Works Salvation

eternally-gratefull · Mar 6, 2018

apostolic862004 said:

well lets see.

I already gace you two. And you have nto refuted them yet. So lets starty there. (Gal andf james)

So you had a part in your birth? You canb born yourself? Really? I would loe to see that

John 6 - It is the work of God we believe in the one he sent

Baptism of the HS. Again, you can not cause yourself to be born. God must make you alive, in fact that is what scripture says

We already went over this, Peter told people to repent to get the gift of the spirit, and told them to be baptised because of remission of sin.

They involve you doing nothing but humbling yourself and saying OK God, I can;t do it, I need you to have mercy on me and save me.

God does all the work. I would be careful trying to take credit for the work of God, that is called blasphemy

Depleted · Mar 6, 2018

SpoonJuly said:

Are you married? If not, imagine being married. Do you do "enough" to stay married? Do you sit back and do nothing because you're already married, so why bother?

Same concept with God. He regenerated us all by himself. No help from us the first time we were born or when we were born again. But then here we are in him. I don't do things for hubby to stay in the state of marriage, or to prove I am worthy of him. I'm never going to be worthy of him. I do because I love him and want to out of that love. Same as why I do for the Lord.

Depleted · Mar 6, 2018

apostolic862004 said:

Saved. Present perfect. It means I was saved, I am saved, I will be saved.

Who saved me? The Lord.

What was my part in that? Zip. Zilch. De nada!

Can I undo what he has done? Nope.

But look what he has done. Saved. ME!

Why me? Not a clue.

And so what do I do about that? I love him because he first loved me. I do for him because he loves me and I love him. I do not do to be saved. I do because the one who loved me so much that he would come down on this earth, be raised in a bad time and place, and yet not sinned, died a horrible undeserved death for my sins.

Get off the do-nothing mentality, because it is not the mentality of someone who is saved.

apostolic862004 · Mar 6, 2018

BillG,

That is not my focus, although I do believe baptism is essential to salvation. My point is that no matter what you believe about salvation, it is going to involve you "doing" something. But just because you "do" something to be saved, does not mean that you think you are the one saving yourself. When Jesus tells you to "do" something, you had better do it.

The prevailing thought of the "no works" advocates seems to be that if you claim that you have to do something to be saved, whether God told you to do it or not, you are trying to save yourself. Well, tell Abraham that. God told Abraham he would have a son, and Abraham believed. But unless you believe that Sarah had a virgin birth, you must agree that Abraham and Sarah "did" something about what they believed. Noah believed God when he said it was going to rain. So tell Noah that he didn't have to do all that work and build an ark because God loved him and God already did the work for him by telling him how to build an ark. Tell the children of Israel that when the death angel passed through the land of Egypt on Passover night that they really didn't have to do what God said and put that blood on the door post in order to be spared because God already did the work for them.

Nah, none of that would fly and it doesn't fly now either. Jesus said if you don't repent, you are going to perish. (Luke 13:3) Jesus also said if you are not born of the water and of the Spirit, you ain't getting into heaven. (John 3:5) His apostles preached the exact same doctrine: Repent, be baptized in Jesus Name, Receive the Holy Ghost. This is the gospel and if you don't obey it, you will be lost. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)

James said faith without works is dead. All the "no works" advocates can hope up and down with their dead faith and claim you don't have to do anything to be saved, but I am going to believe Jesus instead of them, and I am going to do what he told me to do.

Depleted · Mar 6, 2018

apostolic862004 said:

Scripture does NOT say that. Please provide any scripture that says or even implies that. I will give you several that directly contradict your statement:

John 3:5 - Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

No matter how you interpret these verses of scripture and how they relate to salvation, one thing is very clear: They all involve the individual doing something.

Oi vey! You're a H2O-saves person. Haven't seen your kind in decades.

apostolic862004 · Mar 6, 2018

Wow. So God picks people at random and saves them. They had no part in it and they cannot undo it. Sounds like a few Athiests are gonna be saved against their will. God's going to tell them they are coming to heaven whether they like it or not because it's all up to him who get's saved and once he saves you, you can't undo it.

joefizz · Mar 6, 2018

(thought I'd try No name's delete post trick,hahaha hahaha)

eternally-gratefull · Mar 6, 2018

apostolic862004 said:

Did God pick the tax collectorout of randomness? No

Yet what brought the Tax collector to his knees?

It is the WORK OF GOD that we believe.

we need to answer 2 questions.

1. What did God do to bring the tax collector to his knees?

2. What did the tac collector do to EARN salvation?

apostolic862004 · Mar 6, 2018

So God makes a person believe in him? Where is free will? Where is the power of choice?

I have already previously state that we do not EARN our salvation. But please tell me how you can be saved without OBEYING the commandments of Jesus Christ? See, what you are confusing is the availability of salvation with the obtaining of salvation. We did NOTHING for salvation to be available to us. That was simply God's grace. But in order to obtain the salvation that he made AVAILABLE to everyone, we must OBEY what he said it takes to obtain it. The begins with believing which is a choice that every individual must make on their own. So there is something you must "DO" in order to obtain the salvation that was made available by God's grace.

If there are 5 people in the room and I put 5 $100 bills on the table and say you can each have one, they didn't do anything to merit that action. They did nothing to deserve it or to cause me to do that. It was simply my good pleasure to do it. But if they all sit there in their chairs and get all excited about how I gave them all $100 and they jump up and leave the table and go tell everybody how good i've been to them because I freely gave them $100, but they never reach out to the table and grab their $100 bill, it is of no effect. I made it available to them, but they still have to "do" something to get it.

tourist · Mar 6, 2018

joefizz said:

You are learning from an expert in this technique.

Depleted · Mar 6, 2018

apostolic862004 said:

Not by random. By HIS choice! You want to know how he chooses? He told. He chose the foolish and weak.

You got a problem with that?

Maybe you do, since you think you have a part in his choice.

And, yes, actually, some atheists have been chosen. You don't get out much do you, that you don't know that.

You also missed the boat all together if you think this is nothing but saving up for an eternal vacation plan called heaven.

seed_time_harvest · Mar 6, 2018

Metternich said:

I see a number of people rail against works salvation and I am not sure what it is. I know and believe that you can do no work to merit the gift of faith. It is free grace given by God. After that saving faith what role if any do works play in salvation. By works I mean things mentioned in Mt 25:35-37, giving food to the hungry, water to the thirsty, welcoming the stranger, visiting the sick and those in prison. What if someone with saving faith does no work what will be the verdict of Christ on judgement day. Will they go to heaven? Will those who do work get greater rewards in heaven than those who do not work.

Their works will be tested to see what manner It Is and If they don’t receive any rewards for works yet their soul will be saved.

seed_time_harvest · Mar 6, 2018

Ariel82 said:

Amen and also after salvation we receive grace FOR grace.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 6, 2018

apostolic862004 said:

Jesus said, it is the work of God we believe in the one he sent. (How many times do I have to post this????)

Your argument is with Jesus not me.

You can not earn your salvation by getting on your knees and calling out to God. Thus belief is NOT A WORK

If you have to obey the comands to be saved, Your working to earn salvation. So please. Stop sasying you do not believe we have to work to earn sdalvation, thgen claim we have to work to earn salvation.

I am not confusing anything, Everyone has the ability to be saved, But not everyone will be saved. And the only way we will be saved is to be as the tax collector. Who did nothing to earn his salavtion, He went to God and asked GOD to save him, because he knew he had nothing to offer.

So please stop tryign to interpret my words, You keep getting it wrong

In other words. You believe we have to EARN SALVATION.

Belief is not enough, Even demons believes, It takes faith. I can only assume you do not understand what that means.

And it begins and ENDS with faith.

Yep. But think, they first had to have faith you were really sincere, And not think they woudl get up and at the last minute you would snatch it out of their hands and they basically made a fool of themselves. or like most humans, they would think they have to earn it, so they would go out and do works to make sure they got it. Why? Because they have no faith you really mean to give it to them for nothing (actually you worked for it)

Thats why many will never recieve christ, because like you, they think they have to EARN it, or they will not get it.

You see man, Your the one who is confused. Your confusing sanctification, which is ongoing until the day we die, and justification, which is recieved the MOMENT we had faith.

Teh tax collector went home saved (justified) and he did not get baptised. Join a church, obey any commands, He simply said God I give, I can’t do it, I need your mercy.

as long as you think you need to earn your salvation by obedience, you will bnever come to the point of the tac collector.

Zmouth · Mar 6, 2018

apostolic862004 said:

Maybe try looking at it from a different perspective, did you choose to become a living being?

apostolic862004 said:

Nope, it is all the work of Christ.

apostolic862004 said:

The LORD doesn't save anyone against his will, you ought to know that seeing that the LORD is a God of truth.

apostolic862004 said:

See, you're were just toying with us.

Zmouth · Mar 6, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

So who do you believe Jesus sent to you?

DJ2 · Mar 6, 2018

BillG said:

Funnily enough I have in another thread just posted that works are not what we do, but what we don't do and quoted what Jesus said "if you did not do to them then you did not do it for me"

Matthew 25:45
45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

What I find is that works salvation focuses on the sins of the flesh as in Galatians.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we should disregard this.
In Jesus we should seek to crucify the flesh.

The problem is that that can become our focus and we can neglect Mt 25:35-37.

I think of Peter at times.
A hot headed man. In today's culture he would be labelled as having anger management issues.
Jesus knew he was a hothead.
Yet he still chose him and used him.

In today's church he would be labelled a legalist.

Adstar · Mar 7, 2018

apostolic862004 said:

One must believe Jesus and trust in the Atonement He secured for their salvation..

Believing and Trusting is what Faith is .. Faith is not a works.. The Bible states that Faith is not a works..

Romans 9: KJV
30 "What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. {31} But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. {32} Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;"

mailmandan · Mar 7, 2018

apostolic862004 said:

Have you considered living water in John 3:5? Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. *Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, (the individual doing something--choosing to believe in Him) as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. *Did you see that? If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. Water baptism is the picture or symbol of the new birth, but not the means of securing it.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he whodoes not believe will be condemned.

The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

*In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47 - this is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

p_rehbein · Mar 7, 2018

Might also consider that when a child is born, a woman's water breaks first..........just saying

Have to consider all options right?

Works Salvation

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