Two US TV journalists shot dead on air

[VioletReigns]

you should join the wiz kids, even they can tell jesus was raised from the dead.
again your blindness is plain to see., not my problem, your to blind to see what i said.

and who raised jesus fron the dead,


What you are saying is against what the Bible teaches.I assume you are Catholic. A person cannot be saved after death,we have to make our choice while still here on earth.(your quote)

strange jesus was saved after death. and you said a person cant be saved after death.

and if there is a resurrection , i will let you figure the rest out.

if you cant keep up, go back to bible school, and stop wasting my time with your rants. and religious bigotry.

by the christian means someone that believe jesus christ is the saviour.

I dont come here for sarcasm and childishness.Make your point (your quote) i did make a point, your talking rubbish.

Hi Royalscot, I can't deny I also wondered if there is still hope for the departed who haven't come to the Lord in this life. But then I think, look how greatly Jesus suffered and died for the will of the Father. Look how all of God's people suffered and died for the cause of Jesus Christ. Even Paul said he would go to hell in place of the lost, if doing so would get them to heaven. It was the Spirit of Jesus Christ in Paul which made him exclaim that. Because that's what Jesus did - took our place so we'd spend eternity with Him.

So that's what makes me believe that here and now is our only opportunity to be a light so that souls would come to Christ Jesus. I know because it is so urgent a cause in God's Word and in the life of Jesus and all of His followers.

Also too, Royalscot, I think God's plan is perfect. I don't think we have a reason to doubt His plan works. Ya know? I think God loves people more than we can ever hope to. And I think His business is creating us all for His own pleasure, establishing a relationship with us as His children, and then bringing us home with Him. I really believe He is able to do it.

Anyway, just my thoughts on it. Grace to you in Jesus!

 

[KennethC]

Since this has turned into a death penalty discussion I have a question for those who believe it is still in effect for new covenant believers to carry out:

Lord Jesus by His death on the cross took away the punishment for our sins, aka curse of the law. (Galatians 3:13)

So if the Lord took the punishment for our sins on Himself so that we no longer would face physical death by breaking the law (committing sins), why do you still place physical death as acceptable for others sins ???

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Lord Jesus by His death on the cross took away the punishment for our sins, aka curse of the law. (Galatians 3:13)

He took away God's punishment. If He took away all punishment, we would have no grounds for even making an arrest in a jaywalking case, much less murder.

Temporal punishment is still in the hands of the civil government.

 

[Omni]

Quote "By the very definition, insanity is extreme irrationality. This man was extremely irrational; no rational person would do what he did. That's not an excuse for him, it's a fact regarding the nature of his actions. I feel sadness for the victims, I also don't think railing mindlessly on the killer is productive."

He wasn't irrational.

irrational
ɪˈraʃ(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective

• 1.
  not logical or reasonable.
  "irrational feelings of hostility"
  
  
  
  

He was very rational.

Oh yes. Very rational indeed. Brutally murdering two people in broad daylight, making a spectacle of himself on social media, and then killing himself. The most rational thing I've heard about all year.

He didnt suddenly pick up a rock and bludgeon people to death.He plotted,stocked,planned and waited.

Plotting to murder someone. Hmm, again, sounds totally rational. Hey, I have an idea! They should put his picture up in mental hospitals to give the real crazies something rational to aspire to. What do you think?

He knew every detail down to posting the murder on social media.He was evil.No one is railing on the murderer.How many murders have we looked into their past,asked "why" endlessly,asked them why,their family and friends why.Why,why,why? Because evil overtakes people,lust,greed,revenge.But far left liberals want a disease for it.They want a reason other then evil,demonic.

Oh yes,the people who want to understand they psychology behind why people go out and murder two innocents in broad daylight are just loonies. Demonic possession is much more rational alternative theory. Remind me to bring that one up the next time I'm having lunch with my psychologist friend.

They want to rationalize evil.You cant.We havent found one reason looking into these people past to stop the next person from murdering.Why did Cain kill Abel? The first murder recorded in the Bible? Vengeance,jealousy.Simple.No disease,evil,period.

Why did Cain murder Abel? .. .Evil!
Why did that guy cut me off in traffic this morning? Evil!
Why do human cells degenerate? ... Evil!
Why did I get a fly in my soup? ... Evil!

You should write a textbook on logical reasoning. I bet it'd be a bestseller for all the murderers and the rapists. "Hey, look judge, it's evil's fault. I got nuthin to do with that, man. Go prosecute that devil guy, he's the one in control anyway".

Quote "I don't think you know the difference between excusing someone, and looking for reasons for someone's behaviour beyond some irrational, judgemental bloodlust."

Gimme a break,really. How much have we studied these people?!

Clearly not enough.

Carving up bodies,rapes,muders,young women chained in a basement. The horrendous,horrific things that have been done.God sees their blood,it cries to Him from the ground.He sees those last moments begging for life,screaming in pain,the last breath of life.I tell you God has judged these people already. It has nothing to do with bloodlust,it has to do with something the Bible calls "righteous indignation" Def."

Righteous anger is typically a reactive emotion of anger over perceived mistreatment, insult, or malice. It is akin to what is called the sense of injustice. "

My righteous indignation sense is also tingling.

Quote "He could have been admitted to a psychiatric facility and been studied. Then we'd learn something from this. Like, perhaps, what we can do to prevent it happening to other innocent families in future. "

Seriously?! Where has this worked?!

http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/violence/4th_milestones_meeting/evidence_briefings_all.pdf

In the last hundred years, violent crime has decreased quite dramatically, relative to population sizes. Better standards of life, better social conditions, longer lifespans, better educations, overall higher qualities of life, safeguards against child abuse, women's rights, have led to societies where violent crime will keep decreasing relative to population. The more inclusive, tolerant, and peaceful societies become, the more that feeds back into the society and continues to improve it.

But it seems enough for you that he's dead."

You better believe it.An eye for and eye.

"You have heard it said an eye for an eye, but I tell you .. .. .. You have heard it said love your neighbour and hate your enemy, but I tell you"..

It seems like I follow those instructions more than you do! And I'm not even Christian, how about that? Strange.

Its a pity he wasted his life but he had free will and he chose to murder two people.Justice demands a price be paid.Jesus pays that price but he took his own path,now he has chosen sin and that leads to death.

Oh, yea, I forgot, it's free will when someone makes a bad choice, but God's work when it's a good one. Darn it. Gotta stop forgetting that.

Well what happens when the next guy decides to go out and kill a lot of innocent people? Is it enough that he gets the death penalty? And the next? And the next? How many innocent people need to die because nobody wants to look at things like this with an honest, rational desire to find out why it happens and how it can be prevented in future?"
Murder has happened since the beginning of time.You can study motives till the end of time,not going to help. From Jack the Ripper to Son of Sam to the Boston bomber,study them all and you will find a common thread,evil. I see you are not a Christian so you believe differently because you have to.But a Christian believes we are born in sin,sin is our nature.

Either the guy was born a murderer and came out of the womb with a little baby machete in his little tiny baby hands, or you're an idiot.

I'm going with number two.

Quote "You think that in all the instances of shootings of innocents in the US in the past twenty years, any of the killers have given a turd about the definitions of sin?? They don't CARE!! They get access to guns with lax gun laws, they go out and kill people, then they get railed on by people who can't do anything else; people who think unfettered access to weapons is a right, but who take no responsibility for creating the conditions in which such a man like this is able to murder and kill at his whim. When was the last time someone went out and spree killed in Ireland??"

According to stats the states with the most gun control see the most tragedies.

False.

I deleted the rest of this paragraph of yours, because it's poo-poo. I hope you don't mind.

Quote""Pure evil" is a concept of judgement. That's all. It provides no solutions to situations like this. These events will keep happening, and people like you will keep shouting "kill him back". Great."
Yes! Evil is a judgement!! Gods judgement! And they will be punished.Would have studied Hitler? What do you think you would have learned that would have stopped Osama? What solution are you looking for? Actually there is a solution,but you'd deny it. God is the only solution.But people have free will.If your family was murdered would you not want justice? No? Ok,do you think you have a right to take that from others? To see justice done? What about the family where the daughters and wife were raped,tied to the beds and burned to death? How would you feel? Do you have a right to tell them how to feel? I dont think so.

In my experience, the last thing victims of bloodshed want, is more bloodshed. See how that makes sense?

Quote" He was "well" enough to do those things?? Do you really think any of what you've just described is healthy, or well? Those are not the actions of a mentally healthy person, any of them.'

They are the actions of an evil person.No I dont think he was insane and didnt know what he was doing.He plotted,he planned,he knew. Justice would be served for him to receive the death penalty had he lived.To say everyone that commits crime is mentally ill is ridiculous.Now days there is no responsibility for anything.He had a bad childhood,his parents divorced,he was picked on.Give me a break! He knew what he was doing,he was guilty and he was evil.No study needed.

.. right, and thinking murder is "rational" is totally not crazy at all.

Quote " And what I'm focusing on is to do something to change the circumstances that lead to things like this happening in the first place."

Like I said,murder has happened since the beginning of time.No solution,no magic pill has stopped one murder.In fact crime and murder has increased.A Christian understands its a need for God that has created this.Do all the studies you want,it wont stop the evil in mens hearts.Only God can do that.

God hasn't got the best track record, far as I can tell.

Shouting for the man's head isn't a solution, it's an idiotic, irrational, self-righteous gesture."

Justice isnt irrational,it isnt self righteous.When you take a life you forfeit your own.

Not according to our Jezza you don't.

These lives were lost.They will never see a sunset,never hug a loved one,never have children,never marry,never fulfill a dream. Dont call me self righteous for calling for justice.He carelessly snuffed out their lives.He should suffer the same loss that he caused.

I can see how that makes sense to someone who lives her life in a 1400's citizen mob. By the way, when are you and the DeLorean travelling back?

Any person can snap. Anybody. It takes certain conditions, and some people are more stable than others, but given a certain progression of events, the shooter could have been you."
So now we're all guilty as he is and we're all potential murders,is that it?

Right, because unestablishable future potentiality is exactly the same as certainty. Not.

Wow you'll go a long way to justify what this guy did wont you? No, I couldnt have been the shooter.For a couple reasons but I'll give just one...I believe in a righteous God,an unbiased and completely just God and I know that I would receive worse punishment from Him then anything anyone on this earth could dole out.

Oh that's right, I forgot again: unbearable torture for following our unavoidably sinful nature is totally rational, yea, and fear of getting a pineapple shoved into your bottom for the rest of eternity is the bestest, most moral reason to not go around murdering your fellow human beings. Well thank God you are really scared of those pineapples, otherwise, God only knows what you'd do!

Obviously this man wasn't always like that. He had a stable, decent-paying job. He was a normal member of society. So what happened? Why wasn't it seen? Who missed it? Was there any time during the lead up to this atrocity that by putting new implementations in place, might have saved the lives of these two innocent people? Those are the questions I ask."

Apparently he was like that.He was fired from other jobs because no one was able to work with him,at least thats what was said on the news yesterday.They said he was a disgruntled worker but it had been two years since he had worked there.What could you implement to stop that? How could you know two years later he would murder two people? When does the responsibility become his?! Does it ever?

The man didn't come out of the womb with a gun in his hand and a desire to shoot his former colleagues, but he ended up with a gun in his hand, shooting his former colleagues. Don't you wonder what happened in between? Oh no, that's right, it was evil's fault. Case solved.

Quote "If you want to do something for the victims families, then get off your white throne, take a bloody social responsibility for these events and make an effort to put in place changes that may prevent them in future."

Damn straight.

 

[Utah]

You're extraordinarily naive if you think the world is any safer because he's dead. The world has 7.3 billion people in it, and there's danger everywhere. One unstable guy with a gun being dead has no significant impact on that. Neither will the next unstable guy with a gun being dead, or the next. They'll keep coming, you'll keep electrocuting, and nothing will change.

Jesus would be so ​proud. Look at you, loving your enemies and all.

View attachment 134762

I do love my enemies; I pray in Jesus' name that God is merciful to them. That's love, baby, and its infinitely more than you do for enemies of peace, justice and morality! And yes, the world is safer today without him here because he can no longer harm you or your family. Typical liberal drone with your typical liberal fascist talking points. God away boy, you bother me.

 

[Omni]

I'm curious as to why you invoke the name of Jesus when your profile says you do not know Him.

I'm not a Buddhist. I must never invoke the name of Buddha. That's a banned word.

Sorry, leader.

 

[Omni]

I do love my enemies; I pray in Jesus' name that God is merciful to them. That's love, baby, and its infinitely more than you do for enemies of peace, justice and morality! And yes, the world is safer today without him here because he can no longer harm you or your family. Typical liberal drone with your typical liberal fascist talking points. God away boy, you bother me.

If him being dead makes the world safer, then you being dead makes the world smarter. And since you're so adamant your afterlife is going to be pure bliss, well, then the both of us can hope you get there post haste.

 

[Utah]

If him being dead makes the world safer, then you being dead makes the world smarter. And since you're so adamant your afterlife is going to be pure bliss, well, then the both of us can hope you get there post haste.

Is that the best you have? 6th grade insults? You're weaker than I thought.

As far as me dying, yes, the sooner the better, because when my moment arrives, I'll be with Jesus Christ, Lord of all, and Savior of those who love Him. You on the other hand should do your very best to enjoy every single second you have in this life, because without Jesus, you're simply not going to like your eternal state of being. Not my rules, I just acknowledge them.

The difference between you and me is, you're stewing in your hatred of Christianity while I'm truly hoping and praying you see the Light and rejoice! Fair well, my lost, little friend.

 

[JustAnotherUser]

If him being dead makes the world safer, then you being dead makes the world smarter. And since you're so adamant your afterlife is going to be pure bliss, well, then the both of us can hope you get there post haste.

Makes me wonder who the real 'irrational' person is here. Backs up a gun shooter by dismissing him as mentally ill (which only gives a negative stereotype with those who do have a mental health issues, by the way) and if society catered and owed up to him then he wouldn't have done this... Now comparing a criminal to someone who differs in opinion and tells them to off themselves. Yet I'm immature, as you say? Yet you accuse people of being irrational?

Utah, don't cave into this guy's nonsense. Live your life how you want to with no explanation to say about your right to exist peacefully. Report and block is the best thing we can offer this guy at this point.

 

[p_rehbein]

If him being dead makes the world safer, then you being dead makes the world smarter. And since you're so adamant your afterlife is going to be pure bliss, well, then the both of us can hope you get there post haste.

You are walking a thin line.......as do other unbelievers who come here. Eventually, such as you can not help but reveal their real self. The embolden statement is very close to being enough to your being sent into the netherworld of unbelievers. No real surprise you would make such a comment though............

 

[Utah]

Makes me wonder who the real 'irrational' person is here. Backs up a gun shooter by dismissing him as mentally ill (which only gives a negative stereotype with those who do have a mental health issues, by the way) and if society catered and owed up to him then he wouldn't have done this... Now comparing a criminal to someone who differs in opinion and tells them to off themselves. Yet I'm immature, as you say? Yet you accuse people of being irrational?

Utah, don't cave into this guy's nonsense. Live your life how you want to with no explanation to say about your right to exist peacefully. Report and block is the best thing we can offer this guy at this point.

Thank you, my Sister. You have wisdom beyond your years. God bless you.

 

[Utah]

You are walking a thin line.......as do other unbelievers who come here. Eventually, such as you can not help but reveal their real self. The embolden statement is very close to being enough to your being sent into the netherworld of unbelievers. No real surprise you would make such a comment though............

Well said, P_R.

 

[kaylagrl]

irrational
ɪˈraʃ(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective

• 1.
  not logical or reasonable.
  "irrational feelings of hostility"
  
  
  
  

Oh yes. Very rational indeed. Brutally murdering two people in broad daylight, making a spectacle of himself on social media, and then killing himself. The most rational thing I've heard about all year.



Plotting to murder someone. Hmm, again, sounds totally rational. Hey, I have an idea! They should put his picture up in mental hospitals to give the real crazies something rational to aspire to. What do you think?



Oh yes,the people who want to understand they psychology behind why people go out and murder two innocents in broad daylight are just loonies. Demonic possession is much more rational alternative theory. Remind me to bring that one up the next time I'm having lunch with my psychologist friend.



Why did Cain murder Abel? .. .Evil!
Why did that guy cut me off in traffic this morning? Evil!
Why do human cells degenerate? ... Evil!
Why did I get a fly in my soup? ... Evil!

You should write a textbook on logical reasoning. I bet it'd be a bestseller for all the murderers and the rapists. "Hey, look judge, it's evil's fault. I got nuthin to do with that, man. Go prosecute that devil guy, he's the one in control anyway".



Clearly not enough.


My righteous indignation sense is also tingling.



http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/violence/4th_milestones_meeting/evidence_briefings_all.pdf

In the last hundred years, violent crime has decreased quite dramatically, relative to population sizes. Better standards of life, better social conditions, longer lifespans, better educations, overall higher qualities of life, safeguards against child abuse, women's rights, have led to societies where violent crime will keep decreasing relative to population. The more inclusive, tolerant, and peaceful societies become, the more that feeds back into the society and continues to improve it.



"You have heard it said an eye for an eye, but I tell you .. .. .. You have heard it said love your neighbour and hate your enemy, but I tell you"..

It seems like I follow those instructions more than you do! And I'm not even Christian, how about that? Strange.



Oh, yea, I forgot, it's free will when someone makes a bad choice, but God's work when it's a good one. Darn it. Gotta stop forgetting that.



Either the guy was born a murderer and came out of the womb with a little baby machete in his little tiny baby hands, or you're an idiot.

I'm going with number two.



False.

I deleted the rest of this paragraph of yours, because it's poo-poo. I hope you don't mind.



In my experience, the last thing victims of bloodshed want, is more bloodshed. See how that makes sense?



.. right, and thinking murder is "rational" is totally not crazy at all.



God hasn't got the best track record, far as I can tell.



Not according to our Jezza you don't.



I can see how that makes sense to someone who lives her life in a 1400's citizen mob. By the way, when are you and the DeLorean travelling back?



Right, because unestablishable future potentiality is exactly the same as certainty. Not.



Oh that's right, I forgot again: unbearable torture for following our unavoidably sinful nature is totally rational, yea, and fear of getting a pineapple shoved into your bottom for the rest of eternity is the bestest, most moral reason to not go around murdering your fellow human beings. Well thank God you are really scared of those pineapples, otherwise, God only knows what you'd do!




The man didn't come out of the womb with a gun in his hand and a desire to shoot his former colleagues, but he ended up with a gun in his hand, shooting his former colleagues. Don't you wonder what happened in between? Oh no, that's right, it was evil's fault. Case solved.



Damn straight.

Well Im going to try and answer some of this loooonnng post and after this Im done. You're coming from a liberal,non Christian worldview and so there is no way you will admit to anything I say as right.And vise versa. You cant see it the way I do because you think Christianity is wrong.So we're basically wasting our time with each other.Last try,here goes....


1) Thanks for the English lesson but I know what irrational means. Q "Oh yes. Very rational indeed. Brutally murdering two people in broad daylight, making a spectacle of himself on social media, and then killing himself. The most rational thing I've heard about all year."

Perhaps "rational" is not the word.Calculated,reasoned may be better words.He was not mentally ill,didnt know what he was doing irrational is the point that I was trying to make.Not that its rational to murder a person.


2) Q "Plotting to murder someone. Hmm, again, sounds totally rational. Hey, I have an idea! They should put his picture up in mental hospitals to give the real crazies something rational to aspire to. What do you think?"

The following are used in insanity defense cases to determine mental illness....

The "M'Naghten Rule" - Defendant either did not understand what he or she did, or failed to distinguish right from wrong, because of a "disease of mind."
The "Irresistible Impulse" Test - As a result of a mental disease, defendant was unable to control his impulses, which led to a criminal act.
The "Durham Rule" - Regardless of clinical diagnosis, defendant's "mental defect" resulted in a criminal act.
The "Model Penal Code" Test for Legal Insanity - Because of a diagnosed mental defect, defendant either failed to understand the criminality of his acts, or was unable to act within the confines of the law.
- See more at: Insanity Defense - FindLaw

Im no criminal lawyer,neither are you,but I think in the cases above it would be hard to prove the murderer was insane.He knew right from wrong or he wouldnt have fled and shot himself. He clearly understood what he was doing,he boasted about it and put it on social media. Now a good lawyer may be able to find a loophole here,I dont know.But the man clearly knew right from wrong and fact from fantasy.It couldnt be claimed that he lost control and impulsively killed them because he did it 2yrs after being fired.I dont see how he'd get off on an insanity plea but again Im no lawyer.

3) Q "Oh yes,the people who want to understand they psychology behind why people go out and murder two innocents in broad daylight are just loonies. Demonic possession is much more rational alternative theory. Remind me to bring that one up the next time I'm having lunch with my psychologist friend."

Ok,forget demonic. Wipe that term out.Do you believe in absolute evil? Hitler,Stalin,Idi Amin,Jack the Ripper. Were they evil or just had mental disorders.Everyone in prison has a mental disorder? So its not their fault and its not their choice,they have no responsibility,they cant help it,they have no choice,is that it?

4) Q "Why did Cain murder Abel? .. .Evil!
Why did that guy cut me off in traffic this morning? Evil!
Why do human cells degenerate? ... Evil!
Why did I get a fly in my soup? ... Evil!

You should write a textbook on logical reasoning. I bet it'd be a bestseller for all the murderers and the rapists. "Hey, look judge, it's evil's fault. I got nuthin to do with that, man. Go prosecute that devil guy, he's the one in control anyway".


Why did Cain murder Abel? .. .Mental disorder!
Why did that guy cut me off in traffic this morning? Mental disorder!
Why do human cells degenerate? ... Mental disorder!
Why did I get a fly in my soup? ... Mental disorder!

You should write a textbook on logical reasoning. I bet it'd be a bestseller for all the murderers and the rapists. "Hey, look judge, it's the mental disorders fault. I got nuthin to do with that, man." I cant help it,its the mental disorder.I didnt choose to rape,Im mentally ill.Did I know what I was doing was wrong? Well yes,but its not MY fault I have a mental disorder.Cant hold me responsible for my actions because mental illness is a defense for every criminal act!!

5) Q "Clearly not enough."

It'll never be enough. For libs there has to be another reason then taking responsibility for their actions.

6) Q "My righteous indignation sense is also tingling."

Im sure it is,Im sure it is,but not for the right reasons.

7) Q "To your point of lowered crime and stats thats a long read.Going to have to give me time to check that out.But I think we were talking about putting violent murderers in a "psychiatric facility " rather than punishing them for their crime.Im not saying people cant be criminally insane.Yes,they can,certainly.Im just saying I dont think this case would get off on that defense and that cold blooded murderers should be punished.

8)Q "You have heard it said an eye for an eye, but I tell you .. .. .. You have heard it said love your neighbour and hate your enemy, but I tell you"..

It seems like I follow those instructions more than you do! And I'm not even Christian, how about that? Strange.

Listen,I dont hate this person,I dont personally know him.And according to the Bible if I did hate him Id also be guilty of murder.My cousin is a prison chaplain. I didnt not say a murderer could not repent and be saved.In fact I said the opposite.But this man did not repent. Therefore he chose death over Gods mercy.

9) Q "Oh, yea, I forgot, it's free will when someone makes a bad choice, but God's work when it's a good one. Darn it. Gotta stop forgetting that.

Sooo not following you here.We always have free will to chose good or bad. The choice is ours to do right or wrong.But thats not your belief set so of course you will not agree. God doesnt force one to do good or evil. But since you dont believe in God you'd disagree.That your choice...free will you could say.

10) Q "Either the guy was born a murderer and came out of the womb with a little baby machete in his little tiny baby hands, or you're an idiot.

I'm going with number two.

I said we were born with a nature to sin,not born murders,there is a difference. But since you are a liberal of course it would have come down to insulting me. " You're an idiot" You lambaste me for not having tolerance and turn around and call me an idiot,nice. Considering we're talking liberal logic here I'll take your insult as a huge compliment.

11) Q "False"

Depends on who you read....

The leftwing Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence collaborated with the Brady Campaign last year to produce a study purportedly showing a correlation between strict guns laws and lower gun-crime rates. But the study was flawed, and a Media Trackers review of FBI-crime statistics shows that there is no connection between strict gun laws and less gun crime.
The below chart looks at the 10 highest crime cities* and 10 lowest crime cities with populations over 250,000 according to FBI data and compares the cities to the LCPGV/Brady Campaign letter grade assigned to the state for its gun laws.
[TABLE="width: 432"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 128, colspan: 2"]City[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]Population[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]Violent Crime Rate (Per 100,000)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"][/TD]
[TD="width: 16"][/TD]
[TD="width: 59"][/TD]
[TD="width: 48"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Detroit, MI[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]C[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]707,096[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]2122.91[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Oakland, CA[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]A-[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]399,487[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]1993.31[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]St Louis, MO[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]F[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]318,667[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]1776.46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Memphis, TN[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]F[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]657,436[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]1750.28[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Stockton, CA[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]A-[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]299,105[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]1547.95[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Baltimore, MD[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]A-[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]625,474[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]1405.17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Cleveland, OH[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]D[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]393,781[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]1383.76[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Atlanta, GA[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]F[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]437,041[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]1379.05[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Milwaukee, WI[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]C-[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]599,395[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]1294.47[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Buffalo, NY[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]A-[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]262,434[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]1288.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"][/TD]
[TD="width: 16"][/TD]
[TD="width: 59"][/TD]
[TD="width: 48"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 128, colspan: 2"]….[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"][/TD]
[TD="width: 48"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"][/TD]
[TD="width: 16"][/TD]
[TD="width: 59"][/TD]
[TD="width: 48"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Santa Ana, CA[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]A-[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]332,482[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]401.22[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Mesa, AZ[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]F[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]451,391[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]399.65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Lincoln, NE[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]D[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]264,175[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]379.46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Anaheim, CA[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]A-[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]344,526[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]371.23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]San Jose, CA[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]A-[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]976,459[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]363.25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Fort Wayne, IN[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]D-[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]256,625[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]362.79[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Lexington, KY[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]F[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]302,332[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]352.59[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Virginia Beach, VA[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]D[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]447,588[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]169.35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Henderson, NV[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]F[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]263,469[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]168.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Plano, TX[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]F[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]273,816[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]130.74[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] Mediatrackers.org.[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]12) Q "[/FONT]I deleted the rest of this paragraph of yours, because it's poo-poo. I hope you don't mind."

No I dont mind. Of course its poo poo its against your liberal logic. When it doesnt fit your worldview its poo poo.I get it,human nature I guess.

13) Q "In my experience, the last thing victims of bloodshed want, is more bloodshed. See how that makes sense?"

In your experience? Your profession is?... Its not actually a matter of what the victims want,its about laws and a debt to society.Getting past the shock and pain of loss and forgiveness is the families job. Justice for crime is the courts business.

14) Q ".. right, and thinking murder is "rational" is totally not crazy at all."

Dealt with that.Calculating,planned and thought out were better words.

15)Q "God hasn't got the best track record, far as I can tell."

Booted God out of school and gov't long ago,their working to push him out all together. This isn't a Christian country,right? Cant blame God now.

16) Q"Not according to our Jezza you don't."

Ya,ok Im good with that.

17) Q "I can see how that makes sense to someone who lives her life in a 1400's citizen mob. By the way, when are you and the DeLorean travelling back?"

So justice is a 1400s belief? Ahh thats where I made my mistake! So what about the "No Justice,No Peace" crowd.Will they be going back in time with me? The "Hands Up Dont Shoot" crowd? Or are they allowed to stay and seek justice?

18)Q "Oh that's right, I forgot again: unbearable torture for following our unavoidably sinful nature is totally rational, yea, and fear of getting a pineapple shoved into your bottom for the rest of eternity is the bestest, most moral reason to not go around murdering your fellow human beings. Well thank God you are really scared of those pineapples, otherwise, God only knows what you'd do!"

Did you have parents that disciplined you? Did you stop doing wrong because you feared being grounded? You stopped because you didnt want the consequences? Respect? You respected authority because you dont want to end up in jail? Help you guide your moral decisions? No pineapples were involved right? Thought so.

19) Q "The man didn't come out of the womb with a gun in his hand and a desire to shoot his former colleagues, but he ended up with a gun in his hand, shooting his former colleagues. Don't you wonder what happened in between? Oh no, that's right, it was evil's fault. Case solved."

Didnt say he did. You dont believe in evil,got it. Do I care what happened in between? If its an excuse for him not to be punished for cold blooded murder then no. I dont. Its odd to me that you cant understand evil intent,jealousy,greed may,just may be a reason for crime and murder. Again one can be insane but that doesnt appear to be the case here.He knew what he was doing.

20)Quote "If you want to do something for the victims families, then get off your white throne, take a bloody social responsibility for these events and make an effort to put in place changes that may prevent them in future."

So I see where our differences lie. Because you have a liberal worldview then society must take responsibility for a murderer.My worldview is that people have free choice to good or to do evil and that those choices come with consequences. A person has to take responsibility for themselves and their actions. And they have a debt to pay to society if they murder or otherwise break the law. Thats where we differ.But as you made clear you're not a Christian and those who are are idiots and loons. Im sorry you see it that way,its a pity.

 

[dcontroversal]

As it was in the days of Noah so shall it be in the day of the coming of the son of man......All flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth and the earth was filled with violence!

 

[Omni]

Well Im going to try and answer some of this loooonnng post and after this Im done. You're coming from a liberal,non Christian worldview and so there is no way you will admit to anything I say as right.And vise versa. You cant see it the way I do because you think Christianity is wrong.So we're basically wasting our time with each other.Last try,here goes....


1) Thanks for the English lesson but I know what irrational means. Q "Oh yes. Very rational indeed. Brutally murdering two people in broad daylight, making a spectacle of himself on social media, and then killing himself. The most rational thing I've heard about all year."

Perhaps "rational" is not the word.Calculated,reasoned may be better words.He was not mentally ill,didnt know what he was doing irrational is the point that I was trying to make.Not that its rational to murder a person.


2) Q "Plotting to murder someone. Hmm, again, sounds totally rational. Hey, I have an idea! They should put his picture up in mental hospitals to give the real crazies something rational to aspire to. What do you think?"

The following are used in insanity defense cases to determine mental illness....

The "M'Naghten Rule" - Defendant either did not understand what he or she did, or failed to distinguish right from wrong, because of a "disease of mind."
The "Irresistible Impulse" Test - As a result of a mental disease, defendant was unable to control his impulses, which led to a criminal act.
The "Durham Rule" - Regardless of clinical diagnosis, defendant's "mental defect" resulted in a criminal act.
The "Model Penal Code" Test for Legal Insanity - Because of a diagnosed mental defect, defendant either failed to understand the criminality of his acts, or was unable to act within the confines of the law.
- See more at: Insanity Defense - FindLaw

Im no criminal lawyer,neither are you,but I think in the cases above it would be hard to prove the murderer was insane.He knew right from wrong or he wouldnt have fled and shot himself. He clearly understood what he was doing,he boasted about it and put it on social media. Now a good lawyer may be able to find a loophole here,I dont know.But the man clearly knew right from wrong and fact from fantasy.It couldnt be claimed that he lost control and impulsively killed them because he did it 2yrs after being fired.I dont see how he'd get off on an insanity plea but again Im no lawyer.

3) Q "Oh yes,the people who want to understand they psychology behind why people go out and murder two innocents in broad daylight are just loonies. Demonic possession is much more rational alternative theory. Remind me to bring that one up the next time I'm having lunch with my psychologist friend."

Ok,forget demonic. Wipe that term out.Do you believe in absolute evil? Hitler,Stalin,Idi Amin,Jack the Ripper. Were they evil or just had mental disorders.Everyone in prison has a mental disorder? So its not their fault and its not their choice,they have no responsibility,they cant help it,they have no choice,is that it?

4) Q "Why did Cain murder Abel? .. .Evil!
Why did that guy cut me off in traffic this morning? Evil!
Why do human cells degenerate? ... Evil!
Why did I get a fly in my soup? ... Evil!

You should write a textbook on logical reasoning. I bet it'd be a bestseller for all the murderers and the rapists. "Hey, look judge, it's evil's fault. I got nuthin to do with that, man. Go prosecute that devil guy, he's the one in control anyway".


Why did Cain murder Abel? .. .Mental disorder!
Why did that guy cut me off in traffic this morning? Mental disorder!
Why do human cells degenerate? ... Mental disorder!
Why did I get a fly in my soup? ... Mental disorder!

You should write a textbook on logical reasoning. I bet it'd be a bestseller for all the murderers and the rapists. "Hey, look judge, it's the mental disorders fault. I got nuthin to do with that, man." I cant help it,its the mental disorder.I didnt choose to rape,Im mentally ill.Did I know what I was doing was wrong? Well yes,but its not MY fault I have a mental disorder.Cant hold me responsible for my actions because mental illness is a defense for every criminal act!!

5) Q "Clearly not enough."

It'll never be enough. For libs there has to be another reason then taking responsibility for their actions.

6) Q "My righteous indignation sense is also tingling."

Im sure it is,Im sure it is,but not for the right reasons.

7) Q "To your point of lowered crime and stats thats a long read.Going to have to give me time to check that out.But I think we were talking about putting violent murderers in a "psychiatric facility " rather than punishing them for their crime.Im not saying people cant be criminally insane.Yes,they can,certainly.Im just saying I dont think this case would get off on that defense and that cold blooded murderers should be punished.

8)Q "You have heard it said an eye for an eye, but I tell you .. .. .. You have heard it said love your neighbour and hate your enemy, but I tell you"..

It seems like I follow those instructions more than you do! And I'm not even Christian, how about that? Strange.

Listen,I dont hate this person,I dont personally know him.And according to the Bible if I did hate him Id also be guilty of murder.My cousin is a prison chaplain. I didnt not say a murderer could not repent and be saved.In fact I said the opposite.But this man did not repent. Therefore he chose death over Gods mercy.

9) Q "Oh, yea, I forgot, it's free will when someone makes a bad choice, but God's work when it's a good one. Darn it. Gotta stop forgetting that.

Sooo not following you here.We always have free will to chose good or bad. The choice is ours to do right or wrong.But thats not your belief set so of course you will not agree. God doesnt force one to do good or evil. But since you dont believe in God you'd disagree.That your choice...free will you could say.

10) Q "Either the guy was born a murderer and came out of the womb with a little baby machete in his little tiny baby hands, or you're an idiot.

I'm going with number two.

I said we were born with a nature to sin,not born murders,there is a difference. But since you are a liberal of course it would have come down to insulting me. " You're an idiot" You lambaste me for not having tolerance and turn around and call me an idiot,nice. Considering we're talking liberal logic here I'll take your insult as a huge compliment.

11) Q "False"

Depends on who you read....

The leftwing Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence collaborated with the Brady Campaign last year to produce a study purportedly showing a correlation between strict guns laws and lower gun-crime rates. But the study was flawed, and a Media Trackers review of FBI-crime statistics shows that there is no connection between strict gun laws and less gun crime.
The below chart looks at the 10 highest crime cities* and 10 lowest crime cities with populations over 250,000 according to FBI data and compares the cities to the LCPGV/Brady Campaign letter grade assigned to the state for its gun laws.
[TABLE="width: 432"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 128, colspan: 2"]City[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]Population[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]Violent Crime Rate (Per 100,000)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"][/TD]
[TD="width: 16"][/TD]
[TD="width: 59"][/TD]
[TD="width: 48"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Detroit, MI[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]C[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]707,096[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]2122.91[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Oakland, CA[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]A-[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]399,487[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]1993.31[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]St Louis, MO[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]F[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]318,667[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]1776.46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Memphis, TN[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]F[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]657,436[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]1750.28[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Stockton, CA[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]A-[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]299,105[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]1547.95[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Baltimore, MD[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]A-[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]625,474[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]1405.17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Cleveland, OH[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]D[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]393,781[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]1383.76[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Atlanta, GA[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]F[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]437,041[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]1379.05[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Milwaukee, WI[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]C-[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]599,395[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]1294.47[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Buffalo, NY[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]A-[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]262,434[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]1288.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"][/TD]
[TD="width: 16"][/TD]
[TD="width: 59"][/TD]
[TD="width: 48"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 128, colspan: 2"]….[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"][/TD]
[TD="width: 48"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"][/TD]
[TD="width: 16"][/TD]
[TD="width: 59"][/TD]
[TD="width: 48"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Santa Ana, CA[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]A-[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]332,482[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]401.22[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Mesa, AZ[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]F[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]451,391[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]399.65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Lincoln, NE[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]D[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]264,175[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]379.46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Anaheim, CA[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]A-[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]344,526[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]371.23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]San Jose, CA[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]A-[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]976,459[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]363.25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Fort Wayne, IN[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]D-[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]256,625[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]362.79[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Lexington, KY[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]F[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]302,332[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]352.59[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Virginia Beach, VA[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]D[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]447,588[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]169.35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Henderson, NV[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]F[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]263,469[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]168.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 112"]Plano, TX[/TD]
[TD="width: 16"]F[/TD]
[TD="width: 59"]273,816[/TD]
[TD="width: 48"]130.74[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Mediatrackers.org.

12) Q "I deleted the rest of this paragraph of yours, because it's poo-poo. I hope you don't mind."

No I dont mind. Of course its poo poo its against your liberal logic. When it doesnt fit your worldview its poo poo.I get it,human nature I guess.

13) Q "In my experience, the last thing victims of bloodshed want, is more bloodshed. See how that makes sense?"

In your experience? Your profession is?... Its not actually a matter of what the victims want,its about laws and a debt to society.Getting past the shock and pain of loss and forgiveness is the families job. Justice for crime is the courts business.

14) Q ".. right, and thinking murder is "rational" is totally not crazy at all."

Dealt with that.Calculating,planned and thought out were better words.

15)Q "God hasn't got the best track record, far as I can tell."

Booted God out of school and gov't long ago,their working to push him out all together. This isn't a Christian country,right? Cant blame God now.

16) Q"Not according to our Jezza you don't."

Ya,ok Im good with that.

17) Q "I can see how that makes sense to someone who lives her life in a 1400's citizen mob. By the way, when are you and the DeLorean travelling back?"

So justice is a 1400s belief? Ahh thats where I made my mistake! So what about the "No Justice,No Peace" crowd.Will they be going back in time with me? The "Hands Up Dont Shoot" crowd? Or are they allowed to stay and seek justice?

18)Q "Oh that's right, I forgot again: unbearable torture for following our unavoidably sinful nature is totally rational, yea, and fear of getting a pineapple shoved into your bottom for the rest of eternity is the bestest, most moral reason to not go around murdering your fellow human beings. Well thank God you are really scared of those pineapples, otherwise, God only knows what you'd do!"

Did you have parents that disciplined you? Did you stop doing wrong because you feared being grounded? You stopped because you didnt want the consequences? Respect? You respected authority because you dont want to end up in jail? Help you guide your moral decisions? No pineapples were involved right? Thought so.

19) Q "The man didn't come out of the womb with a gun in his hand and a desire to shoot his former colleagues, but he ended up with a gun in his hand, shooting his former colleagues. Don't you wonder what happened in between? Oh no, that's right, it was evil's fault. Case solved."

Didnt say he did. You dont believe in evil,got it. Do I care what happened in between? If its an excuse for him not to be punished for cold blooded murder then no. I dont. Its odd to me that you cant understand evil intent,jealousy,greed may,just may be a reason for crime and murder. Again one can be insane but that doesnt appear to be the case here.He knew what he was doing.

20)Quote "If you want to do something for the victims families, then get off your white throne, take a bloody social responsibility for these events and make an effort to put in place changes that may prevent them in future."

So I see where our differences lie. Because you have a liberal worldview then society must take responsibility for a murderer.My worldview is that people have free choice to good or to do evil and that those choices come with consequences. A person has to take responsibility for themselves and their actions. And they have a debt to pay to society if they murder or otherwise break the law. Thats where we differ.But as you made clear you're not a Christian and those who are are idiots and loons. Im sorry you see it that way,its a pity.

Look, I don't have the views I have because some professor brainwashed me. I'm not against punitive measures for punitive measures sake just because I'm a left-wing radicalist. My political views don't define me, my experiences do. I believe what I have said here, because it makes sense to believe it, given my experiences.

I've thought about the ideas of free will enough to know that free will isn't free will if every single condition of our existence is foreseen and allowed; if you believe in a God who can foresee all things and has power to create the world in any which way he sees it, then all choice is predetermined by the conditions of the existence he chose to create. If you follow the logical trail, it means that nothing could have happened any other way than the way it happened. God knew how it would happen, and he allowed it to happen. Therefore, it's illogical for you (being a Christian) to think you have any real choice. You don't. It's the anthropic principle. Everything you've ever done has been foreseen and permitted to take place by your God. Hitler? Stalin? Mao? Ultimately, God foresaw and permitted every piece of cosmic dust that formed this planet; God foresaw and permitted every cell in these mens' mothers' wombs; God foresaw and permitted every atrocity that they ever committed.

That's not an argument against God's existence, it's a logical deduction of God's allowance of every single shred of evil since the dawn of time. I, hitherto, haven't been able to justify following an entity like that. Why? Because it doesn't make sense to me.

You asked me why I ever had any reason to do good, in the context of growing up. Why did I ever listen to my parents? Was it fear of being punished? A projection of consequences that I didn't like? Well, I can tell you I didn't stop doing wrong things because I feared being grounded, or punished. In fact, when I was a kid, I deliberately kept doing wrong things, against my parents' demands, just to spite my parents. Why? Because I never believed that being punished would fix the world. It never has. It can't. I believed that retribution is nothing but an act of malice on part or behalf of a victim, that corresponds proportionately to a prior act of malice on part or on behalf of an instigator. It's tit for tat, and it's pointless. The only way I could have any power over my own choices was to stop my parents being able to have power over them. The only way to do that was to deliberately go against their wishes. It wasn't my parents who ever stopped me being a bad kid. My parents were invalidating, hurtful, jealous, explosive, at times purely maliceful people. I took all their negativity and inflicted it on other human beings, including them. I had no desire to respect them, and they had no right to my respect. Why should they? I've had people like them, and you, my entire life, tell me that I'm ungrateful, that I was wrong; "your parents looked after you", "your parents fed you". Yea, they did, but none of it was because they loved me; it was because looking after your kids is the law. Should I respect that they brought me in to the world and spent my childhood and adolescence making me feel guilty about it?

Why should anybody respect an entity that doesn't take responsibility for the creatures and conditions it created? Why should I respect a society that makes demands on people, but refuses to question whether its demands are unfair, self serving, or downright unacceptable? Why respect parents who invalidate, hurt, demean, hit, curse or fail to do a simple thing like love their kids? Why respect a God who foresees every possible creation, and chooses this one?

You think that we all walk around totally free, totally separate from the conditions of our existence. Well you're wrong. That is so far from any logical conclusion that it's totally antithetical to true.

Killers, saints; both aren't born, they're made.

 

[Omni]

Is that the best you have? 6th grade insults? You're weaker than I thought.

As far as me dying, yes, the sooner the better, because when my moment arrives, I'll be with Jesus Christ, Lord of all, and Savior of those who love Him. You on the other hand should do your very best to enjoy every single second you have in this life, because without Jesus, you're simply not going to like your eternal state of being. Not my rules, I just acknowledge them.

The difference between you and me is, you're stewing in your hatred of Christianity while I'm truly hoping and praying you see the Light and rejoice! Fair well, my lost, little friend.

I'm sorry for the post.

 

[Omni]

Anyway, Kayla, to asnwer your question, I stopped being a bad kid when someone took the time to understand why I was. It was a counsellor who had empathy for me, and I came to realize, empathy, it's a trait my parents were never able to cultivate; they had hard lives themselves, and they gave me much more than their parents ever gave them. And I hope that I continue the trend. When I was able to understand myself, when someone had empathy for me, I was able to start having empathy for my parents. I was able to start forgiving my parents.

I think if someone had had empathy for this guy, if things had been different, if things could have been different, this might not have happened.

 

[kaylagrl]

Look, I don't have the views I have because some professor brainwashed me. I'm not against punitive measures for punitive measures sake just because I'm a left-wing radicalist. My political views don't define me, my experiences do. I believe what I have said here, because it makes sense to believe it, given my experiences.

I've thought about the ideas of free will enough to know that free will isn't free will if every single condition of our existence is foreseen and allowed; if you believe in a God who can foresee all things and has power to create the world in any which way he sees it, then all choice is predetermined by the conditions of the existence he chose to create. If you follow the logical trail, it means that nothing could have happened any other way than the way it happened. God knew how it would happen, and he allowed it to happen. Therefore, it's illogical for you (being a Christian) to think you have any real choice. You don't. It's the anthropic principle. Everything you've ever done has been foreseen and permitted to take place by your God. Hitler? Stalin? Mao? Ultimately, God foresaw and permitted every piece of cosmic dust that formed this planet; God foresaw and permitted every cell in these mens' mothers' wombs; God foresaw and permitted every atrocity that they ever committed.

That's not an argument against God's existence, it's a logical deduction of God's allowance of every single shred of evil since the dawn of time. I, hitherto, haven't been able to justify following an entity like that. Why? Because it doesn't make sense to me.

You asked me why I ever had any reason to do good, in the context of growing up. Why did I ever listen to my parents? Was it fear of being punished? A projection of consequences that I didn't like? Well, I can tell you I didn't stop doing wrong things because I feared being grounded, or punished. In fact, when I was a kid, I deliberately kept doing wrong things, against my parents' demands, just to spite my parents. Why? Because I never believed that being punished would fix the world. It never has. It can't. I believed that retribution is nothing but an act of malice on part or behalf of a victim, that corresponds proportionately to a prior act of malice on part or on behalf of an instigator. It's tit for tat, and it's pointless. The only way I could have any power over my own choices was to stop my parents being able to have power over them. The only way to do that was to deliberately go against their wishes. It wasn't my parents who ever stopped me being a bad kid. My parents were invalidating, hurtful, jealous, explosive, at times purely maliceful people. I took all their negativity and inflicted it on other human beings, including them. I had no desire to respect them, and they had no right to my respect. Why should they? I've had people like them, and you, my entire life, tell me that I'm ungrateful, that I was wrong; "your parents looked after you", "your parents fed you". Yea, they did, but none of it was because they loved me; it was because looking after your kids is the law. Should I respect that they brought me in to the world and spent my childhood and adolescence making me feel guilty about it?

Why should anybody respect an entity that doesn't take responsibility for the creatures and conditions it created? Why should I respect a society that makes demands on people, but refuses to question whether its demands are unfair, self serving, or downright unacceptable? Why respect parents who invalidate, hurt, demean, hit, curse or fail to do a simple thing like love their kids? Why respect a God who foresees every possible creation, and chooses this one?

You think that we all walk around totally free, totally separate from the conditions of our existence. Well you're wrong. That is so far from any logical conclusion that it's totally antithetical to true.

Killers, saints; both aren't born, they're made.

We have a different world view and we are not going to see eye to eye.I could answer this post and you will come back at me with your worldview and never the twain shall meet. There are great men of history,philosophers,scientists,artists,writers who believed there was a God. Darwin himself believed there was a God for much of his life.I dont find myself in bad company thats for certain.

Yes,God has allowed evil to happen.We lived in a perfect world.Then sin came into the world,that is why there is evil and disease etc. God could have forced us to do his will but he gave us free choice.I understand you dont believe that and therefore its no good for me to go further on the topic.

We do agree on one thing,killers and saints arent born.Yes conditions and circumstances can affect us but it is still our choice to put up that gun and murder. We have a choice between right and wrong,its our responsibility to choose which path we will take.

 

[kaylagrl]

Anyway, Kayla, to asnwer your question, I stopped being a bad kid when someone took the time to understand why I was. It was a counsellor who had empathy for me, and I came to realize, empathy, it's a trait my parents were never able to cultivate; they had hard lives themselves, and they gave me much more than their parents ever gave them. And I hope that I continue the trend. When I was able to understand myself, when someone had empathy for me, I was able to start having empathy for my parents. I was able to start forgiving my parents.

I think if someone had had empathy for this guy, if things had been different, if things could have been different, this might not have happened.

Wow, we're having a moment after all of this! Understanding.My father grew up in an abusive home. Mental abuse,kicked out of his house by his mother when he was 14yrs old. Either Im not putting myself across properly or Im just now understanding you. I understand that there are circumstances that can change who a person is. I have a hard time having a relationship with my father because he never got help with his past.He never could open up and very few times has he opened up to me and showed me real emotion not the fence that he has built up over the years. Yes by all means if people can be helped then that is a great thing.But once someone has gone beyond the law and committed cold blooded murder I think there should be responsibility for that.They have taken innocent life,they should not be able to continue living free.They have a debt to pay.I get we still disagree there but I do think I better understand where you are coming from.Thanks for sharing that post.

 

[Omni]

Wow, we're having a moment after all of this! Understanding.My father grew up in an abusive home. Mental abuse,kicked out of his house by his mother when he was 14yrs old. Either Im not putting myself across properly or Im just now understanding you. I understand that there are circumstances that can change who a person is. I have a hard time having a relationship with my father because he never got help with his past.He never could open up and very few times has he opened up to me and showed me real emotion not the fence that he has built up over the years. Yes by all means if people can be helped then that is a great thing.But once someone has gone beyond the law and committed cold blooded murder I think there should be responsibility for that.They have taken innocent life,they should not be able to continue living free.They have a debt to pay.I get we still disagree there but I do think I better understand where you are coming from.Thanks for sharing that post.

You're welcome. I think you've had a hard life, and I know I've gone through similar things. Perhaps we didn't share the exact same circumstances, but I know those emotions: helplessness, powerlessness, fear, frustration, anger, a desire for justice to be done. I think that you have to believe that what your father put you through has been seen from your point of view. God is your empathizer, and the counsellor was mine. And I think you think that if there is no God, and nobody to see what you see, and nobody to understand what you've felt, and nobody to equalize the unfairnesses in the world, then there is no ultimate justice. If there's no ultimate justice, then everything that happened to you was just meaningless collateral damage.

You want to make it all mean something, and I can empathize with that. I understand that, because it is a relatable, human reaction to what you've gone through. The only difference between you and I is that while you developed a worldview for justice after the fact, I developed one for justice before it.

We aren't all that different.