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I've been reading this thread since the beginning, but didn't want to jump in before I was sure I had a bit of a grasp on what each "party" was saying. I'm still very hesitant to say much because of the way certain things get "twisted" or "misunderstood" either one. I think sometimes certain words strike a chord in some people that may not be intended by the person who writes them. As an example the simple word "hit". Does this mean slap?, smack?, spank?, punch?, ......many ways to take the meaning of "hit". In all honesty, I, personally do NOT advocate "hitting" our spouses, nor beleive we are to "hit" our spouses in ANY way, shape or form. Disipline is for children, and a swat (oh bouy.....another word that can probably be misconstrewed) on the bottom could be called for (as long as NOT done in anger--and NOT when not under control) but for our spouse?? Noooo, I personally don't go along with this thinking. Slapping is degrading, and puts a disrespect of one's opinions/rights/and sense of being, into a relationship, spanking would be even worse in many ways....think about it..yuk. Smacking, punching....that's by far into abuse..... In defense of your posts Maddog, I do beleive you don't mean abuse, but BUTANNNNY form of degradtion is a form of abuse too....so, well.....I will pray you may come to rethink any form of "hitting" your spouse to be "ok" before you ever decide to get married.
M
Thank you for making the effort to understand what I've been saying.
However, I think with any discipline, a certain level of humiliation is intended. For example, teachers often tell their pupils off in front of the class, and similar techniques are also used by the military. As far as I can tell, the real question is about what kind of authority a husband has over his wife. As I've previously articulated, I see it as basically meaningless to agree that wives should submit to their husbands yet denying the husband any means of ensuring that this relationship is maintained. And once we accept that the husband possesses the authority to rebuke his wife at all, I see no reasonable justification for insisting that any discipline is limited only to the non-physical.
So, the questions that need to be answered are really what does it mean to be head, and what does it mean to submit? And has a husband the authority to correct his wife in any way (can he tell her off, can he deny her that shopping trip, can he overrule her decisions etc.)?
However, I think with any discipline, a certain level of humiliation is intended. For example, teachers often tell their pupils off in front of the class, and similar techniques are also used by the military. As far as I can tell, the real question is about what kind of authority a husband has over his wife. As I've previously articulated, I see it as basically meaningless to agree that wives should submit to their husbands yet denying the husband any means of ensuring that this relationship is maintained. And once we accept that the husband possesses the authority to rebuke his wife at all, I see no reasonable justification for insisting that any discipline is limited only to the non-physical.
So, the questions that need to be answered are really what does it mean to be head, and what does it mean to submit? And has a husband the authority to correct his wife in any way (can he tell her off, can he deny her that shopping trip, can he overrule her decisions etc.)?
M
Good questions,
My personal feeling about a wife submitting may differ to some other ideas, I do not think it entails the right to discipline a wife because she would be my partner not my subordinate, in times of disagreement I would expect my word to be final but if it wasn't I think there are better ways to resolve confilct, any confilct with another adult than hitting of any kind.
You know I have read that a christian wife should be prepared to stay at home, raise the kids and forefit her own desires for a working life and indepedent social activites etc.. and I do not agree with that at all, my view is both husband and wife pursue their desires with mutual consent and understanding but both accept that nothing can proceed without concensus, and if that cannot be reached a wife accepts her husbands decision not because she is 'required' too but because they have an established relationship based on profound trust and undertanding and she trusts in him even when she cannot trust his reasoning.
To be head is to be granted that trust and to submit is to be prepared to extend that trust when necessary, the idea of needing to 'tell off' your wife or deny her some trivial pleasure to assert your authority seems to me to be a fundamentally misguided approach to a relationship, to have that thought in your mind prior to marriage and going into it is almost anticipating immature behaviour on the part of your wife, that she lacked trust in you to such an extent that a punishment of that type would be required would indicate to me that she is not ready for marriage.
My personal feeling about a wife submitting may differ to some other ideas, I do not think it entails the right to discipline a wife because she would be my partner not my subordinate, in times of disagreement I would expect my word to be final but if it wasn't I think there are better ways to resolve confilct, any confilct with another adult than hitting of any kind.
You know I have read that a christian wife should be prepared to stay at home, raise the kids and forefit her own desires for a working life and indepedent social activites etc.. and I do not agree with that at all, my view is both husband and wife pursue their desires with mutual consent and understanding but both accept that nothing can proceed without concensus, and if that cannot be reached a wife accepts her husbands decision not because she is 'required' too but because they have an established relationship based on profound trust and undertanding and she trusts in him even when she cannot trust his reasoning.
To be head is to be granted that trust and to submit is to be prepared to extend that trust when necessary, the idea of needing to 'tell off' your wife or deny her some trivial pleasure to assert your authority seems to me to be a fundamentally misguided approach to a relationship, to have that thought in your mind prior to marriage and going into it is almost anticipating immature behaviour on the part of your wife, that she lacked trust in you to such an extent that a punishment of that type would be required would indicate to me that she is not ready for marriage.
This kind of stuff a lot of this really gets under my skin. I agree that it is not ok to hit your spouse. I know of nowhere in the Bible where it says its ok to do that, but the Bible SAYS to use corporal punishment. It is the *only* punishment I know of for children in the Bible. People who get on here and disagree with that always offer up these pop psychology justifications or personal anecdotes. That's fine...that's opinion, but it isnt God's opinions and when you look around at the state of childhood disobedience, I can see why God doesn't endorse timeout or Ritalin!