I see what you're saying here, but let me put it this way...given a few scriptures.
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. -Romans 12:2
Now, I see how people can make this say what they want it to say, but I believe it tells us not to 'follow the crowd'. Most often, look at what the world says we should think, feel, do...and you'll find it in direct opposition to the scriptural (literal and non...not strictly either) understanding of what God would have us think, feel, do.
I guess the way I see it (and I think you may agree with too?) the world tells us many things that we should think/do/feel if we are cheated on, or have our trust broken. It seems like hardening ourselves, or building walls/fences and only letting people in so far or being slower to let people in after they(or someone "like" them) have hurt us is something the world would say. Is it also something God would say? I'm not so sure.
One of the ways this is instilled is through doubt, like you suggest, BUT...I have also found that within 'religious' circles...this idea of doubt being weakness. This is FALSE! In fact, if you don't ever call things into question, I would argue, that you never understood them, don't now, and won't until you ask, seek, try, analyse, test, and discover what something truly is or who people truly are.
I absolutely agree that God uses our questioning (or actually the reassurance we get from responses to our questioning) of ourselves to great benefit. But self-doubt and introspection seem like a different cup of tee. They don't require a second person and are strictly about trust between yourself and God. The idea of testing/proving things is something that does come directly from the bible(1 thess 5:21). But does doubting?Doing a quick search(biblegateway) I find 14 references to doubt. Of those, all of them are negative(as you noted most about doubting God), but there are none that command or encourage us to doubt or distrust our fellow man. I'm not just trying to play semantics here, I think what you are referring to as doubting is not actually what I was referring to as being a tool of the devil. I think you're referring to testing, not doubting.
Now, that said...here are a few more. Just a few, as there are many, and they speak toward this idea of evaluating things in life...including people.
I would agree with evaluating. I would say that I do a lot of it. I am an INTJ and classification is one of our top personality traits. But in classifying them, I don't need to trust them less. As mentioned previously, the only area that I struggle to trust are spiritual areas. Since this has eternal consequences, I don't group it in with earthly things (ie cheating). Since I would not be in a relationship with someone who wasn't saved, I have little fear in this area.
Stay away from a foolish man, for you will not find knowledge on his lips. (Proverbs 14:7)
A fool denies God.
Wisdom will save you from the ways of wicked men, from men whose words are perverse, who leave the straight paths to walk in dark ways, who delight in doing wrong and rejoice in the perverseness of evil, whose paths are crooked and who are devious in their ways. (Proverbs 2:12-15)
But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. (James 3:17)
Combining these two: Purity, peace-loving, considerate, submissive, merciful, impartiality and sincerity will save you from the ways of wicked men. When taken this way, when faced with a situation, you should be impartial (not responding out of your hurt), considerate (considering the other persons perspective), merciful (treating them in a way they don't necessarily deserve), peace-loving(seeking to dissipate the issue, not grow it).
Matthew 15: 1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules. ’[c] ”
10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”
12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides.[d] If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”
15 Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”
16 “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”
__________________________________________________________________
Now, that said...there are people who are good for you to be around, and others who will lead you astray.
I'm not sure I understand what you were trying to point out in this verse.
As far as trust issues and issue of this topic, one has to test, doubt, question, and understand something or someone before they can trust or not trust it.
I'm not sure that doubt should be in that list. Because doubt is a lack of trust. So you have said that before you can decide whether you should doubt or trust someone, you should doubt them. I agree that we should get to know someone to determine what level of trust to give them in spiritual matters. But when it comes to a person I'm in a relationship with, that is already established.
What we've seen...(sort of the royal 'we' here)...is that people hurt people, and this causes lack of trust in humanity. It's also, statistically, not an isolated incident, but appears to be strongly correlated. Being hurt = trust issues. Now, though not always the case, it is largely this case the majority of the time.
With ya so far.
So, from there, we're not saying that a person 'doesn't' let people in, but that they have difficulty doing so, because the most common, recurring result is being (not minorly, but seriously) hurt by doing so.
Still with you, though I believe some people had already stated that they didn't let people "back" in or that they stopped or something to that affect. Kind of beside the point I guess.
Christ calls us to be in relationship with Himself and those around us, but this issue of trust only ever appears in scripture when referencing God. Therefore; our trust of others largely becomes a matter of personal judgement.
Does it? Or does it accompany forgiveness? Is it truly forgiven a sin when still constantly "watching your back" for it to happen again?
I hear what you're saying, and respect that, but others are equally persuaded in doing what they understand as 'wise' or 'God's Will' that counteracts (our) your understand.
But that doesn't make truth any less truth. I may be wrong. That's why I am still participating. It's when I (we?) refuse to even participate that I have no interest in understanding or gaining anything from someone else's perspective. I am asking questions, and they are real questions, I don't have all of the answers.
Many like to say that they are right, and others are wrong. What happens when both people are truly close to Christ, but arrive at different places on the same issue. One thing you may find with time, is that, there are things greater than the 'boxed' way we understand them. Perhaps both could be right, even in seemingly opposing positions.
Perhaps, but how does one know if it is a case of both being right, or one being right? Should we just throw up our hands and say "maybe we're both right" whenever someone disagrees with us?
So, like I said before, we're talking about what we believe in the case of trust or lack thereof within romantic relationships as a Christian. We trust God. We try to trust others, but it's difficult, complicated, and very messy/personal.l
Wasn't the question "what trust issues do you have and how do they manifest"? If so, then the premise that trust is difficult and complicated and messy is simply untrue. Anything built upon it then must be similarly untrue. :/
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. -Romans 12:2
Now, I see how people can make this say what they want it to say, but I believe it tells us not to 'follow the crowd'. Most often, look at what the world says we should think, feel, do...and you'll find it in direct opposition to the scriptural (literal and non...not strictly either) understanding of what God would have us think, feel, do.
I guess the way I see it (and I think you may agree with too?) the world tells us many things that we should think/do/feel if we are cheated on, or have our trust broken. It seems like hardening ourselves, or building walls/fences and only letting people in so far or being slower to let people in after they(or someone "like" them) have hurt us is something the world would say. Is it also something God would say? I'm not so sure.
One of the ways this is instilled is through doubt, like you suggest, BUT...I have also found that within 'religious' circles...this idea of doubt being weakness. This is FALSE! In fact, if you don't ever call things into question, I would argue, that you never understood them, don't now, and won't until you ask, seek, try, analyse, test, and discover what something truly is or who people truly are.
I absolutely agree that God uses our questioning (or actually the reassurance we get from responses to our questioning) of ourselves to great benefit. But self-doubt and introspection seem like a different cup of tee. They don't require a second person and are strictly about trust between yourself and God. The idea of testing/proving things is something that does come directly from the bible(1 thess 5:21). But does doubting?Doing a quick search(biblegateway) I find 14 references to doubt. Of those, all of them are negative(as you noted most about doubting God), but there are none that command or encourage us to doubt or distrust our fellow man. I'm not just trying to play semantics here, I think what you are referring to as doubting is not actually what I was referring to as being a tool of the devil. I think you're referring to testing, not doubting.
Now, that said...here are a few more. Just a few, as there are many, and they speak toward this idea of evaluating things in life...including people.
I would agree with evaluating. I would say that I do a lot of it. I am an INTJ and classification is one of our top personality traits. But in classifying them, I don't need to trust them less. As mentioned previously, the only area that I struggle to trust are spiritual areas. Since this has eternal consequences, I don't group it in with earthly things (ie cheating). Since I would not be in a relationship with someone who wasn't saved, I have little fear in this area.
Stay away from a foolish man, for you will not find knowledge on his lips. (Proverbs 14:7)
A fool denies God.
Wisdom will save you from the ways of wicked men, from men whose words are perverse, who leave the straight paths to walk in dark ways, who delight in doing wrong and rejoice in the perverseness of evil, whose paths are crooked and who are devious in their ways. (Proverbs 2:12-15)
But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. (James 3:17)
Combining these two: Purity, peace-loving, considerate, submissive, merciful, impartiality and sincerity will save you from the ways of wicked men. When taken this way, when faced with a situation, you should be impartial (not responding out of your hurt), considerate (considering the other persons perspective), merciful (treating them in a way they don't necessarily deserve), peace-loving(seeking to dissipate the issue, not grow it).
Matthew 15: 1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules. ’[c] ”
10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”
12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides.[d] If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”
15 Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”
16 “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”
__________________________________________________________________
Now, that said...there are people who are good for you to be around, and others who will lead you astray.
I'm not sure I understand what you were trying to point out in this verse.
As far as trust issues and issue of this topic, one has to test, doubt, question, and understand something or someone before they can trust or not trust it.
I'm not sure that doubt should be in that list. Because doubt is a lack of trust. So you have said that before you can decide whether you should doubt or trust someone, you should doubt them. I agree that we should get to know someone to determine what level of trust to give them in spiritual matters. But when it comes to a person I'm in a relationship with, that is already established.
What we've seen...(sort of the royal 'we' here)...is that people hurt people, and this causes lack of trust in humanity. It's also, statistically, not an isolated incident, but appears to be strongly correlated. Being hurt = trust issues. Now, though not always the case, it is largely this case the majority of the time.
With ya so far.
So, from there, we're not saying that a person 'doesn't' let people in, but that they have difficulty doing so, because the most common, recurring result is being (not minorly, but seriously) hurt by doing so.
Still with you, though I believe some people had already stated that they didn't let people "back" in or that they stopped or something to that affect. Kind of beside the point I guess.
Christ calls us to be in relationship with Himself and those around us, but this issue of trust only ever appears in scripture when referencing God. Therefore; our trust of others largely becomes a matter of personal judgement.
Does it? Or does it accompany forgiveness? Is it truly forgiven a sin when still constantly "watching your back" for it to happen again?
I hear what you're saying, and respect that, but others are equally persuaded in doing what they understand as 'wise' or 'God's Will' that counteracts (our) your understand.
But that doesn't make truth any less truth. I may be wrong. That's why I am still participating. It's when I (we?) refuse to even participate that I have no interest in understanding or gaining anything from someone else's perspective. I am asking questions, and they are real questions, I don't have all of the answers.
Many like to say that they are right, and others are wrong. What happens when both people are truly close to Christ, but arrive at different places on the same issue. One thing you may find with time, is that, there are things greater than the 'boxed' way we understand them. Perhaps both could be right, even in seemingly opposing positions.
Perhaps, but how does one know if it is a case of both being right, or one being right? Should we just throw up our hands and say "maybe we're both right" whenever someone disagrees with us?
So, like I said before, we're talking about what we believe in the case of trust or lack thereof within romantic relationships as a Christian. We trust God. We try to trust others, but it's difficult, complicated, and very messy/personal.l
Wasn't the question "what trust issues do you have and how do they manifest"? If so, then the premise that trust is difficult and complicated and messy is simply untrue. Anything built upon it then must be similarly untrue. :/
Others are welcome to chime in. It's clear that my lack of trust issues is in the vast majority here.
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