied suffering and depression, and those people taught me so much about faith, about God's love and care for them, and leading them in the paths of righteousness, in spite of terrible sicknesses and illnesses.
I stress to myself how inspite of the world of death and illness all around me I will cling to the promises in the Bible and not the dier facts of what the world has to offer. Psalm 91:14 Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore will I deliver him; I will set him on high, becaue he KNOWS and understands My name (has a personal knowledge of MY mercy, love and kindness---trusts and relies on Me, knowing I will never forsake him no never.
Nothing you say or are going through Angela or any of the other good Christians who are going through their trials will deter me from trusting God over you and their experiences.
vs.15 He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.
vs.16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him My salvation
I never considered wanting a long life but for some reason He says its a good thing so I will take it from His good hand. When I see death and illness all around me. When I read statistics like you have typed above., I will not fear or doubt He will do as He says. That is my personal walk with Him and no one regardless of the sufferings they are going through can cause me to desire to walk someone elses faith walk.
I will close with the admonition that the Word Faith movement is evil, and from the pit of hell. God never promised us a perfect life (see Job!) He is a perfect God, who will see us through the storms and trials of life. I will address the verses you pulled out of context in 2 Cor. 4, in a later post.
This is written at the end of Paul's life, and he is realizing that this life is not all we have. He has suffered terribly, but he still gives the glory to God.
"But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. [SUP]8 [/SUP]We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair;[SUP]9 [/SUP]persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; [SUP]10 [/SUP]always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. [SUP]12 [/SUP]So death is at work in us, but life in you." 2 Cor. 4:7-12
It cannot be denied we will go through seasons in our lives where we will suffer. We will see and know people who are suffering and who have died. There are seasons for us here on earth. But again I go to the Scripture promises Isaiah 53:4-5
Surely He has borne our griefs sicknesses, weaknesses and distressses and carried our sorrows and pains of punishement., yet we ignorantly considered Him stricken, smitten and afflicted by God as if with leprosy.
But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our guilt and iniquities; the chastisement needful to obtain peace and well being for us was upon Him, and with the stripes that wounded Him we are healed and made whole.
It is up to you Angela and it is up to me to take that to mean in the spiritual realm ONLY or not. I have been convicted to change my mind on the meaning of these verses and that is my right as a blood bought daughter of the King. I would not dare to speak for you yet you have no problem speaking for me on how these verses should be taken.
What is being renewed? Our body, or our spirit??
"So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, [SUP]18 [/SUP]as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal." 2 Cor. 4:16-18
I believe it is essencial to look to those things that are NOT seen and take our eyes off of the hoplessness of this present age. I see how we will always be hearing people pronouce sin, sickness, poverty and death over us. We will keep hearing people tell us that we are unclean undeserving, poor, weak, and that is only natural that we grow old and die...just like you have pronounced Angela.
But God, I believe He is waiting to hear us - His royal priesthood - to pronounce His people Clean.
And it our duty to be those priests with the authority He has given us to pronounce good things instead of evil things.
When I watch one of my clients die, I am not left hopeless any longer. I have also taken hold of the promises that He put me in these situations for a reason and does not want me to fear but to walk in this life with a boldness. That is my choice. And I will continue to do so regardless of the outward appearences. I have tasted and seen that the Lord is good and that He has not only has saved me and secured for me a home in heaven, but He also promises to be with me and admonishes me not to fear but to walk in liberty while here on this sad earth. To be salt and light. To take the abundant life He freely gives and I have taken hold of it by faith.
It is pretty obvious that this world is not what we were created for. We are WASTING AWAY in our bodies, but we look to the promise of the hope of eternity with Christ!
As for Hebrews 11:1, maybe you need to read the whole chapter!!
"who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,[SUP]34 [/SUP]quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.[SUP]35 [/SUP]Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life.[SUP]36 [/SUP]Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment.[SUP]37 [/SUP]They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword.They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated—[SUP]38 [/SUP]of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.[SUP]39 [/SUP]And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, [SUP]40 [/SUP]since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect." Hebrews 11:33-39
[SUP] "[/SUP]And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised!"
This is the real truth - we may never receive what was promised, but one day, as a community, not individuals, we will be with Jesus Christ. That is my hope, and my peace and my joy!
My suggestion is for the OP to stop reading Word Faith propaganda, and stop watching youtube videos. Instead, she needs to sit down and read the Bible, over and over and over. God will speak to you through his Word. And when tribulations, sickness or poverty come upon you, you will be able to stand, as Eph. 6 so clearly says, because you will be relying on God, not some twisted interpretation of the Bible by men out for their own gain, and their own fame.
Not sure what else I can say to you Angela. I do not share your interpretation of these Bible verses. I have experienced peace since I began to believe. I have experienced healing and a deep sense of His hand with me each day. If you find fault with that than I am truly sorry.
There are some full gospel denominations that are full of errors..... I'm a Pentecostal, a full gospel myself, I should know.
Then again, which denomination doesn't have a few within their ranks that aren't full of errors?
The only difference is that most of ours are seen on TV.
That doesn't shame me because I'm not one of them. They came out from us, but they are not of us. They are counterfeits.
Then again, which denomination doesn't have a few within their ranks that aren't full of errors?
The only difference is that most of ours are seen on TV.
That doesn't shame me because I'm not one of them. They came out from us, but they are not of us. They are counterfeits.
Shoot down the eagle and credit power to the man above God's authority? What with knocking another's faith down anyway? What sport is in that? Why can't anyone stand to see another person happy and prosperous? No body is forcing anyone to hand over their money to anyone except the government. The advice is, after all, "Don't give to him, he's a fake. Give here." Should I let this guy spend my money or the other??! If a man prospers because of the word of God, what, is he to say, "This doesn't look good that I have to make accommodation for 10000 who come to hear it?"
Hate who you will, but let me love who I will. I'm just glad they don't listen to all the flack they get and stop preaching because of it.
Hate who you will, but let me love who I will. I'm just glad they don't listen to all the flack they get and stop preaching because of it.
To the Op,
God no doubt has done many good things for you..... and for that I am glad. He is faithful that promised.
But please believe me, these things didn't happen to you because of the prosperity gospel. It is counterfeit & I hope to prove this to you.
For instance, how many times in the NT did Paul speak about raising offerings for the poor church at Jerusalem? Of all places, where the 12 Apostles resided, you would think with such spiritual authority at one place it would be the most prosperous of all. Yet it was the poorest. What's wrong with this picture? It doesn't add up.
Now, let's get more current. Do you know that every big-name preacher of the prosperity/ word of faith movement have several things in common?
1. They are all rich. Filthy rich..... off the support of mostly poor people. Again, doesn't add up.
2. None of them will show their financial statements to the IRS or anyone else. Are they ashamed of their "blessings"? Of course, there are two real reasons why:
a. misappropriation of funds to live a lavish lifestyle.
b. They themselves are not givers, & their lack of giving would expose them for who they are.
3. Their version of the gospel doesn't teach giving away their riches to the rest of the church, so that all would be prosperous. Whatever happened to bearing one another's burdens & fulfilling the law of Christ? Whatever happened to preferring our brother before ourselves? Whatever happened to selling our things that we may have all things common (equal)? How many poor saints have they reached down & pulled out of poverty with their millions? These should be the biggest givers by example, yet no one knows what they do with their money.
4. Prosperity preachers don't honor the Word of God.
Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
They have enough money between them to finance a third world country, yet they sell their sermons, their books, & charge for conferences when Jesus told us to give freely of our gifts, talents, & ministries. How much more the gospel could be spread if these rich televangelists would personally finance other evangelists & missionaries to go throughout the world & preach the gospel?
The prosperity gospel has only the fruit of greed & self righteousness.
But.... there is true prosperity for the christian. Paul teaches that:
Philippians 4:10-11But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity.11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
1 Timothy 6:6-12King James Version (KJV)
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. 9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
Jesus taught:
Matthew 6:20-2120 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Matthew 19:21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
How was Jesus financially prosperous? He didn't own a home, had no place to sleep, & depended on the support of His followers.
The difference between the gospel of Christ & the prosperity gospel is that Jesus is building a spiritual kingdom while prosperity preachers build a carnal empire.
God no doubt has done many good things for you..... and for that I am glad. He is faithful that promised.
But please believe me, these things didn't happen to you because of the prosperity gospel. It is counterfeit & I hope to prove this to you.
For instance, how many times in the NT did Paul speak about raising offerings for the poor church at Jerusalem? Of all places, where the 12 Apostles resided, you would think with such spiritual authority at one place it would be the most prosperous of all. Yet it was the poorest. What's wrong with this picture? It doesn't add up.
Now, let's get more current. Do you know that every big-name preacher of the prosperity/ word of faith movement have several things in common?
1. They are all rich. Filthy rich..... off the support of mostly poor people. Again, doesn't add up.
2. None of them will show their financial statements to the IRS or anyone else. Are they ashamed of their "blessings"? Of course, there are two real reasons why:
a. misappropriation of funds to live a lavish lifestyle.
b. They themselves are not givers, & their lack of giving would expose them for who they are.
3. Their version of the gospel doesn't teach giving away their riches to the rest of the church, so that all would be prosperous. Whatever happened to bearing one another's burdens & fulfilling the law of Christ? Whatever happened to preferring our brother before ourselves? Whatever happened to selling our things that we may have all things common (equal)? How many poor saints have they reached down & pulled out of poverty with their millions? These should be the biggest givers by example, yet no one knows what they do with their money.
4. Prosperity preachers don't honor the Word of God.
Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
They have enough money between them to finance a third world country, yet they sell their sermons, their books, & charge for conferences when Jesus told us to give freely of our gifts, talents, & ministries. How much more the gospel could be spread if these rich televangelists would personally finance other evangelists & missionaries to go throughout the world & preach the gospel?
The prosperity gospel has only the fruit of greed & self righteousness.
But.... there is true prosperity for the christian. Paul teaches that:
Philippians 4:10-11But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity.11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
1 Timothy 6:6-12King James Version (KJV)
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. 9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
Jesus taught:
Matthew 6:20-2120 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Matthew 19:21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
How was Jesus financially prosperous? He didn't own a home, had no place to sleep, & depended on the support of His followers.
The difference between the gospel of Christ & the prosperity gospel is that Jesus is building a spiritual kingdom while prosperity preachers build a carnal empire.
L
To the Op,
God no doubt has done many good things for you..... and for that I am glad. He is faithful that promised.
But please believe me, these things didn't happen to you because of the prosperity gospel. It is counterfeit & I hope to prove this to you.
Where was it said by 'me' that this happened because of the "prosperity gospel" My healing came and continues to come because of Jesus Christ.
For instance, how many times in the NT did Paul speak about raising offerings for the poor church at Jerusalem? Of all places, where the 12 Apostles resided, you would think with such spiritual authority at one place it would be the most prosperous of all. Yet it was the poorest. What's wrong with this picture? It doesn't add up.
Your ideas about this don't add up but that is not a problem I can fix for you. The church was just beginning to be set up as even it's leaders were confused as to what and how to relate with one another. Even Paul had to correct Peter, and Peter was with Jesus, walked with, slept with., walked on the water....yet Paul the apostle of grace to the gentiles who never slept and ate with Jesus like the original 12, yet he had to correct Peter and it was put in scriptures for all to see even to this day! Was it some sin of moral proportion? No, it was about eating with the gentiles and how Peter stopped eating with them and separated himself from them for fear of the religious folks in the group who still held on to the law.
This was allll new to the disciples. They had to learn to not follow the law anymore and to walk in the New Covenant. This was a major change at the time you can imagine.
I don't see that these men were dirt poor and lacked. I see that brothers and sisters had opportunity to meet their needs and did. God provided at all times. and used His people to do it as well as I'm sure other means we don't even know about. There was great persecution at the beginning of the church but God met their needs. This was a season in the church as it was being set up.
Now, let's get more current. Do you know that every big-name preacher of the prosperity/ word of faith movement have several things in common?
No but I'm seeing you think you know everything about them.
1. They are all rich. Filthy rich..... off the support of mostly poor people. Again, doesn't add up.
Neither you or any of the others who posted here know that every one of the Christians on tv and radio and internet are greedy and sucking off of "mostly all poor people". As a matter of fact wealthy people are major donators to many of these huge ministries that go all over the world and get on the tv., radio., computer.... spreading the Word of God to places - you my friend and I have not had the opportunity to do what they do. They have been used of God to get the Word of God out and to teach daily over the air waves. It does take money to get on tv and radio. To get materials out in order to minister to the crying dying world. To also get to the more influencial people in the world as well.
The unsaved don't get much good news from tv and radio and computer..,All they get is lies from the prince of the power of the air. Certainly they would NOT be getting God's Word streamed into their homes on a daily basis if God had not used these so called money sucking people as you call them.
Why should Christians of influence not also get on the tv etc... and win souls for God?? How much MORE should we be in support of fellow christians who have the where-with-all and creativity to preach to millions and in the face of great opposition?? God blesses many of them and protects many of them as they continue to trust in Him. Just take a gander at how these Christians have been blessed.
Those who got their eyes off of Jesus and began trusting in their riches and influence fell major big time. But I do not do what many of you in response to this thread do and that is pile all of us in one giant pile of 'UGLY' and dispose of anything we try to say or do because of the mislead and fallen ones.
2. None of them will show their financial statements to the IRS or anyone else. Are they ashamed of their "blessings"? Of course, there are two real reasons why:
you ask "are they ashamed of their blessings? then you answer "of course" and then you give the reasons LOL., must be something to be you!
a. misappropriation of funds to live a lavish lifestyle.
Again, here you are knowing something you have no way of knowing
b. They themselves are not givers, & their lack of giving would expose them for who they are. What???????? where do you get this inside info about them not being givers. I suppose you have seen their check book and know where allll their money goes? My goodness it's amazing you actually think you can say they themselves are not givers and lack of giving would expose them for who they are.... and of course YOU know who they are and what their heart motives are at all times. Must be something!
I sympathize with these pastors and teachers on tv and radio and internet because even on a tiny scale with someone like me you have totally misrepresented my beliefs and even dared to judge my heart motives! You have been doing the same with them for years. Why should anyone listen to you guys when you say you know things as facts when it's been proven time and time again you guys are speculating (if that) when you say ALL are the same. They are not.
You are so blinded by the money they have and that you don't, that you can't see the forest from the trees. Many of these organizations most certainly do have their financial info for the IRS or whatever govt they are under to see since it is the law. And if the world is going to go after anyone, it will be Christians and especially "rich" Christians. And especially Christians who are preaching the Bible and against sin.
3. Their version of the gospel doesn't teach giving away their riches to the rest of the church, so that all would be prosperous. Whatever happened to bearing one another's burdens & fulfilling the law of Christ? Whatever happened to preferring our brother before ourselves? Whatever happened to selling our things that we may have all things common (equal)? How many poor saints have they reached down & pulled out of poverty with their millions? These should be the biggest givers by example, yet no one knows what they do with their money.
That last statement you made is the only actual true thing you wrote.."no one knows what they do with their money" Or at least not you and those who condemn. We do not sell our things so that we may have all things in common.... that was in the book of Acts and it did not work. There is no instruction for us to be doing that in the Bible. We are under grace and we love because He first loved us. We give freely because Christ gave to us freely. Blessed to be a blessing is the term used in word of faith circles I'm learning
If you don't know where someones money is going why do you assume it isn't going to the poor and needy as well as to plant churches and other organizations that get the Word of God out to the masses. Do you think satalites all over the globe that were put there by Christians were done apart from the money and hiring of workers??? etc....
4. Prosperity preachers don't honor the Word of God.
Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Again, you do not know who has freely given and who has not.
They have enough money between them to finance a third world country, yet they sell their sermons, their books, & charge for conferences when Jesus told us to give freely of our gifts, talents, & ministries. How much more the gospel could be spread if these rich televangelists would personally finance other evangelists & missionaries to go throughout the world & preach the gospel?
Again, many of them have and are blessed for it. I'm sad that so many Christians can't see past their own understanding and livestyle as they do not deal with people on a world wide scale the way some of our Christian brothers and sisters do.
The prosperity gospel has only the fruit of greed & self righteousness.
Again, your idea of the "prosperity gospel" is not mine. I am one of the people who have been blessed but not the way you say I have been blessed. Why do you even think you know how I have been blessed? Let alone the tv radio preachers of good report....Fruit of greed and self righteousness.... yikes
But.... there is true prosperity for the christian. Paul teaches that:
Philippians 4:10-11But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity.11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
1 Timothy 6:6-12King James Version (KJV)
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. 9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
Jesus taught:
Matthew 6:20-2120 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Matthew 19:21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
How was Jesus financially prosperous? He didn't own a home, had no place to sleep, & depended on the support of His followers.
The difference between the gospel of Christ & the prosperity gospel is that Jesus is building a spiritual kingdom while prosperity preachers build a carnal empire.
God no doubt has done many good things for you..... and for that I am glad. He is faithful that promised.
But please believe me, these things didn't happen to you because of the prosperity gospel. It is counterfeit & I hope to prove this to you.
Where was it said by 'me' that this happened because of the "prosperity gospel" My healing came and continues to come because of Jesus Christ.
For instance, how many times in the NT did Paul speak about raising offerings for the poor church at Jerusalem? Of all places, where the 12 Apostles resided, you would think with such spiritual authority at one place it would be the most prosperous of all. Yet it was the poorest. What's wrong with this picture? It doesn't add up.
Your ideas about this don't add up but that is not a problem I can fix for you. The church was just beginning to be set up as even it's leaders were confused as to what and how to relate with one another. Even Paul had to correct Peter, and Peter was with Jesus, walked with, slept with., walked on the water....yet Paul the apostle of grace to the gentiles who never slept and ate with Jesus like the original 12, yet he had to correct Peter and it was put in scriptures for all to see even to this day! Was it some sin of moral proportion? No, it was about eating with the gentiles and how Peter stopped eating with them and separated himself from them for fear of the religious folks in the group who still held on to the law.
This was allll new to the disciples. They had to learn to not follow the law anymore and to walk in the New Covenant. This was a major change at the time you can imagine.
I don't see that these men were dirt poor and lacked. I see that brothers and sisters had opportunity to meet their needs and did. God provided at all times. and used His people to do it as well as I'm sure other means we don't even know about. There was great persecution at the beginning of the church but God met their needs. This was a season in the church as it was being set up.
Now, let's get more current. Do you know that every big-name preacher of the prosperity/ word of faith movement have several things in common?
No but I'm seeing you think you know everything about them.
1. They are all rich. Filthy rich..... off the support of mostly poor people. Again, doesn't add up.
Neither you or any of the others who posted here know that every one of the Christians on tv and radio and internet are greedy and sucking off of "mostly all poor people". As a matter of fact wealthy people are major donators to many of these huge ministries that go all over the world and get on the tv., radio., computer.... spreading the Word of God to places - you my friend and I have not had the opportunity to do what they do. They have been used of God to get the Word of God out and to teach daily over the air waves. It does take money to get on tv and radio. To get materials out in order to minister to the crying dying world. To also get to the more influencial people in the world as well.
The unsaved don't get much good news from tv and radio and computer..,All they get is lies from the prince of the power of the air. Certainly they would NOT be getting God's Word streamed into their homes on a daily basis if God had not used these so called money sucking people as you call them.
Why should Christians of influence not also get on the tv etc... and win souls for God?? How much MORE should we be in support of fellow christians who have the where-with-all and creativity to preach to millions and in the face of great opposition?? God blesses many of them and protects many of them as they continue to trust in Him. Just take a gander at how these Christians have been blessed.
Those who got their eyes off of Jesus and began trusting in their riches and influence fell major big time. But I do not do what many of you in response to this thread do and that is pile all of us in one giant pile of 'UGLY' and dispose of anything we try to say or do because of the mislead and fallen ones.
2. None of them will show their financial statements to the IRS or anyone else. Are they ashamed of their "blessings"? Of course, there are two real reasons why:
you ask "are they ashamed of their blessings? then you answer "of course"
and then you give the reasons LOL., must be something to be you!a. misappropriation of funds to live a lavish lifestyle.
Again, here you are knowing something you have no way of knowing
b. They themselves are not givers, & their lack of giving would expose them for who they are. What???????? where do you get this inside info about them not being givers. I suppose you have seen their check book and know where allll their money goes? My goodness it's amazing you actually think you can say they themselves are not givers and lack of giving would expose them for who they are.... and of course YOU know who they are and what their heart motives are at all times. Must be something!
I sympathize with these pastors and teachers on tv and radio and internet because even on a tiny scale with someone like me you have totally misrepresented my beliefs and even dared to judge my heart motives! You have been doing the same with them for years. Why should anyone listen to you guys when you say you know things as facts when it's been proven time and time again you guys are speculating (if that) when you say ALL are the same. They are not.
You are so blinded by the money they have and that you don't, that you can't see the forest from the trees. Many of these organizations most certainly do have their financial info for the IRS or whatever govt they are under to see since it is the law. And if the world is going to go after anyone, it will be Christians and especially "rich" Christians. And especially Christians who are preaching the Bible and against sin.
3. Their version of the gospel doesn't teach giving away their riches to the rest of the church, so that all would be prosperous. Whatever happened to bearing one another's burdens & fulfilling the law of Christ? Whatever happened to preferring our brother before ourselves? Whatever happened to selling our things that we may have all things common (equal)? How many poor saints have they reached down & pulled out of poverty with their millions? These should be the biggest givers by example, yet no one knows what they do with their money.
That last statement you made is the only actual true thing you wrote.."no one knows what they do with their money" Or at least not you and those who condemn. We do not sell our things so that we may have all things in common.... that was in the book of Acts and it did not work. There is no instruction for us to be doing that in the Bible. We are under grace and we love because He first loved us. We give freely because Christ gave to us freely. Blessed to be a blessing is the term used in word of faith circles I'm learning
If you don't know where someones money is going why do you assume it isn't going to the poor and needy as well as to plant churches and other organizations that get the Word of God out to the masses. Do you think satalites all over the globe that were put there by Christians were done apart from the money and hiring of workers??? etc....
4. Prosperity preachers don't honor the Word of God.
Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Again, you do not know who has freely given and who has not.
They have enough money between them to finance a third world country, yet they sell their sermons, their books, & charge for conferences when Jesus told us to give freely of our gifts, talents, & ministries. How much more the gospel could be spread if these rich televangelists would personally finance other evangelists & missionaries to go throughout the world & preach the gospel?
Again, many of them have and are blessed for it. I'm sad that so many Christians can't see past their own understanding and livestyle as they do not deal with people on a world wide scale the way some of our Christian brothers and sisters do.
The prosperity gospel has only the fruit of greed & self righteousness.
Again, your idea of the "prosperity gospel" is not mine. I am one of the people who have been blessed but not the way you say I have been blessed. Why do you even think you know how I have been blessed? Let alone the tv radio preachers of good report....Fruit of greed and self righteousness.... yikes
But.... there is true prosperity for the christian. Paul teaches that:
Philippians 4:10-11But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity.11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
1 Timothy 6:6-12King James Version (KJV)
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. 9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
Jesus taught:
Matthew 6:20-2120 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Matthew 19:21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
How was Jesus financially prosperous? He didn't own a home, had no place to sleep, & depended on the support of His followers.
The difference between the gospel of Christ & the prosperity gospel is that Jesus is building a spiritual kingdom while prosperity preachers build a carnal empire.
The rest of these verses just don't apply in the negative way you are presenting them here.
But it is comforting to see that dispite Christians who do not understand, God's word is going out in power and authority over the air waves and people are being saved all the time. Now they are getting into China. No thanks to negative Christians who are too centered on money to see that God is the One Who owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He just keeps giving and giving and He allows us to be a part of it.
The verse is from Ecclesiastes. Please read through that book.
It is a book from the perspective of an unbeliever. Go ahead and read that passage to yourself, and see if I am right.
It goes through the 7 main philosophies of man, mostly written from the perspectives of humanism and fatalism.
I am not knocking down anyone's faith, but instead building you up. If you are being held back by false teachers, then hopefully a little truth will set you free.
I desire very much to see all of you to be happy and prosperous. I just also wish you had a heart like mine, and understood true prosperity, and hated the false, worldly version.
There are many good Bible teaching preachers who have large congregations.
Those people that I mentioned are not Bible preachers, but are thieves and false prophets. Do not listen to them.
This is not about size of ministry, but about what is being preached.
Be sure to understand that God is "not a tame lion". He owes us nothing. We are to humble ourselves before Him, not make demands.
You think I am negative... Okay.... Not sure why you think that. You assume that I am unhappy because I know I don't belong to this world? Don't be deceived. The joy I have is far beyond what money has ever given anyone.
I have seen poverty, and I am now in a place of good finance. I have been healthy, and I have had serious ailments.
The joy of the Lord does not come and go with money or health. It is deep and true, and not swayed by circumstances.
Seek that joy.
It is a book from the perspective of an unbeliever. Go ahead and read that passage to yourself, and see if I am right.
It goes through the 7 main philosophies of man, mostly written from the perspectives of humanism and fatalism.
I am not knocking down anyone's faith, but instead building you up. If you are being held back by false teachers, then hopefully a little truth will set you free.
I desire very much to see all of you to be happy and prosperous. I just also wish you had a heart like mine, and understood true prosperity, and hated the false, worldly version.
There are many good Bible teaching preachers who have large congregations.
Those people that I mentioned are not Bible preachers, but are thieves and false prophets. Do not listen to them.
This is not about size of ministry, but about what is being preached.
Be sure to understand that God is "not a tame lion". He owes us nothing. We are to humble ourselves before Him, not make demands.
You think I am negative... Okay.... Not sure why you think that. You assume that I am unhappy because I know I don't belong to this world? Don't be deceived. The joy I have is far beyond what money has ever given anyone.
I have seen poverty, and I am now in a place of good finance. I have been healthy, and I have had serious ailments.
The joy of the Lord does not come and go with money or health. It is deep and true, and not swayed by circumstances.
Seek that joy.
"Seek he first the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you."
What are we to seek? His Kingdom and righteousness.
Kennedy had a good quote:
It's not what [the Kingdom] can do for you,
But what you can do for [the Kingdom].
These false teachers tell us to speak healing and prosperity into our lives, but never tell us to speak the Gospel into our lives. Why?
Why do they say it is good to seek healing and prosperity? Do they not know that these things shall be added unto those who seek the Kingdom? Do they not know that His Kingdom is not of this world?
They are enemies of the Gospel, and slaves to this world.
The devil pays well in this life, but God will have His justice on the Last Day.
What are we to seek? His Kingdom and righteousness.
Kennedy had a good quote:
It's not what [the Kingdom] can do for you,
But what you can do for [the Kingdom].
These false teachers tell us to speak healing and prosperity into our lives, but never tell us to speak the Gospel into our lives. Why?
Why do they say it is good to seek healing and prosperity? Do they not know that these things shall be added unto those who seek the Kingdom? Do they not know that His Kingdom is not of this world?
They are enemies of the Gospel, and slaves to this world.
The devil pays well in this life, but God will have His justice on the Last Day.
anyone know how is the mormon doctrine of 'prosperity' different from 'evangelical prosperity' ?
"If the Latter-day Saints will walk up to their privileges, and exercise faith in the name of Jesus Christ, and live in the enjoyment of the fulness of the Holy Ghost constantly day by day, there is nothing on the face of the earth that they could ask for, that would not be given to them. The Lord is waiting to be very gracious unto this people, and to pour out upon them riches, honor, glory and power, even that they may possess all things according to the promises he has made through his Apostles and Prophets"
"If the Latter-day Saints will walk up to their privileges, and exercise faith in the name of Jesus Christ, and live in the enjoyment of the fulness of the Holy Ghost constantly day by day, there is nothing on the face of the earth that they could ask for, that would not be given to them. The Lord is waiting to be very gracious unto this people, and to pour out upon them riches, honor, glory and power, even that they may possess all things according to the promises he has made through his Apostles and Prophets"
- Brigham Young