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E
You ignore the facts.
Isreal (singular) wa saved in part.. This is not talking about induviduals.
Gentiles (in part, not all gentiles were saved) were grafted in.
Some jews were saved. MANY gentiles were saved.
In the OT many Isreal were saved, few gentiles were. the way of things were changed.
He us telling US (gentiles) not to get too puffed up. If God cut them off, he will cut us off too.
The singular noun refers to a group. Just like the singular Isreal refers to a group..
The You (singular) is the roman church, (and through the written word us) of who this letter was written to.
E
No. I believe the author is telling you (the church of rome (and us) not to boast of being grafted in. Because just as Isreal (singular) was cut off through disbelief, we can get cut off as they were
As he finishes with this to prove context.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel will be saved,[SUP][g][/SUP] as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[SUP][h][/SUP]
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
He is warning us not to be pridefull by hating on the jews.. Because we could fall under the same fate.
He is not telling us we can lose salvation, he is saying if we (the gentile church) do as they did and turn to a different Gospel. He will cut us off as he did Isreal..
As he finishes with this to prove context.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel will be saved,[SUP][g][/SUP] as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[SUP][h][/SUP]
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
He is warning us not to be pridefull by hating on the jews.. Because we could fall under the same fate.
He is not telling us we can lose salvation, he is saying if we (the gentile church) do as they did and turn to a different Gospel. He will cut us off as he did Isreal..
I do not deny that. The point I am trying to make is that neither Jews nor Gentiles are saved or lost collectively. Salvation and condemnation are granted to the individual. This makes salvation an individual responsibility. One was not saved simply because he was a Jew, nor is one saved simply because he claims to be Christian. This is why the language addresses the individual while speaking of the group as a body.
E
I am not denying this either.
I am denying this is the context of the passage.
Isreal were Gods church of the OT. they went to a different Gospel. thus was cut off as being Gods representative. Because they were cut off. The gentile church was grafted in, and given the honor of being Gods representative on earth. But the warning is that we should not be to proud. nor hate on Isreal. Because if we make the same mistake we will be cut off as they were.
Which is why he said, Isreal is blind in part. But when the fulness of the gentiles comes in. they will all be saved.
It is not about gentile induviduals being cut off. But the whole gentile church.. Just like it was not induvidual isreal being cut off. it was the whole nation.
Paul was a child of abraham, an israel.. He claimed HIS people (including him) was cut off. And the gentiles were grafted in.
Gentiles were saved all through the OT.. But Isreal was still the leaders of the church (representatives) not the gentiles where were saved.
Isreal was cut off.. Gentiles were grafted in (even though some from Israel still get saved.)
E
well I would not suggest it. I believe it is fact.
But thats not what I am trying to point out. I am trying to point out that Paul is talking to the roman church. the singular "you" is the roman church, Not individuals inside that church. Many of whom may or may not even be saved..
The letter was written to them. they are the singular you..
Just like Isreal, (if he was talking to them) would be the singular "you" which Got cut off (even though not all of them were unsaved because of unbelief)
Israel did not lose salvation.(they are a nation) they lost the benefit of being the church of God.
But thats not what I am trying to point out. I am trying to point out that Paul is talking to the roman church. the singular "you" is the roman church, Not individuals inside that church. Many of whom may or may not even be saved..
The letter was written to them. they are the singular you..
Just like Isreal, (if he was talking to them) would be the singular "you" which Got cut off (even though not all of them were unsaved because of unbelief)
Israel did not lose salvation.(they are a nation) they lost the benefit of being the church of God.
This is not how Greek grammar functions. Any time the collective is addressed you will find a plural pronoun is used; for example: Matt. 25:24 ὁ βασιλεὺς ἐρεῖ αὐτοῖς· ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν - "And the King will say to them, truly I say to you... ." Here, ὑμῖν - 'you', 'all of you', or 'each of you' is dative second person plural. John 6:53 εἶπεν οὖν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν - "Therefore Jesus said to them, truly truly I say to you... ." I can show you numerous examples of this type of construction. This is certainly not the same structure you find in our text in Hebrews 10.
An example of a singular address is John 13:38 - ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι - "Truly truly I say to you... ." σοι is the dative case second person singular pronoun 'to you'.
I cannot think of an example where the collective is ever addressed with a singular pronoun. I could be wrong. If you can find such an example I would be interested in it.
An example of a singular address is John 13:38 - ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι - "Truly truly I say to you... ." σοι is the dative case second person singular pronoun 'to you'.
I cannot think of an example where the collective is ever addressed with a singular pronoun. I could be wrong. If you can find such an example I would be interested in it.
I do not know where you studied Koine Greek, but you have your declensions wrong, oldhermit!
σύ is the NOMINATIVE pronoun singular second person.
σέ is the ACCUSATIVE pronoun singular second person.
σου is the GENITIVE pronoun singular second person.
σοι is the DATIVE pronoun singular second person.
It really detracts from what you say when you mix up such basic Greek as the difference between the singular "you" in the nominative and accusative cases.
Besides the fact that I can find no reference to where these pronouns appear anywhere in Hebrew 6 in the Greek. If you are speaking about a passage somewhere else, please put the references in so I can look it up in the Greek and see what it says. OK? Thanks!
(Just for reference: New Testament Greek: pronouns, accusative, dative, genitive)
σύ is the NOMINATIVE pronoun singular second person.
σέ is the ACCUSATIVE pronoun singular second person.
σου is the GENITIVE pronoun singular second person.
σοι is the DATIVE pronoun singular second person.
It really detracts from what you say when you mix up such basic Greek as the difference between the singular "you" in the nominative and accusative cases.
Besides the fact that I can find no reference to where these pronouns appear anywhere in Hebrew 6 in the Greek. If you are speaking about a passage somewhere else, please put the references in so I can look it up in the Greek and see what it says. OK? Thanks!
(Just for reference: New Testament Greek: pronouns, accusative, dative, genitive)
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