50 Shades of Grey is Women's Porn

[LionEyes]

I think it's an awful book.

Then stop defending it.

That said, it's done what it's done for plenty of women. Sex toys sales went through the roof after its release, and a large number of women report that the book's social acceptance -- to some degree -- has given them courage to experiment with their sex lives whereas before they felt ashamed. I never said it was a good book, I said it has been a platform for a lot of women to be open about their sexual fantasies, which it has.

You know what else has gone up? Restraint-related injuries that occur during intimate times and trips to the ER. Also, my hope for humanity has gone down.

I highly doubt lots of college boys gangrape college girls without regret because 50 Shades of Grey reckons it's okay. That was the point I replied to and called an ''exaggeration''.

No, it's much more insidious. There's a part in the book where Grey breaks into Ana's apartment after she rejects his proposition, ties her to the bed, and sexually assaults her. He justifies this by saying, because she was aroused, she enjoyed it. And she believes it. This isn't fantasy. It's a pervasive belief held by both men and women in real life. Real rapists have really told their real victims the exact same thing that Grey tells Ana. Does it turn men into raving lunatics? Of course not, because that's absurd. But it does perpetuate toxic ideas about love, romance, and consent that are already very prevalent in society. I know women who have been stalked by their boyfriends, who are afraid of being physically hurt by their boyfriends, and who stay with them regardless because "he's so romantic" and "he'll change if I just love him more."

Dark fantasy is great, as long as we're very clear that it's fantasy. I've written rape scenes way worse than anything in 50 Shades, but I never condoned it. I never said that it was the epitome of a loving relationship as James and many of the fans have claimed about Christian and Ana.

 

[Stephen63]

When you say this



Don't follow up with


How do YOU remember ''True Story'' magazines....
If you are going to fire off at someone it's best to be above reproach.

I was 17 when I got saved in 1979..... before that, I was a sinner just like anyone else. He was speaking of current events, an entirely different story. Surely you don't think I was one of those saints that was saved outta my crib, do you? I was raised in da hood by racist parents before I came to the Lord..... so you can stop your insinuations of my self-righteous bigotry.

If I remember correctly, speaking before you know the facts are NOT being above reproach, FYI.

 

[Human]

Then stop defending it.

I wasn't. I'm conveying the point that sexually, it has done a lot for a lot of women.



Y

ou know what else has gone up? Restraint-related injuries that occur during intimate times and trips to the ER. Also, my hope for humanity has gone down.

Well, accidents happen sometimes.

No, it's much more insidious. There's a part in the book where Grey breaks into Ana's apartment after she rejects his proposition, ties her to the bed, and sexually assaults her. He justifies this by saying, because she was aroused, she enjoyed it. And she believes it. This isn't fantasy. It's a pervasive belief held by both men and women in real life. Real rapists have really told their real victims the exact same thing that Grey tells Ana. Does it turn men into raving lunatics? Of course not, because that's absurd. But it does perpetuate toxic ideas about love, romance, and consent that are already very prevalent in society. I know women who have been stalked by their boyfriends, who are afraid of being physically hurt by their boyfriends, and who stay with them regardless because "he's so romantic" and "he'll change if I just love him more."

Dark fantasy is great, as long as we're very clear that it's fantasy. I've written rape scenes way worse than anything in 50 Shades, but I never condoned it. I never said that it was the epitome of a loving relationship as James and many of the fans have claimed about Christian and Ana.

Again, it's fantasy for many women to be totally dominated, and the book gives many women gumption to admit to it. That said, it doesn't turn men into raving lunatics, as you say. That was my point. It is a work of fiction. We know it is, but it is a culturally important work of fiction. Just because I don't like it, doesn't mean I can't recognize its effect on peoples' sex lives.

 

[LionEyes]

Again, it's fantasy for many women to be totally dominated...

Yet again, I'm not complaining about that. I'm complaining because this "book" crosses that line between fantasy and reality. It not only explores a dark fantasy, it condones abusive behavior. It tells women that you should stay with the guy who's trying to stalk and control you, because you can love him better. And people actually believe this, and people actually stay in abusive relationships because they believe this.

 

[Human]

Yet again, I'm not complaining about that. I'm complaining because this "book" crosses that line between fantasy and reality. It not only explores a dark fantasy, it condones abusive behavior. It tells women that you should stay with the guy who's trying to stalk and control you, because you can love him better. And people actually believe this, and people actually stay in abusive relationships because they believe this.

If theface-value content of an erotic fictional work is assumed to have the credentials to be accepted as a de facto basis for social moral education then we're screwed.

As for your logic, you're inferring that people stay in these relationships because of Fifty Shades of Grey, a work of art -- art, whose function has always in part been the exploration of both the venerable and the detestable. In reality, people are far more likely to take their relationship advice from factual organizations representing the true, non-artistic, body of knowledge concerning them.

Romanticizing the uncooth for ironic effect -- or sometimes for plain indulgence -- has always been a facet of artistic exploration and in today's society which progresses towards sexual fastidiousness rather than shameful aversion such a topic is pertinent for artistic exploration, but art has never been supposed to define the constraints within which we live our lives. Religion has historically tended to take over that role, and as is contextually important, Christianity teaches that women should submit to their husbands in all things. So if anything, EL James shows you just how degrading the fruit of that teaching can be.

Even the condoning of the abusive behaviour within the book is something to be challenged. Art and its interpretations allow for that. People lap it up for many reasons that aren't inherently to do with justifying or propagating the idea that obsession or abusive behaviour is warranted.

Have you ever heard of the Ballet Russe? It was written a long time ago when prudence was fierce, and it ironically challenged the ideals of female sexual liberation by subjecting the audience to representations of insatiable women in harem orgies on stage.

 

[LionEyes]

If theface-value content of an erotic fictional work is assumed to have the credentials to be accepted as a de facto basis for social moral education then we're screwed ... As for your logic, you're inferring that people stay in these relationships because of Fifty Shades of Grey, a work of art -- art, whose function has always in part been the exploration of both the venerable and the detestable. In reality, people are far more likely to take their relationship advice from factual organizations representing the true, non-artistic, body of knowledge concerning them.

We're screwed.

You're trying to simplify human behavior too far. The fact is that media does influence our beliefs and behavior, and our beliefs and behavior inspires trends in the media. Is that the only thing that inspires us? No. But it does have an effect, a rather large effect.

You're also trying to paint 50 Shades a complex work of art, but it isn't. It does not comment on abuse in an intelligent way. It stupidly and blatantly condones it, and we have every right to criticize this book for doing that.

 

[Human]

We're screwed.

You're trying to simplify human behavior too far. The fact is that media does influence our beliefs and behavior, and our beliefs and behavior inspires trends in the media. Is that the only thing that inspires us? No. But it does have an effect, a rather large effect.

You're also trying to paint 50 Shades a complex work of art, but it isn't. It does not comment on abuse in an intelligent way. It stupidly and blatantly condones it, and we have every right to criticize this book for doing that.

And I've every right to think you're over-reacting. It's fiction, and I don't think most people are as stupid as you seem to. Blatantly condoning it is something to be challenged. If blatantly condoning it offends you, then you've learnt something about yourself.

That said, fiction, art, they're tools for free expression, and it also says something about society when the book does what it has and sells like it does.

 

[LionEyes]

And I've every right to think you're over-reacting. It's fiction, and I don't think most people are as stupid as you seem to.

Clearly you've never been on the 50 Shades fan boards...

I have argued with 50 Shades fans who think Christian's stalking is just the most romantic thing ever. I worked at my school's hotline for two years and heard plenty of stories from women who are so frustrated with their controlling boyfriends but who refuse to leave them because "he'll change if I just love him more." You might think I'm overreacting, but I see this mentality everywhere. I'm sick of hearing it. I'm sick of seeing people condone it and portray it as romantic. And I'm sick of watching people get hurt because they believe it.

 

[Human]

Clearly you've never been on the 50 Shades fan boards...

I have argued with 50 Shades fans who think Christian's stalking is just the most romantic thing ever. I worked at my school's hotline for two years and heard plenty of stories from women who are so frustrated with their controlling boyfriends but who refuse to leave them because "he'll change if I just love him more." You might think I'm overreacting, but I see this mentality everywhere. I'm sick of hearing it. I'm sick of seeing people condone it and portray it as romantic. And I'm sick of watching people get hurt because they believe it.

I don't think it's ever been truly ''romantic'', but the obsessive pursuance has been a purely instinctual sexual fantasy. Hearken back to early humanity and men would have literally pursued women, and I suppose, at the risk of seeming to rationalize abuse (which isn't what I'm trying to do) there is a psychological residue still left in that vein. I would suggest that it's the reason this book appeals to so many women on some primal, taboo level.

 

[LionEyes]

I don't think it's ever been truly ''romantic'', but the obsessive pursuance has been a purely instinctual sexual fantasy. Hearken back to early humanity and men would have literally pursued women, and I suppose, at the risk of seeming to rationalize abuse (which isn't what I'm trying to do) there is a psychological residue still left in that vein. I would suggest that it's the reason this book appeals to so many women on some primal, taboo level.

For the last time, this book does not appeal to a lot of women. It only seems that way because EL James is a marketing evil genius, and the hype surrounding this book was entirely manufactured by EL James.

When you look at the reviews and actually talk to real people, many women DON'T like the book. The vast majority of my friends did not. There are far more haters than lovers, and there are even more people who are just indifferent.

 

[Human]

For the last time, this book does not appeal to a lot of women. It only seems that way because EL James is a marketing evil genius, and the hype surrounding this book was entirely manufactured by EL James.

When you look at the reviews and actually talk to real people, many women DON'T like the book. The vast majority of my friends did not. There are far more haters than lovers, and there are even more people who are just indifferent.

I dunno. My facebook page is filled with women who rave about it. So I tend to disagree.

 

[LionEyes]

I dunno. My facebook page is filled with women who rave about it. So I tend to disagree.

Try the Amazon and Goodreads reviews. I've never seen more hatred toward a book.

Quote from a chatter who is watching this argument: "Most of my friends hated it and stopped reading it. Also, most of my friends who read it are female."

When this book was brought up in my class, everyone laughed at the name alone. That's 40 students, half of whom are women.

 

[Human]

Try the Amazon and Goodreads reviews. I've never seen more hatred toward a book.

Quote from a chatter who is watching this argument: "Most of my friends hated it and stopped reading it. Also, most of my friends who read it are female."

When this book was brought up in my class, everyone laughed at the name alone. That's 40 students, half of whom are women.

Well, perhaps its less loved in your circles.

 

[jsr1221]

If this really is turning into a movie I am kinda curious as to what the reaction will be from people watching it. Whatever the outcome is I think will determine what most women prefer. That doesn't make it a good thing, though.

 

[Stephen63]

It should not be viewed as a platform sto say ''this is what all women want'', but as inspiration to think ''perhaps she might want something different''. Generally, in relationships, women find itdifficult to ask for, or express, their true sexual desires and in this regard 50 Shades has been liberating because it gives women a platform from which to actually tell their partners what they'd really like. The fact that it has sold so many copies is testament to the power the book has as a sexual tool in our modern age where prudence can often come before satisfaction between couples.



This simply isn't true. No sexual act in and of itself in the book is overtly predatory. This is an exaggeration.



Then it is an opportunity for growth for us and for young women. If young women truly build their entire relationship values of one book I worry for the state of young womens' sense of reason. In reality you view them as far more unintelligent than they actually are. Women read the book and generally find themselves attracted to MR Grey because of the fantasy of being dominated. That is not to say they take the love story itself, if it can be called that, as the pinnacle of independent and egalitarian romanticism; they do not, generally.



Being desired to the point of obsession is a romantic and sexual fantasy for many women.



They're being taught nothing but what they take from the book. Again, many women find it liberating to have a platform from which they can recognize their genuine sexual desires with their partners rather than suppress them as society often tells them they must.



College boys are smart enough to understand it's just a book, and college ''rape'' is over-reported and highly exaggerated because of the same neo-feministic ideals you seem to want to support. The reason college boys end up in false rape accusation cases is because feminists redefine rape to mean ''regretted sex''. Regretted consensual sex is not rape.



Supposed to? That's a gross exaggeration.



Ad yet if it was socially propagated that women should cover up (or God forbid, wear a burkha to save themselves from exploitation or sexual objectification) you'd oppose that too, I would imagine.

Look, women are free to do what they like in our society. That's the bottom line really.

​What I seem to hear from you that this "liberating effect" of this book is justified as acceptable in your eyes. Tell us plainly what you believe about that, please.

 

[Human]

​What I seem to hear from you that this "liberating effect" of this book is justified as acceptable in your eyes. Tell us plainly what you believe about that, please.

I think women should be able to be honest about the things they desire in the bedroom. As should men.

 

[Nautilus]

I think women should be able to be honest about the things they desire in the bedroom. As should men.

Regardless of the nature of the book that started this discussion, that is a very valid point.

 

[Stephen63]

I think women should be able to be honest about the things they desire in the bedroom. As should men.

While honesty is a good policy, bondage & domination is totally against the Word of God.
1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Ephesians 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

 

[A_Friend_In_Christ]

When does this convo begin to get graphic and they begin quoting from the book? Is anyone monitoring this?

 

[djness]

I was 17 when I got saved in 1979..... before that, I was a sinner just like anyone else. He was speaking of current events, an entirely different story. Surely you don't think I was one of those saints that was saved outta my crib, do you? I was raised in da hood by racist parents before I came to the Lord..... so you can stop your insinuations of my self-righteous bigotry.

If I remember correctly, speaking before you know the facts are NOT being above reproach, FYI.

The amount of sexual content on christian websites these days is by far more than what anyone needs to know. I'm sure it's VERY easy to know what people are doing behind close doors. I've seen so much on CC I would think none of these people were born virgins. So you are just projecting what you want onto someone who may ALSO have pre-conversion experience. YOU can stop your insuations that he STILL living in some sort of sin. Lots of christians know about this book from various christians sites. That is where I heard about it myself. YOU went on the attack because you dislike the guy. That is evident. Maybe you aren't the only one here who wasn't born best buddies with Jesus.

I used to respect you on this site but you have gotten sloppy and mean and in no way reflecting the Christ I used to see in you here.