The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification

[Skinski7]

Well okay then, But you have to understand that from what I have seen on here, is that a lot people are claiming that the cross is insufficient and that man has to add stuff to it to make it perfect. Such as you must be baptised in water, or baptised in the Holy Spirit, Or you must keep the passover and feast of tabernacles. You know they are even blowing the old trumpets that the Israelites would blow at the feast of trumpets. Like it some trump card on Christ and Him Crucified. Jesus said "it is finished" there is nothing else. The veil was torn into. There is no work that we can do. Nothing we do will be accepted by God. He only looks for the blood and then He will passover us. Jesus is my righteousness, Jesus is my sanctification, Jesus is my Justification. By the faith I was Given from Him and by His Grace and nothing of myself, lest I should Boast, I can only boast in Jesus christ. Now with that said, I strive to live according to his word, but I must rely on Him to do so, Therefore again I cannot boast, because it not me, but rather Him in me and all praise and glory goes to Him. AMEN and AMEN.

When Jesus said "it is finished" it was in the context of His sin offering being made to God, not in a context where those seeking reconciliation "do nothing except trust in 'it is finished.'"

The boast was in "keeping the law" as well as being a "blood descendent of Abraham." The Pharisees upheld their claim of righteousness in fleshly things, ie. rule keeping and genealogy. Thus in the parable of the Pharisee and the sinner we see a proud man boasting in "keeping the rules of the law" and a "broken sinner pleading for mercy."

Jesus taught to STRIVE to enter in at the strait gate and narrow way and for some reason people have thrown that teaching right out the window due to believing that Paul teaches that one simply "trusts in the provision of the cross." It is a most monstrous error.

The teaching of Jesus apply. Jesus meant exactly what He said and those who dismiss His teachings for something else are in grave danger.

The cross of Jesus Christ is participatory. Read Romans chapter 6 for Paul teaches that...

1. We die with Christ.
2. We die to the service of sin.
3. We are raised up with Christ.
4. We are raised up to the service of righteousness.

None of that happens without us DOING something and that something IS NOT passively trusting in a provision and waiting on God.

Genuine faith is an ACTIVE MOVER. Noah's genuine faith MOVED him to BUILD the Ark. Abraham's genuine faith MOVED him to do the DEEDS of faith.

A genuine believer's genuine faith will MOVE them to forsake all and seek the pearl of great price and that involves forsaking the service of sin and yielding to God. Faith is TRUSTING GOD and GIVING ONESELF OVER TO GOD thus where there is genuine faith there is ALWAYS obedience.

Thus saving faith manifests DOING the word.

Jesus and Paul are in perfect agreement. Jesus didn't use the word "grace" but Jesus preached grace in that He preached God's mercy, leading and empowerment.



Now here is my question for you.

When you say, "Now with that said, I strive to live according to his word, but I must rely on Him to do so, Therefore again I cannot boast, because it not me, but rather Him in me and all praise and glory goes to Him."

Are you making that statement within a context that "striving" COMES AFTER initial salvation? Or is striving a CONDITION of salvation itself?

 

[Skinski7]

I believe that Christ came in the flesh, physical flesh, that was and is perfect, the only perfect flesh, after the first Adam, being the second Adam.

Clearly you believe that the "flesh" of Jesus was different to your "flesh." Please explain this difference and where does the Bible teach this difference?

So whenever I thought about stopping a sin consciously, I ended up doing that sin.
Now when I gave up trying and consciously started trusting God that god had already taken that and all sin away back at the cross, then I was and am walking in the Spirit of God where sin is impossible to occur.

If it is true that the "cessation of sin" has NOTHING to do with "consciously refraining" then WHY does the Bible make statements like this...

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Surely "departing from iniquity," "purging oneself" and "fleeing lust" are CONSCIENCE CHOICES. How do you rationalise such statements in Scripture?

Didn't Noah "trust in God" AND "consciously CHOOSE" to build the Ark? I don't see it implied that Noah's deeds were in any manner "automatic."

Are you not alluding to an "automatic stopping of sin" if one simply "confesses and then accepts they are forgiven." It appears to me that your doctrine makes an allowance for a vile sinner to merely "confess their sin" and yet "keep doing those sins" and yet is still in a forgiven state.

Do you believe in a mixed state of "being forgiven" whilst one is still "manifesting wickedness"?

I'm curious to understand this.

 

[just-me]

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[/SIZE]
Do you believe in a mixed state of "being forgiven" whilst one is still "manifesting wickedness"?

I'm curious to understand this.

This might help you to sort it out:Romans 7:14-25 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul was a Christian when he wrote this. My God bless you.Luke 11:9-10 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

 

[Skinski7]

Just-me,

By asserting that a Christian is "carnal and sold under sin" completely undermines what salvation actually is.

Have you ever considered that salvation is more than some positional state where one is left carnal and sold under sin?



If Jesus came to set us free from sin (Mat 1:21, Joh 8:34-36) how is it that one is free and yet still a slave? How do you reconcile such a contradiction?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If Jesus came to set us free from sin (Mat 1:21, Joh 8:34-36) how is it that one is free and yet still a slave? How do you reconcile such a contradiction?

That is the mystery of the faith that you haven't yet grasped.

 

[Skinski7]

That is the mystery of the faith that you haven't yet grasped.

What kind of answer is that? "It's a mystery and you do not understand it yet."

Freedom and Slavery are OPPOSITES.
Light and Darkness are OPPOSITES.
Serving Sin and Serving Righteousness are OPPOSITES.
Receiving the Implanted Word and Rejecting the Implanted Word are OPPOSITES.
Repent and Turn to God and Not Repenting and Not Turning to God are OPPOSITES.

Yet it is a "mystery to be understood" to make these opposites into parallels?

The Mysteries of God don't ask us to throw reason out the window in order that we blindly swallow logical contradictions.


When Jesus said that He sets us FREE INDEED He meant EXACTLY THAT.

FREE INDEED is the opposite of being CARNAL AND SOLD UNDER SIN.





The wretch of Romans 7 is an illustration made by Paul of why one needs to abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2-4) in order to be made righteous as opposed to seeking righteousness in being under the law.

In other words...

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


The Romans wretch was not "dead to the law by the body of Christ." The wretch was "alive to the law and in bondage to sin."

 

[know1]

Please go to 1John 1:1 onward and read in context this was a letter written to a pastor that had written a letter to John on the island of Patmos. This Pastor had Gnostics in his gathering that were spreading around that Christ did not come in the flesh and that all flesh is sin, and that is why he could not have come in the flesh, Secondly because they did not believe Christ came in the flesh because all sin is of the flesh, that since they believe in Christ they have redeemed bodies, and no sin nature.

That is what John wrote about, and that if one would confess that they do have unredeemed flesh then they receive the forgiveness provided at the cross, now they also needed to see that Christ did actually come in the flesh, otherwise why would John have started out with

Don't need to reread 1 John again. Confession of sins will not cause one to be born again. It will however cause a child of God to receive forgiveness from God, but it will not save the sap. Although, confessing is basically repenting, for the most part. But repenting of ones sins, aside from unbelief, will not save a person either. Only a confession of faith in Jesus as lord, will do that.

 

[RickShafer]

Here's Skinski perfecting the meaning again.
To claim those who know they are saved from eternal judgement by nothing other than the clemency of God are reprobates.
As if they aren't changed by that same Spirit of grace, by the renewing of their mind.
As if that also isn't totally a work of God since mankind is altogether without hope.
It is the realization that Jesus is that only perfect person who ever lived on this earth that IS the faith that transforms the soul of the BELIEVER.
As long as one thinks they are earning their own salvation they are miserably relying on works to save them.
Cut, slice, dice, mulch, or piece it any other way, but that is what you are doing-(relying on your own righteousness): - in the final analysis.

 

[just-me]

Just-me,

By asserting that a Christian is "carnal and sold under sin" completely undermines what salvation actually is.

Have you ever considered that salvation is more than some positional state where one is left carnal and sold under sin?



If Jesus came to set us free from sin (Mat 1:21, Joh 8:34-36) how is it that one is free and yet still a slave? How do you reconcile such a contradiction?

Romans 7:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

I didn't assert this.. the scriptures did. What the scripture says is true. Paul wrote this, being a convert through Christ Jesus. He was explaining the battle that he had within himself to die daily as scripture says.

1 Corinthians 15:30-31 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
[SUP]31 [/SUP]I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
Luke 9:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Jesus said this clearly stating our carnality is to be killed on a daily basis. If we deny this nature we have a problem.
1 John 1:8-9 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John wrote this as a believer in Christ Jesus. He said; "If WE say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. He was including himself. Now the following is in the same book, by the same man. It looks like it's contradicting, but it's not if we understand the truth.
1 John 3:4-6 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

 

[Skinski7]

Romans 7:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

I didn't assert this.. the scriptures did. What the scripture says is true. Paul wrote this, being a convert through Christ Jesus. He was explaining the battle that he had within himself to die daily as scripture says.

1 Corinthians 15:30-31 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
[SUP]31 [/SUP]I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
Luke 9:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Jesus said this clearly stating our carnality is to be killed on a daily basis. If we deny this nature we have a problem.
1 John 1:8-9 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John wrote this as a believer in Christ Jesus. He said; "If WE say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. He was including himself. Yet you snip those two verses from the intended context. Why is that?

1Joh 1:8-9 are presented by John within the context of approaching God with a TRUE HEART (Heb 10:22) whereby one is COMPLETELY HONEST about their rebellion. In other words they are no longer hiding their sin...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

One cannot approach God covering their sin. It is those who confess and forsake their sin who shall have mercy. That is not what you are teaching, you are isolating two verses from the context in order to defend a premise of ongoing iniquity within a Christian. Here is the context of John...


1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. [The cleansing by the blood is of ALL SIN and it is conditioned on WALKING IN THE LIGHT]
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [This is cleansing of ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS yet you use it as an ongoing perpetual cleansing of an ongoing state of iniquity. In other words your theology denies that God can truly set you free from sin.]
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Your presentation of 1Joh 1:8-9 looks like it is contradicting 1Joh 3:4-6 because IT IS CONTRADICTING IT. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck it probably IS a duck.

Those born of God are MANIFEST to the world by their walk.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The wretch of Romans 7 is carnal and sold under sin. Sin is STILL his master. He still serves sin.

Those who have been set free indeed by Jesus Christ are no longer under the bondage nor the dominion of sin.

The Romans wretch was a slave to whom he obeyed. He needed to die with Christ in order to be raised up with Him whereby the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ would set Him free from the law of sin and death. If you sin (sin unto death ie. rebellion) you will most certainly perish.

 

[just-me]

Originally posted by Just-me
1 John 1:8-9 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John wrote this as a believer in Christ Jesus. He said; "If WE say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. He was including himself.

Yet you snip those two verses from the intended context. Why is that?

1Joh 1:8-9 are presented by John within the context of approaching God with a TRUE HEART (Heb 10:22) whereby one is COMPLETELY HONEST about their rebellion. In other words they are no longer hiding their sin...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

One cannot approach God covering their sin. It is those who confess and forsake their sin who shall have mercy. That is not what you are teaching, you are isolating two verses from the context in order to defend a premise of ongoing iniquity within a Christian. Here is the context of John...


1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. [The cleansing by the blood is of ALL SIN and it is conditioned on WALKING IN THE LIGHT]
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [This is cleansing of ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS yet you use it as an ongoing perpetual cleansing of an ongoing state of iniquity. In other words your theology denies that God can truly set you free from sin.]
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Your presentation of 1Joh 1:8-9 looks like it is contradicting 1Joh 3:4-6 because IT IS CONTRADICTING IT. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck it probably IS a duck.

Those born of God are MANIFEST to the world by their walk.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The wretch of Romans 7 is carnal and sold under sin. Sin is STILL his master. He still serves sin.

Those who have been set free indeed by Jesus Christ are no longer under the bondage nor the dominion of sin.

The Romans wretch was a slave to whom he obeyed. He needed to die with Christ in order to be raised up with Him whereby the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ would set Him free from the law of sin and death. If you sin (sin unto death ie. rebellion) you will most certainly perish.

So, let me see if I’m reading you right. Are you really saying that believers in Christ don’t have to die daily because they are righteous? If that is the case, then Paul wasn’t talking about himself to the Romans. If Paul was talking about himself to the Romans, then I suppose you see the scripture as him being a wretch in the past, and the Bible has been translated incorrectly leading us to believe that he was talking about his present state. If Paul was talking about himself in his present state, then what you are saying is that he is the wretch. That understanding would cause me to reject all of what he wrote to the Gentiles as incorrect. Just so I understand you right, are you saying that covering of one’s sins is the same thing as dying to them? To me, covering one’s sins means to hide them, then that makes them a hypocrite. So if you (arbitrarily speaking) are acknowledging that you have no more sin because of your salvation, you are perfect and the human nature of iniquity is totally gone forever.


1 Corinthians 15:30-31 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
[SUP]31 [/SUP]I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
Luke 9:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

 

[zone]

there's nothing wrong with pursuing righteousness under the Law.
in Y'shua we are now able to obey the commandments of the Law because we love him.
Y'shua is the same yesterday today and tomorrow and He didn't change the Law.
only those who don't know Yahweh would suggest He has changed the Law.
the New Covenant is merely a renewal of the Old.

this is my opinion and no one has a right to argue with it.
please do not reply to this in the flesh,

but God Bless you all in Yahweh

 

[just-me]

there's nothing wrong with pursuing righteousness under the Law.
in Y'shua we are now able to obey the commandments of the Law because we love him.
Y'shua is the same yesterday today and tomorrow and He didn't change the Law.
only those who don't know Yahweh would suggest He has changed the Law.
the New Covenant is merely a renewal of the Old.

this is my opinion and no one has a right to argue with it.
please do not reply to this in the flesh,

but God Bless you all in Yahweh

Well said! There are several covenants in the old testament. One builds upon another, but none are negated. Jesus is the finality (fulfillment) of them all so that we see a full and trustworthy picture of truth through Him. Well said! Well said!
Philippians 4:8-9 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Well said! There are several covenants in the old testament. One builds upon another, but none are negated. Jesus is the finality (fulfillment) of them all so that we see a full and trustworthy picture of truth through Him. Well said! Well said!

.................................................

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

there's nothing wrong with pursuing righteousness under the Law.
in Y'shua we are now able to obey the commandments of the Law because we love him.
Y'shua is the same yesterday today and tomorrow and He didn't change the Law.
only those who don't know Yahweh would suggest He has changed the Law.
the New Covenant is merely a renewal of the Old.

this is my opinion and no one has a right to argue with it.
please do not reply to this in the flesh,

but God Bless you all in Yahweh

uh zone... G-d Bless... k? thx

 

[just-me]

View attachment 52833
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Does this mean that the joke is on me?

 

[Hoffco]

This is so important for us to see today, the truth of "your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope" 1Thes 1:3
The gospel of the fundamental church of the last century has been mostly a false, apostate message of the end time before the return of christ. 2Thes.2:3 A big thank you to Skinsky7 for the great job of pointing this out. I will add more to the doct. of justification: Justification is first by Grace,Rom.3:24 Titus 3;7 Rom.5:15,18 Eph.2:1-10
Jusitification is secondly by faith,Rom.3:22,26 ; 5:1 Gal.3:6. 11-14 Eph.1:13 ; 2:6,8 Acts 11:21 ; 28:27
Justification is thirdly by works. Jh 3:21 ; 5:28-29 ;12:24-26 Mt.7:14-27 ; 12:33-37 ; Mt. 1-46 Rom.2:4-13 ; 5:21 ; 6:14-23 ; 8:4-14 Lk.24:47 Acts 2:38 ; 11:18 ; 26:20 2Tim.2:25 James 2:22-24.
The mystery of salvation is, we are chosen in Christ and born again by sovereign acts of God's love and power (grace)
2Cor.5:17 Titus 3:5; Then we can and will, repent, trust, and obey Jesus for salvation. Lk.24;47 Jh.3:16-21 Heb. 5:9
Col.1:26-27
Praise God for so great salvation. Your brother in Christ, Hoffco
A must read is: None dare call it heresy, by A W Tozer

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is so important for us to see today, the truth of "your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope" 1Thes 1:3
The gospel of the fundamental church of the last century has been mostly a false, apostate message of the end time before the return of christ. 2Thes.2:3 A big thank you to Skinsky7 for the great job of pointing this out. I will add more to the doct. of justification: Justification is first by Grace,Rom.3:24 Titus 3;7 Rom.5:15,18 Eph.2:1-10
Jusitification is secondly by faith,Rom.3:22,26 ; 5:1 Gal.3:6. 11-14 Eph.1:13 ; 2:6,8 Acts 11:21 ; 28:27
Justification is thirdly by works. Jh 3:21 ; 5:28-29 ;12:24-26 Mt.7:14-27 ; 12:33-37 ; Mt. 1-46 Rom.2:4-13 ; 5:21 ; 6:14-23 ; 8:4-14 Lk.24:47 Acts 2:38 ; 11:18 ; 26:20 2Tim.2:25 James 2:22-24.
The mystery of salvation is, we are chosen in Christ and born again by sovereign acts of God's love and power (grace)
2Cor.5:17 Titus 3:5; Then we can and will, repent, trust, and obey Jesus for salvation. Lk.24;47 Jh.3:16-21 Heb. 5:9
Col.1:26-27
Praise God for so great salvation. Your brother in Christ, Hoffco
A must read is: None dare call it heresy, by A W Tozer

1. Justification is of grace through faith ALONE.
2. Anyone who adds works to justification is preaching a false gospel of a self mediating, self made, Self inspired gospel which is not from God (we have to earn it)
3. As Scripture so plainly teaches. Works are a RESULT of justification. The largest proof of this is eph 2: 8 - 10. We are saved (justified) by grace through faith. and NOT OF OURSELVES (WORKS) lest anyone should boast (be proud, or take credit) And those who have been saved have been created (made new creatures) FOR GOOD WORKS.

The works are a result of salvation. NOT a part of salvation. Otherwise salvation is not of grace.

grace and works can never intertwine, If it is works, it can not be of grace, and vice versa. As Paul so clearly tells us

 

[homwardbound]

[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]Clearly you believe that the "flesh" of Jesus was different to your "flesh." Please explain this difference and where does the Bible teach this difference?



If it is true that the "cessation of sin" has NOTHING to do with "consciously refraining" then WHY does the Bible make statements like this...
[/SIZE][/FONT]
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Surely "departing from iniquity," "purging oneself" and "fleeing lust" are CONSCIENCE CHOICES. How do you rationalise such statements in Scripture?

Didn't Noah "trust in God" AND "consciously CHOOSE" to build the Ark? I don't see it implied that Noah's deeds were in any manner "automatic."

Are you not alluding to an "automatic stopping of sin" if one simply "confesses and then accepts they are forgiven." It appears to me that your doctrine makes an allowance for a vile sinner to merely "confess their sin" and yet "keep doing those sins" and yet is still in a forgiven state.

Do you believe in a mixed state of "being forgiven" whilst one is still "manifesting wickedness"?

I'm curious to understand this.

Only God can reveal to you and or anyone else as they grow in God's amazing gift.
Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, that is how he was in sinless flesh and is why none other can be perfect in and by their flesh before or after the Cross
I say this because all sin by Christ at the cross has been condemned to the flesh
[h=3]Romans 8:3[/h]King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

And by this Christ is able to present all the believers as :

[h=3]Colossians 1:19-24[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
[SUP]22 [/SUP]In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

 

[homwardbound]

Just-me,

By asserting that a Christian is "carnal and sold under sin" completely undermines what salvation actually is.

Have you ever considered that salvation is more than some positional state where one is left carnal and sold under sin?



If Jesus came to set us free from sin (Mat 1:21, Joh 8:34-36) how is it that one is free and yet still a slave? How do you reconcile such a contradiction?

When one continues to not believe that by Christ that they are not dead to sinful flesh, when according to God they are, which you seem to refute, yet I am not sure this is what you mean, but here it is
[h=3]Romans 6:4[/h]King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

[h=3]Romans 6:11[/h]King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]11 [/SUP]Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[h=3]Romans 8:1-2[/h]King James Version (KJV)

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.