Trust Issues
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But James 1:17 says "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows." If good can come out of the relationship it must be a gift from Him.
So this has become sort of question-answery now and not really consolidated into a complete position. I'll simplify as much as I can.
Everyone is untrustworthy, but trust is required for relationships
God commands us to love (a relationship) everyone
Distrust is an enemy of love and destroys relationships
An enemy of love is an enemy of God
Distrust is an enemy of God.
I am incapable of trusting completely
I should seek to be a friend of God
An enemy is not a friend
I should seek to trust completely because distrust is an enemy of God
Every good and perfect thing comes from God
God's will is perfect
Ignoring our fears and doubts and embracing God's will is perfection
Distrust increases fear and doubt and makes them harder to ignore
Distrust makes it more difficult to embrace God's will
Distrust deviates from perfection
Imperfect people should seek perfection
I am not perfect
I should seek to root out all distrust
God presents specific commands about who to exclude from the church
None of the reasons relate to someone hurting my feelings
I should seek to live my life based on God's Word to the best of my ability
Distrust as a result of hurt feelings is not a Biblical principle
I should seek to not distrust people who hurt my feelings
Now can I say that I trust perfectly? Far from it! But when we embrace distrust and call it acceptable, I truly think it is, or so nearly so, sin(see above) that it should be treated as such.
So this has become sort of question-answery now and not really consolidated into a complete position. I'll simplify as much as I can.
Everyone is untrustworthy, but trust is required for relationships
God commands us to love (a relationship) everyone
Distrust is an enemy of love and destroys relationships
An enemy of love is an enemy of God
Distrust is an enemy of God.
I am incapable of trusting completely
I should seek to be a friend of God
An enemy is not a friend
I should seek to trust completely because distrust is an enemy of God
Every good and perfect thing comes from God
God's will is perfect
Ignoring our fears and doubts and embracing God's will is perfection
Distrust increases fear and doubt and makes them harder to ignore
Distrust makes it more difficult to embrace God's will
Distrust deviates from perfection
Imperfect people should seek perfection
I am not perfect
I should seek to root out all distrust
God presents specific commands about who to exclude from the church
None of the reasons relate to someone hurting my feelings
I should seek to live my life based on God's Word to the best of my ability
Distrust as a result of hurt feelings is not a Biblical principle
I should seek to not distrust people who hurt my feelings
Now can I say that I trust perfectly? Far from it! But when we embrace distrust and call it acceptable, I truly think it is, or so nearly so, sin(see above) that it should be treated as such.
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God commands us to love everyone
You can love somebody without trusting them
God does NOT command us to be in a romantic relationship with everyone (and you said this thread is about trust in romantic relationships)
If it's God's will for me to be in a specific relationship, and I get hurt, I'm fine with it <----- has happened, and yes I'm fine with it
Determining which relationships are and are not in God's will is where people are likely to get NEEDLESSLY hurt (yes, needlessly)
God can use any situation to our good, but that doesn't mean that the original situation was part of His will
You can love somebody without trusting them
God does NOT command us to be in a romantic relationship with everyone (and you said this thread is about trust in romantic relationships)
If it's God's will for me to be in a specific relationship, and I get hurt, I'm fine with it <----- has happened, and yes I'm fine with it
Determining which relationships are and are not in God's will is where people are likely to get NEEDLESSLY hurt (yes, needlessly)
God can use any situation to our good, but that doesn't mean that the original situation was part of His will
You haven't demonstrated this:
You can love somebody without trusting them
I can accept it as a premise for the rest of your argument, but then it becomes even more hypothetical than mine!
Which is perhaps a lot of where our divergence occurs. I think love is impossible without trust.
You can love somebody without trusting them
I can accept it as a premise for the rest of your argument, but then it becomes even more hypothetical than mine!
Which is perhaps a lot of where our divergence occurs. I think love is impossible without trust.
Dude, you can love somebody and know that they're irresponsible. You can love them and know that they are lying to you. You can love them and know that they are being unfair. But you can't trust them while you know any of those things.
K
I'm confused, are we talking about forgiveness, love, or trust? Since when are all these things the same thing? The Bible doesn't even say so, the Bible tells us to be wise. It warns us about bad companies.
Proverbs 13:20
Whoever walks with the wise becomes wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm.
Proverbs 14:7
Leave the presence of a fool, for there you do not meet words of knowledge.
Psalm 26:4-5
I do not sit with men of falsehood, nor do I consort with hypocrites. I hate the assembly of evildoers, and I will not sit with the wicked.
1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
I don't know how you can read these verses (along with the ones I posted before) and don't see how God is telling us to be wise and not to trust anyone.
Proverbs 13:20
Whoever walks with the wise becomes wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm.
Proverbs 14:7
Leave the presence of a fool, for there you do not meet words of knowledge.
Psalm 26:4-5
I do not sit with men of falsehood, nor do I consort with hypocrites. I hate the assembly of evildoers, and I will not sit with the wicked.
1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
I don't know how you can read these verses (along with the ones I posted before) and don't see how God is telling us to be wise and not to trust anyone.
I'm curious about your definition of wisdom and fool. In truth, the only verse I see about trust is the 1 John one, which is specific to spiritual matters, which I have already stated is a whole separate realm since the consequences of trusting the wrong people are eternal. I can address each verse individually if you would like.
And no, I am not suggesting that love and trust are the same. But I am suggesting that love requires trust. I am also suggesting that forgiveness requires trust.
So, I am suggesting: a house is not cement, but a house is built upon cement. Trust is not love, but love is built on trust. Forgiveness is not trust, but is built upon trust.
And no, I am not suggesting that love and trust are the same. But I am suggesting that love requires trust. I am also suggesting that forgiveness requires trust.
So, I am suggesting: a house is not cement, but a house is built upon cement. Trust is not love, but love is built on trust. Forgiveness is not trust, but is built upon trust.
You haven't demonstrated this:
You can love somebody without trusting them
I can accept it as a premise for the rest of your argument, but then it becomes even more hypothetical than mine!
Which is perhaps a lot of where our divergence occurs. I think love is impossible without trust.
You can love somebody without trusting them
I can accept it as a premise for the rest of your argument, but then it becomes even more hypothetical than mine!
Which is perhaps a lot of where our divergence occurs. I think love is impossible without trust.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Uh, I can't believe that I forgot about 1 Corinthians 13:7. Love ALWAYS TRUSTS! It is literally spelled out.
I KNOW forgiveness doesn't require repentance. I wasn't talking about forgiveness in any way, shape, or form. My point was about having false confidence in people. Undeserved confidence.
Forgiveness does not require trust. Love does not require trust.
Ugh, you're going to make me be uncharacteristically wordy. You shall pay for that!
Jeremiah 12:6 ~
"Your brothers, your own family—
even they have betrayed you;
they have raised a loud cry against you.
Do not trust them,
though they speak well of you."
Jeremiah 9:4-6 ~
“Let everyone be on guard against his neighbor,
And do not trust any brother;
Because every brother deals craftily,
And every neighbor goes about as a slanderer.
5“Everyone deceives his neighbor
And does not speak the truth,
They have taught their tongue to speak lies;
They weary themselves committing iniquity.
6“Your dwelling is in the midst of deceit;
Through deceit they refuse to know Me,” declares the LORD.
Micah 7:5 ~ "Trust not in a friend, put not confidence in a companion: keep the doors of your mouth from her that lies in your bosom."
Hey. I'm the pope.
^^Do you believe that? No? Then, by definition, you don't trust me. And... by your logic, you don't love me. If you have to trust someone to love them, then you must not love the crazy guy on the street corner downtown who claims to be the messiah. If love ALWAYS trusts, then that pertains to spiritual matters, as well. Always... means always.
There is a reason that the bible doesn't say to love your neighbor with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. That love is reserved for God. He's the only one you're supposed to always trust.
You're only told to love your neighbor as yourself, and I don't think we're supposed to trust ourselves, either. The flesh does not deserve our confidence.
2 Corinthians 1:8-10 ~ "For we do not want you to be unaware, brethren, of our affliction which came to us in Asia, that we were burdened excessively, beyond our strength, so that we despaired even of life; 9indeed, we had the sentence of death within ourselves so that we would not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead; 10who delivered us from so great a peril of death, and will deliver us, He on whom we have set our hope."
Proverbs 3:5 ~ "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding"
Leaning on your own understanding... is trusting yourself, isn't it?
Forgiveness does not require trust. Love does not require trust.
Ugh, you're going to make me be uncharacteristically wordy. You shall pay for that!
Jeremiah 12:6 ~
"Your brothers, your own family—
even they have betrayed you;
they have raised a loud cry against you.
Do not trust them,
though they speak well of you."
Jeremiah 9:4-6 ~
“Let everyone be on guard against his neighbor,
And do not trust any brother;
Because every brother deals craftily,
And every neighbor goes about as a slanderer.
5“Everyone deceives his neighbor
And does not speak the truth,
They have taught their tongue to speak lies;
They weary themselves committing iniquity.
6“Your dwelling is in the midst of deceit;
Through deceit they refuse to know Me,” declares the LORD.
Micah 7:5 ~ "Trust not in a friend, put not confidence in a companion: keep the doors of your mouth from her that lies in your bosom."
Hey. I'm the pope.
^^Do you believe that? No? Then, by definition, you don't trust me. And... by your logic, you don't love me. If you have to trust someone to love them, then you must not love the crazy guy on the street corner downtown who claims to be the messiah. If love ALWAYS trusts, then that pertains to spiritual matters, as well. Always... means always.
There is a reason that the bible doesn't say to love your neighbor with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. That love is reserved for God. He's the only one you're supposed to always trust.
You're only told to love your neighbor as yourself, and I don't think we're supposed to trust ourselves, either. The flesh does not deserve our confidence.
2 Corinthians 1:8-10 ~ "For we do not want you to be unaware, brethren, of our affliction which came to us in Asia, that we were burdened excessively, beyond our strength, so that we despaired even of life; 9indeed, we had the sentence of death within ourselves so that we would not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead; 10who delivered us from so great a peril of death, and will deliver us, He on whom we have set our hope."
Proverbs 3:5 ~ "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding"
Leaning on your own understanding... is trusting yourself, isn't it?
That is "particularly wordy"??
I typed out a long and detailed response to each of your points. But in the end I realized... I have only one answer. To love God and be obedient to Him. And to do so, to love my neighbor as much as I possibly can. And in loving my neighbor as much as I possibly can, within God's will, to trust as much as I can.
My responses to your points will surely not convince you, though if you do desire such responses, let me know and I will provide them. All I can do is live my life with as much love as I can possibly muster and in so doing I may gain some level of holiness because God is love.
I'm sorry to end this so abruptly, and I hope you don't think that it was a result of me being out of responses to your points. PM me if you would find benefit in digging deeper into the scripture you presented.
I typed out a long and detailed response to each of your points. But in the end I realized... I have only one answer. To love God and be obedient to Him. And to do so, to love my neighbor as much as I possibly can. And in loving my neighbor as much as I possibly can, within God's will, to trust as much as I can.
My responses to your points will surely not convince you, though if you do desire such responses, let me know and I will provide them. All I can do is live my life with as much love as I can possibly muster and in so doing I may gain some level of holiness because God is love.
I'm sorry to end this so abruptly, and I hope you don't think that it was a result of me being out of responses to your points. PM me if you would find benefit in digging deeper into the scripture you presented.