Inconsistencies of Unbelieving Jews

[TheAristocat]

So there's a pretty big Jews for Judaism anti-missionary movement out there, and it's the counterpart to Jews for Jesus. But some of their arguments just make me scratch my head. For instance...

1. Why are they opposed to Jesus being called a Son of God when this title was used many times in different applications in the Old Testament?

2. Why are they opposed to God coming in human form? Firstly, God created Man in his image (Genesis 1:27) and, secondly, one of the men who ate with Abraham was called Yahweh/Yehovah in the Hebrew (Genesis 18:22).

3. Why do they claim that Isaiah 53's Suffering Servant is Israel when Isaiah 53:8 says that he was stricken for God's people? Is Israel being stricken for the sake of Israel?

4. Why do they say the prophecies in the Psalms are taken out of context and should be understood in terms of the psalmist's life when, firstly, psalms were known to sometimes be prophetic and, secondly, some of them describe events that never took place in David's life?

 

[TheAristocat]

Another...

5. Why are they opposed to Jesus being the Messiah just because he hasn't fulfilled all prophecies yet? If they used that same logic, then they would've been opposed to Ezekiel's prophecy against Tyre since it was only partially completed. In fact, it remained largely incomplete for hundreds of years until Alexander the Great threw its stones into the sea to make a bridge across to the island part of the city (Ezekiel 26:12).

 

[RedTent]

I have been asking Jews how they come to their decision, being they base it on scriture and scripture is all about Christ. I think their reasons are interesting.

They sift through scripture about Christ to have it come out to mean that they would not be under other rule, but their own. In Isa. 9:6 it states that a child will be born and the govenment will be on His shoulders. They assume that means they would be the nation in control. Christ is acting as a govenor, but in a way they don't accept. They wanted to be rulers in the earthly world as God's people who knew God. It was terrible to them that Romans ruled them.

They had always been the race who knew God, the gentiles had always been blind to God. They could not accept that what any gentile believed could be of God. Always, if a gentile accepted God he joined the Jewish race by going through much ceremony.

They had been taught that God is one, the idea that the one true God has other manifestations is too much for them to understand, so they apply Deut 13 telling us to not accept other Gods.

Scripture tells us that the Torah is binding forever, and anyone trying to change it is a false prophet. Although Christ completed it and explained it, he did not change it, but the pharasees said he did. Jews say this proves Christ to be false. I think this is a warning to those who insist that the new covenant means Moses is obsolete.

When we say that no one comes to the Father but through Christ, the Jews understand that differently than Christ meant it. Christ was saying that we cannot achieve salvation except through His forgiveness. The Jews quote such as Psalms 145:16 saying that "God is near to all that call on Him". Although both scriptures are true, the Jews do not see it that way.

I think it is a good thing to understand where the Jews are coming fron in their rejection of Christ. This is just a short post on a long complicated theme.

 

[terryshields]

As Jesus said Israel is deaf and blind other than Jews for Jesus and some others nothing has changed

 

[psychomom]

The words of the Lord Jesus to unbelieving Jews of His day:

John 5 (NASB)
39“You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me;

40and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.

41“I do not receive glory from men;

42but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.

43“I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another shall come in his own name, you will receive him.

44“How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?

45“Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.

46“For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me.

47“But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Sadly, the majority of Jews today do not have their hope set only in Moses.
They've gone beyond the Torah to their oral teachings and traditions.

 

[kenisyes]

They have been missing a high priest for nearly 2000 years. I can't find the Torah reference, but I am told that it says this cannot happen.

 

[terryshields]

No He appeared they just dont want to bow to Him

 

[Bookreader]

They obviously deny the deity of Christ - but there are some Christians that are not trinitarians either.

There main issue is that they don't believe Jesus was the Messiah.
Pretty simple. I disagree with them but that is why I'm a Christian and they are Jewish.
If they don't believe that then all the other stuff comes from that.

What surprises me is that people are surprised that those of a different religion do not believe in our religion.

Do we see threads wondering why hindus or buddhists don't believe Jesus is our Saviour? Of course not.
No need for head scratching - it's a different religion.

 

[loveme1]

John 20

16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 18Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

Many fail to understand that God is a Spirit and He gave the Holy Spirit without measure to the Messiah Yahshua.

 

[tribesman]

Judaism is a satanic false religion and christians ought to inform themselves about it and battle it just as much Islam.

 

[TheAristocat]

Do we see threads wondering why hindus or buddhists don't believe Jesus is our Saviour? Of course not.No need for head scratching - it's a different religion.

I think maybe you overlooked my point. I was listing arguments that they used to try to disprove Christianity. And some of those arguments are hypocritical. That's what makes me stop and wonder what they're thinking. Take another look at them. For example, their rejection that God had corporeal manifestations such as can be seen in both the Old Testament and the New.

 

[TheAristocat]

Scripture tells us that the Torah is binding forever, and anyone trying to change it is a false prophet. Although Christ completed it and explained it, he did not change it, but the pharasees said he did. Jews say this proves Christ to be false. I think this is a warning to those who insist that the new covenant means Moses is obsolete.

I wonder if this view is still around because of what the majority of Christians believe and say about Christ or if it's due to something else - the Pharisees as you say? By the way, could I get a link or reference to any evidence of the Pharisees claiming that Jesus changed the Torah?

 

[RedTent]

I wonder if this view is still around because of what the majority of Christians believe and say about Christ or if it's due to something else - the Pharisees as you say? By the way, could I get a link or reference to any evidence of the Pharisees claiming that Jesus changed the Torah?

I said the pharasees "said Christ" changed it. Those guys not only believed it, they wrote amd wrote on ways to obey it until Christ scolded them.

The torah, what it means to us, how God wants us to obey it, is not only a division among Jews and gentiles, but between Christians. God is a God of balance, we humans love the drama of extremes.

 

[RedTent]

Judaism is a satanic false religion and christians ought to inform themselves about it and battle it just as much Islam.

I don't see how you can study bible or history and come up with this statement. For instance, the Jews believed in atonement through blood, and God meant that blood as a shadow of Christ. The Hebrew word for shadow means image. They believe in God the Father who is one with the Son. The book of Romans talks a lot about the Jews, and says it is wrong that they don't accept the part of Christ who lived and died on this earth, but there is nothing of that they are to be battled.

We are to understand that Christ lived and died for us and all that means. We are to judge when there are false Gods. But we are to let God take care of judging the Jews. More, and it gets into denying what the OT tells us of God the Father and God the Son.

 

[Bookreader]

I think maybe you overlooked my point. I was listing arguments that they used to try to disprove Christianity. And some of those arguments are hypocritical. That's what makes me stop and wonder what they're thinking. Take another look at them. For example, their rejection that God had corporeal manifestations such as can be seen in both the Old Testament and the New.

No I didn't miss your point I just think they have ONE point. They do not believe Jesus was the Messiah.
Everything else follows on from that.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink is a fitting metaphor I think.

Of course it is harder to convert Jews to orthodox Christianity because of the trinity doctrine.
The same goes for muslims.
I know a guy who regularly baptises muslims (he's even ventured into Iraq several times to do it) because our church does not believe the trinity (this is not the time to discuss our differences - so I won't). Converting muslims is particularly difficult as in many muslim cultures those that leave that faith will be killed. Indeed one that was baptised was attacked with a spade and killed a couple of years ago

People from the other Abrahamic faiths find the trinity a stumbling block because they both see it as contrary to the OT (which muslims call 'the Book' I think).
I think that many Jews therefore refuse to believe Jesus was the Messiah because the idea of following Jesus is now connected with trinity and Jews for thousands of years were the monotheistic group in a pagan world. The trinity is seen by many as backdoor polytheism. I'm only saying this so you know why. I'm not arguing for or against their attitude in this post.

 

[maxwel]

In Orthodox Judaism, they don't actually believe the Old Testament;
they believe it only as it is interpreted by the Talmud.

They believe that if you aren't a Talmudic scholar,
you simply have no ability to understand the Old Testament at all.

Their beliefs are far different than most Christians assume.

 

[TheAristocat]

They do not believe Jesus was the Messiah.
Everything else follows on from that.

Including contradicting their own beliefs apparently. lol But as far as that's concerned I think Maxwel sums it up nicely.

In Orthodox Judaism, they don't actually believe the Old Testament;
they believe it only as it is interpreted by the Talmud.

 

[TheAristocat]

They have been missing a high priest for nearly 2000 years. I can't find the Torah reference, but I am told that it says this cannot happen.

Would be cool to see that reference from the Torah.

 

[RedTent]

In Orthodox Judaism, they don't actually believe the Old Testament;
they believe it only as it is interpreted by the Talmud.

They believe that if you aren't a Talmudic scholar,
you simply have no ability to understand the Old Testament at all.

Their beliefs are far different than most Christians assume.

In my efforts to understand the OT, I dug into the lifestyle of the Jews, even to trying to read the talmud. I found it to be a boring account of how they thought the OT was to be obeyed, like how far you can walk on the Sabbath. Christ said all their laws made them miss the point of the torah. I found them to all be based on the torah.

The study left me with a profound admiration for the way God taught the Hebrews to know Him along with understanding their errors in understanding what God was teaching.

 

[kenisyes]

Would be cool to see that reference from the Torah.

I found the problem. I could not find it, because I was looking for it in the KJV. Whether my KJV is wrong, or they all are, Lev. 6:15 is translated incorrectly. I compared it to the Hebrew, and it doesn't come anywhere close. Here is the link provided by Wikipedia: Leviticus 6 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre this translation is correct. Since the offering must be forever, and since it must be an heir of Aaron, the high priesthood cannot fail from Israel. I think there may be other verses of this type also. I read this verse years ago as offered by Messianic Jews to prove that there must have been a high priest appointed by God before Jerusalem fell. Jesus is the only claimant to that title.