Believers Can Fall Away

[Agricola]

Will God keep his promise based on his word or will he not.

God says he is faithfull even when we are faithless. Did God lie?

the issue is the character of God. Not us.

You seem to miss the point I make, People who rasie issue of Once Saved Always Saved, seem to be in a place that they want to stay. That place is often totally opposite place from Where God wants them to be or morally where they should be, therefore people like to be comfortable by being told that OSAS will still apply to them and they can carry on living a deliberatly sinful life, but having the nagging issue of eternal life pushed to one side.

Weather that is true and God promised it is a moot point, thats not the issue, the issue is with the person who wants to have best of both worlds, enjoying immoral lifestyles and then wanting to enjoy eternal life in heaven.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You seem to miss the point I make, People who rasie issue of Once Saved Always Saved, seem to be in a place that they want to stay. That place is often totally opposite place from Where God wants them to be or morally where they should be, therefore people like to be comfortable by being told that OSAS will still apply to them and they can carry on living a deliberatly sinful life, but having the nagging issue of eternal life pushed to one side.

yes, people can lead others to this licentious gospel. But it is no gospel. It is nt the truth of the gospel which leads to this, it is the false gospel of belief only is enough. which is not of God.

This is no more dangerous than telling someone they get saved by belief, but then must obey some sort of rule book or they will lose their salvation.

Both are false gospels from the pits of hell.

Weather that is true and God promised it is a moot point, thats not the issue, the issue is with the person who wants to have best of both worlds, enjoying immoral lifestyles and then wanting to enjoy eternal life in heaven.

and you think that person ever truly repented, and was ever saved to begin with? God knows our hearts.

The issue is Gods character.

Does he not know a persons true heart when they ask him? Will he renig on his promise (take his life eternal back?)

If either is true, Gods character is flawed.

 

[oldhermit]

The notion is destroyed in context.

The natural branches are isreal
The unnatural are the gentiles
The natural (Israel) was cut off
The Unnatural (Gentiles) have been grafted in.

The warning is this.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

The branches are Israel

Israel is blinded in PART (national Not induvidual)

the whole context of the passage concerns two people groups (Israel and Gentile)

One (israel) was cut off. One (Gentile) was grafted in. Do not boast against the branches (Israel) For if they (Israel) repent, they will be grafted back in, While if you (gentile) fall, you will be cut off.

Gods church in the OT was Israel. God cut them off, and gave the responsibility of the church to the Gentiles through paul. If we get boastfull, and make the same mistake Israel made, We can get cut off too. If they repent, They will be grafted back in..

I quite agree. However, Paul is not addressing each group as collectives. He is addressing them as individuals within each respective group This is what the language shows. He does not say, ἐπὶ δὲ ὑμεῖς...ἐπεὶ καὶ ὑμᾶς. This is how it would read if he were addressing a collective. What he says is ἐπὶ δὲ σὲ...ἐπεὶ καὶ σὺ. These are second person singular nominative and accusative. The grammar cannot be ignored if one wishes to understand the context.

 

[notuptome]

Seems the writer of Hebrews is dealing with many of the same problems we see in the church today. As we look at this passage in context we see that starting in ch 5 vs 11 he is addressing believers who were immature. He calls them dull of hearing and unskillful in the word. Unable to discern both good and evil. Struggling with doctrines of baptisms etc. These folks in Hebrews were mired in religion. Stuck in the traditions and historic worship that was not leading them to perfect knowledge in Christ.
Evidently these were teaching that if one fell away it was possible to be redeemed again. They were teaching that Christ could be re-crucified for their sins. Sounds like the practice of the roman catholic church today. Every mass is a re-crucifixion of Christ. These would have been very accustomed to continual offerings for sin. Yearly sacrifices were the norm.
If one comes to this passage with a predetermined doctrine and is unskilled in the word it is very possible to reach the incorrect conclusion that salvation can be lost. Context argues against the conclusion. There are many scriptures in Hebrews and the rest of the bible that confirm the eternal nature of salvation and the security of the believer.
How one lives is a separate issue to salvation. You can judge how another walks in the Lord but you cannot judge if one is in the Lord. Some will produce one hundred fold and some only ten fold.
Consider that Solomon writes in Eccl 3:14 ...whatever God doeth it shall be forever...

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[FIRE_of_ELIJAH]

Yes,it's indeed possible. This is the danger...when a person falls away from faith, his old-friend(demons) before he got saved will come back and bring up some more demons. However, the Lord is the Lord of many 2nd chance. He is still a thousand times willing to forgive,if you sincerely repent.

 

[Grandpa]

It seems to me that the only ones who can fall away are the ones who have faith that they can fall away.

If a person has faith that the Lord Jesus keeps them and believes that the Lord Jesus will never leave them nor forsake them, to whom else would they go?

I suppose if you believe you are still under the Law then if you break the law you have fallen away. I guess you have no choice but to preach this. At least you are consistent in your beliefs. You're wrong, but consistently wrong. You're trying to be honest to your beliefs. Its sad and pitiful, but honest.

Who is more powerful than Christ?
Who is greater than God?
If God be for us who can be against us?
The Joy of the Lord is our strength. He gives us the peace that passes all understanding.

If you don't understand this do you understand faith in the Lord Jesus Christ at all?

 

[Laodicea]

1 Corinthians 10:12 KJV
(12) Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

 

[notuptome]

1 Corinthians 10:12 KJV
(12) Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Context does not lend itself to fall from salvation but deals directly with sanctification.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[oldhermit]

Context does not lend itself to fall from salvation but deals directly with sanctification.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Without sanctification, there is no salvation. So, what is you point?

 

[notuptome]

Without sanctification, there is no salvation. So, what is you point?

What scripture do you believe teaches that? Sanctification follows salvation. We will not be fully sanctified until we are glorified together with the Lord when He appears the second time.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[oldhermit]

What scripture do you believe teaches that? Sanctification follows salvation. We will not be fully sanctified until we are glorified together with the Lord when He appears the second time.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

There cannot be one without the other.

 

[RickShafer]

What scripture do you believe teaches that? Sanctification follows salvation. We will not be fully sanctified until we are glorified together with the Lord when He appears the second time.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

This is the scripture:
I Corinthians 1:30 -
"But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom; and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption."

Notice the order.
1). Wisdom - Gospel message, God's Holy Spirit leading ours into repentance
2). Righteousness - JESUS is the righteousness of God - Atonement.
3). Sanctification - the working out of Christ's righteousness in the life of the chosen.
4). Redemption - The glorification of the saints.

Notice the order; how wisdom didn't come last and redemption first?
- Or any other order? - The order is specified. - You can't be sanctified without first being declared 'righteous' by the life of Jesus.
- - You can't be saved without the knowledge (given by the Holy Spirit), that you need a savior....and leading you to Him.
- - - And so forth, the scripture is inspired for this reason. - (So mankind wouldn't claim a co-partnership in his/her own salvation.)

 

[oldhermit]

If on looses sanctification the only thing that is left is not salvation, it is the wrath of God.

"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" Hebrews 10:26-29.

 

[RickShafer]

If on looses sanctification the only thing that is left is not salvation, it is the wrath of God.

"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" Hebrews 10:26-29.

You need to read the whole verse, you can't take part of it out.
Start at verse 9 and read through, as it was given.
The very chapter is speaking of people not being able to redeem themselves, and only Jesus could - read it.
See what sin the writer was talking about - "forsake not the assembling of yourselves together" - this was written to the church in Jerusalem. - (Same Chapter: Hebrews 10:25)
- They were going to be sieged by Titus. Those that were left behind in the city died. - Matt.24

- - What is willful sin? - Is it only commission? Or can it include sins of omission also?
- - - Who neglects to pray? - (Only the one whose heart is hardened). - So since he didn't do it willfully he is spared - (he made grievous effort to uphold the commandments to the very letter, - while neglecting actually knowing God - much as the pharisees did).
- - - - (Upholding the Law to attain salvation is addressed in the very same chapter) - Hebrews 10:8,9
- - - - - It can't be held to his account because he didn't "willfully" sin.
- - - - - - Read the whole chapter in context.

 

[oldhermit]

You need to read the whole verse, you can't take part of it out.
Start at verse 9 and read through, as it was given.
The very chapter is speaking of people not being able to redeem themselves, and only Jesus could - read it.
See what sin the writer was talking about - "forsake not the assembling of yourselves together" - this was written to the church in Jerusalem. - (Same Chapter: Hebrews 10:25)
- They were going to be sieged by Titus. Those that were left behind in the city died. - Matt.24

- - What is willful sin? - Is it only commission? Or can it include sins of omission also?
- - - Who neglects to pray? - (Only the one whose heart is hardened). - So since he didn't do it willfully he is spared - (he made grievous effort to uphold the commandments to the very letter, - while neglecting actually knowing God - much as the pharisees did).
- - - - (Upholding the Law to attain salvation is addressed in the very same chapter) - Hebrews 10:8,9
- - - - - It can't be held to his account because he didn't "willfully" sin.
- - - - - - Read the whole chapter in context.

The sin is one of rejecting what they had once accepted. The illustration is provided by the writer. Like those who under Moses set aside the law died without mercy, so too those who had once been sanctified by the blood of the covenant of Christ will be met with even more severe punishment.

 

[RickShafer]

The sin is one of rejecting what they had once accepted. The illustration is provided by the writer. Like those who under Moses set aside the law died without mercy, so too those who had once been sanctified by the blood of the covenant of Christ will be met with even more severe punishment.

The writer does indeed make it plain.
No amount of animal or human(works) sacrifice will replace the life of Christ,........ that he makes quite clear.
Now, by your view, you have to reconcile that saints only have part of Christ and not the whole.
And if part, what part of their filthy rag righteousness is going to fill up the whole?
And if so, logically that makes them co-redeemers.
Even though the writer clearly spelled out that no amount of law, or blood of animals was going to save.
Infact, that is the whole theme of the chapter. - Not to return to the law to save.

 

[oldhermit]

The writer does indeed make it plain.
No amount of animal or human(works) sacrifice will replace the life of Christ,........ that he makes quite clear.
Now, by your view, you have to reconcile that saints only have part of Christ and not the whole.
And if part, what part of their filthy rag righteousness is going to fill up the whole?
And if so, logically that makes them co-redeemers.
Even though the writer clearly spelled out that no amount of law, or blood of animals was going to save.
Infact, that is the whole theme of the chapter. - Not to return to the law to save.

I'm not sure you are getting the point. The warning of the Hebrew writer is to Christians - Those who HAD BEEN sanctified yet, who have now reject the blood of Christ and insult the Spirit of grace. To these, there remains nothing by the judgment of God. without the sanctification, there is no more salvation.

 

[RickShafer]

I'm not sure you are getting the point. The warning of the Hebrew writer is to Christians - Those who HAD BEEN sanctified yet, who have now reject the blood of Christ and insult the Spirit of grace. To these, there remains nothing by the judgment of God. without the sanctification, there is no more salvation.

I get the point clearly.
The writer has been inspired by the Holy Spirit to warn those new converts not to return to the Mosaic covenant.
As the Perfect One has fulfilled the law. - (Which no man, beast or priest could do)
- The whole chapter addresses that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1 Corinthians 10:12 KJV
(12) Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

This is a person who thinks he is standing on his own (he has made it)

A person who trusts Christ. never thinks he stands, Because it is not on him, it is on Christ. He trusts Christ to sustain him.

Thus this is a true saying, If you think you have made it.. your in danger of falling. This happens to people under law. Not to those under Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I quite agree. However, Paul is not addressing each group as collectives. He is addressing them as individuals within each respective group This is what the language shows. He does not say, ἐπὶ δὲ ὑμεῖς...ἐπεὶ καὶ ὑμᾶς. This is how it would read if he were addressing a collective. What he says is ἐπὶ δὲ σὲ...ἐπεὶ καὶ σὺ. These are second person singular nominative and accusative. The grammar cannot be ignored if one wishes to understand the context.

Some problems with this line of thinking.

in 17 you (gentiles) were grafted in is singular.

Also Isreal in vers 25 is singular. Blindness in part has happened to them.. No individual is spoken of here.

The context is Gentile Vs Israel.

We are Gentile (unless we are of Israelie descent)

Even Saved people of Israel are called Israel, Not Gentile (blind in part - not all are blind. Some of Israel are saved..)



Again.

He is warning gentiles to not make the same mistake (turn to a different Gospel. If we as gentiles turn to a different gospel. God will cut us off. and graft them back in if they repent.

Scripture actually teaches there will be a falling away, and a time when Isreal will repent, and be grafted back in..