Might also consider that when a child is born, a woman's water breaks first..........just saying 
Have to consider all options right?
Have to consider all options right?
Works Salvation
- Thread starter Metternich
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Some would argue that the natural sense of the passage clearly parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (3:4) and with "flesh" (3:6). Simply stated, according to that interpretation, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water") and the second is Spirit.
Amniotic fluid is not water, I promise. They are both liquids but that is where the similarities end. Natural childbirth is never mentioned in such a way in the Bible, the term used is "born of woman". If your words:
are true (amniotic fluid) then those who die before birth (abortion/stillborn) are without hope.
You have to first be physically born to be saved? I doubt we need to be told that. Do you really believe this notion holds water?
You have to first be physically born to be saved? I doubt we need to be told that. Do you really believe this notion holds water?
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I just fundamentally disagree with your religious doctrines and traditions EG.
Your preaching that we have no say in our salvation goes against just about the entire Bible.
Jesus said, before becoming a man, in Deut.
Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (Jesus) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Are we not to be part of the covenant, the agreement Jesus had with Abraham??
Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Didn't Jesus preach this same Gospel when He came to earth as a man?
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, (Like Abraham)he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Isn't this the same agreement Jesus had with Abraham? John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
So isn't it true that Jesus manifested Himself to Abraham "BECAUSE" Abraham "choose life"? If you don't believe Abraham chose life then you have a fundamental disagreement with Jesus.
So you mostly quote Paul to preach against our participation in our Salvation.
Eph. 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
So we know Abraham "chose" to do the "Works of the Lord", Yes? Not His own works, not his own ideas, or his families religious traditions he was born into, but he chose the "Good Works" of Jesus that He prepared from the beginning for all mankind to walk in. "4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
I understand we have already sinned, and that our penalty is death, as it was for Abraham. But the agreement Jesus had with Abraham included the gift of Grace, forgiveness. Abraham knew this because Jesus manifested Himself to Abraham, "BECAUSE" Abraham kept His Commandments.
Gen. 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
But Sodom didn't receive this deal? Why? Because they didn't choose life? They chose something else over the Word's and Instructions of Jesus. Another god.
It is the same today because Jesus doesn't change. If you believe He Changes then you have a fundamental disagreement with the Christ.
All this to say we do participate in our Salvation, at least according to Jesus. We "WORK" with God/Jesus to secure this Salvation. Not by the Levitical Priesthood "sacrificial "works of the Law" that Abraham didn't have. But by the "Law of faith" Jesus created from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them, as Abraham did.
1 Cor. 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
Jesus created the choice, I chose Jesus, like Abraham.
2 Cor. 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
The choice of life is there. It is a free gift. But we have to make the choice.
1 Cor. 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
2Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good (From God)or bad.(From our own mind)
Phil. 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; (The Choice in Duet. 30) that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
Not mine own pleasure, my own words, my own religious traditions, "lest I should boast", but in the "works of the Lord" that Abraham was blessed for obeying.
I could go on and on because every verse in the entire Bible is related to either the choice of death or the choice of life.
We all have "Works". The question is, are they from God or man. Grace is given to all, but most will reject it and choose death because when you get right down to it, they don't believe in the God of Abraham.
Your preaching that we have no say in our salvation goes against just about the entire Bible.
Jesus said, before becoming a man, in Deut.
Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (Jesus) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Are we not to be part of the covenant, the agreement Jesus had with Abraham??
Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Didn't Jesus preach this same Gospel when He came to earth as a man?
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, (Like Abraham)he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Isn't this the same agreement Jesus had with Abraham? John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
So isn't it true that Jesus manifested Himself to Abraham "BECAUSE" Abraham "choose life"? If you don't believe Abraham chose life then you have a fundamental disagreement with Jesus.
So you mostly quote Paul to preach against our participation in our Salvation.
Eph. 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
So we know Abraham "chose" to do the "Works of the Lord", Yes? Not His own works, not his own ideas, or his families religious traditions he was born into, but he chose the "Good Works" of Jesus that He prepared from the beginning for all mankind to walk in. "4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
I understand we have already sinned, and that our penalty is death, as it was for Abraham. But the agreement Jesus had with Abraham included the gift of Grace, forgiveness. Abraham knew this because Jesus manifested Himself to Abraham, "BECAUSE" Abraham kept His Commandments.
Gen. 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
But Sodom didn't receive this deal? Why? Because they didn't choose life? They chose something else over the Word's and Instructions of Jesus. Another god.
It is the same today because Jesus doesn't change. If you believe He Changes then you have a fundamental disagreement with the Christ.
All this to say we do participate in our Salvation, at least according to Jesus. We "WORK" with God/Jesus to secure this Salvation. Not by the Levitical Priesthood "sacrificial "works of the Law" that Abraham didn't have. But by the "Law of faith" Jesus created from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them, as Abraham did.
1 Cor. 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
Jesus created the choice, I chose Jesus, like Abraham.
2 Cor. 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
The choice of life is there. It is a free gift. But we have to make the choice.
1 Cor. 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
2Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good (From God)or bad.(From our own mind)
Phil. 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; (The Choice in Duet. 30) that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
Not mine own pleasure, my own words, my own religious traditions, "lest I should boast", but in the "works of the Lord" that Abraham was blessed for obeying.
I could go on and on because every verse in the entire Bible is related to either the choice of death or the choice of life.
We all have "Works". The question is, are they from God or man. Grace is given to all, but most will reject it and choose death because when you get right down to it, they don't believe in the God of Abraham.
E
This is the perfect defenition of a works based theology.
It rejects the fact that God sent his son to save him, because he was unable to save himself (thus he shows lack of repentnance) and instead of working like all of Gods children, because we
1. Are grateful for God for giving us the opportunity to obey him
2. Trust he knows best, proven by the fact every time we try to do it on our own, we fail or fall
3. Are trying to live out our new creation, and not our old self (eph 2: 10)
he is working to EARN MAINTAIN, or gain salvation.
E
ROFL, The tax collector? No wait, gravity
[video=youtube;of0N_--eQlg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of0N_--eQlg[/video]
Since you heard God tell you he did then I guess there is no reason asking where you read that in the scriptures cause it ain't.
[video=youtube;of0N_--eQlg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of0N_--eQlg[/video]
Since you heard God tell you he did then I guess there is no reason asking where you read that in the scriptures cause it ain't.
Who does everyone here from God about? The word, Who inspirted the word? The HS, Who is sent to convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment, God the Holy Spirit.
You never asked HOW the HS did this, you asked who. And I answered you. You disagree with me??
Even if it is the HS bringing another person into our lives and talking to us, The HS still has to do the conviction, help us undertstand the truth, and bring the truth to light.
You want me to give credit to man? No thank you
I just posted a study EG, which suggests, in part, that I have a part in my own Salvation. As is your custom, you ignored the study, made some foolish and dishonest statement as you often do. I didn't forget the fact that Jesus came to save, He came to save Abraham as well. My hope is maybe some others will read and comment on the actual post, instead of just furthering their own religious traditions.
I disagree fundamentally with your religion because you rely on religious men for your knowledge rather than that which Jesus instructed. At least that is how your preaching comes off to me.
I disagree fundamentally with your religion because you rely on religious men for your knowledge rather than that which Jesus instructed. At least that is how your preaching comes off to me.
ROFL, The tax collector? No wait, gravity
[video=youtube;of0N_--eQlg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of0N_--eQlg[/video]
Since you heard God tell you he did then I guess there is no reason asking where you read that in the scriptures cause it ain't.
[video=youtube;of0N_--eQlg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of0N_--eQlg[/video]
Since you heard God tell you he did then I guess there is no reason asking where you read that in the scriptures cause it ain't.
Can you clarify for me please as I'm not sure what your getting at.
D
No, you didn't really post a study. A study means just that, "study" was involved in coming up with the idea of the study.
What you really posted was a bunch of verses yanked out of their place in the Bible, then you calling it "Jesus said," (unless you think Joshua was Jesus in one of many incarnations), to prove your point.
That's not study. That's bait-and-switch. That's prove-a-point-at-any-cost. AND, it wasn't from the word of God, it was from "you rely on religious men for your knowledge rather than...."
I was born in the day time, but not yesterday!
What you really posted was a bunch of verses yanked out of their place in the Bible, then you calling it "Jesus said," (unless you think Joshua was Jesus in one of many incarnations), to prove your point.
That's not study. That's bait-and-switch. That's prove-a-point-at-any-cost. AND, it wasn't from the word of God, it was from "you rely on religious men for your knowledge rather than...."
I was born in the day time, but not yesterday!
Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
I'll take Jesus words over yours.
What a contradiction. In one statement you say that he did nothing to earn his salvation. In the very next sentence, you say he went to God and asked for salvation. But apparently in your understanding of English, went and asked are not action verbs.
I see you like to use the word EARN all the time. Stretching out your hand to receive something being offered to you does not me you are trying to EARN anything. But stretching forth your hand is still something you have to DO in order to receive a gift that you did not EARN. So don't say you don't have to DO anything to receive salvation cause you are wrong.
I'll take Jesus words over yours.
What a contradiction. In one statement you say that he did nothing to earn his salvation. In the very next sentence, you say he went to God and asked for salvation. But apparently in your understanding of English, went and asked are not action verbs.
I see you like to use the word EARN all the time. Stretching out your hand to receive something being offered to you does not me you are trying to EARN anything. But stretching forth your hand is still something you have to DO in order to receive a gift that you did not EARN. So don't say you don't have to DO anything to receive salvation cause you are wrong.
E
Those who are born again does the will of the father, That is one of the “byproducts of being born again.
I believe what Jesus ssaid, the people who enter the kingdom of God will do the will of the father.
Of course, the will of the father is to believe in the name of the lord jesus christ, and you will be saved. Apart from this, You have rejected the will of the father
so in both iexamples. I have followed jesus.
Next
For the umpteenth time, IT iS THE WORK OF GOD ONE BELIEVES IN THE ONE HE SENT.
Do you understand what a work is?
I think you need to study the biblical defenition, because I do not see that you understand it at all.
The biblical defenition of the word work is somethign one can BOAST (take credit for) (eph 2 and rom 4) it is also a wage or reward which is earnerd.
I just use the biblical defenition.
But I guess you think a person who was shipwreked in the ocean and all hope wa slost. When someone comes, and he stretches out his hands and allows a person to save him, That that person saved himself. He earned his salvation by working, or he did something to save himself. When he gets on sure, he will boast of how hard he worked to save himself and how thankful he was he was not liek other people who did not stretch out their hands.
Of course not, He will BOAST in the one who saved them. Because he knew he was dead, and LOST WITH NO HOPE. And there was NOTHING he could do to save himself.
I believe what Jesus ssaid, the people who enter the kingdom of God will do the will of the father.
Of course, the will of the father is to believe in the name of the lord jesus christ, and you will be saved. Apart from this, You have rejected the will of the father
so in both iexamples. I have followed jesus.
Next
For the umpteenth time, IT iS THE WORK OF GOD ONE BELIEVES IN THE ONE HE SENT.
Do you understand what a work is?
I think you need to study the biblical defenition, because I do not see that you understand it at all.
The biblical defenition of the word work is somethign one can BOAST (take credit for) (eph 2 and rom 4) it is also a wage or reward which is earnerd.
I just use the biblical defenition.
But I guess you think a person who was shipwreked in the ocean and all hope wa slost. When someone comes, and he stretches out his hands and allows a person to save him, That that person saved himself. He earned his salvation by working, or he did something to save himself. When he gets on sure, he will boast of how hard he worked to save himself and how thankful he was he was not liek other people who did not stretch out their hands.
Of course not, He will BOAST in the one who saved them. Because he knew he was dead, and LOST WITH NO HOPE. And there was NOTHING he could do to save himself.
D
I wish you would take Jesus's words over everything and everyone. For instance, look again. That first verse you used said the same thing EG said, thus you must be seeing as something other than Jesus's words.
Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
No kidding! No one does, (or doeth, if you're really committed to 16th century English lol), the Father's will without being saved.
Aka without this...
If you have to obey the commands to be saved, Your working to earn salvation.
STOP looking at scripture to make it agree with you. Read it to make it agree with God.
And that's not said out of angry or scolding. That's said out of experience. I wasted years of my life trying to force God into my viewpoint, and it wasn't working at all. (Really had trouble accepting that God intentionally killed thousands and thousands of Israelites, so tried to give him excuses to do that.) It. Does. NOT. Worked!
I was saved when I just turned 16. I was still trying to force God into agreeing with me/into my imagine of who I want him to be at your age. Wasted years!
Don't waste your years. Start accepting Jesus really did say that/God really did do that, and then take it from there without excusing him. He's much bigger and stronger than you can imagine.
And you're a lot smaller and weaker than you can imagine. (So am I, so that's a universal-you, as well as a literal-you.) I also think that is part of God's grace that we cannot see how bad we are all at once. If we did, we'd curl into a ball and die.
Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
No kidding! No one does, (or doeth, if you're really committed to 16th century English lol), the Father's will without being saved.
Aka without this...
If you have to obey the commands to be saved, Your working to earn salvation.
STOP looking at scripture to make it agree with you. Read it to make it agree with God.
And that's not said out of angry or scolding. That's said out of experience. I wasted years of my life trying to force God into my viewpoint, and it wasn't working at all. (Really had trouble accepting that God intentionally killed thousands and thousands of Israelites, so tried to give him excuses to do that.) It. Does. NOT. Worked!
I was saved when I just turned 16. I was still trying to force God into agreeing with me/into my imagine of who I want him to be at your age. Wasted years!
Don't waste your years. Start accepting Jesus really did say that/God really did do that, and then take it from there without excusing him. He's much bigger and stronger than you can imagine.
And you're a lot smaller and weaker than you can imagine. (So am I, so that's a universal-you, as well as a literal-you.) I also think that is part of God's grace that we cannot see how bad we are all at once. If we did, we'd curl into a ball and die.
D
BTW, just so everyone is getting the humor here -- EG and I do not agree on the whole how-we-are-saved issue. We simply agree on some of it. So that I'm agreeing with EG or he is agreeing with me, had better make everyone, at the very least, chuckle a little.
Or marvel that God is doing a miracle right here and now.
Or marvel that God is doing a miracle right here and now.