Did Christ cancel the OT, or teach us how to use it?

[zone]

John 4
21Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

39Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.” 40So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days. 41And many more believed because of his word. 42They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”

43After the two days he departed for Galilee. 44 (For Jesus himself had testified that a prophet has no honor in his own hometown.) 45So when he came to Galilee, the Galileans welcomed him, having seen all that he had done in Jerusalem at the feast. For they too had gone to the feast.

 

[zone]

This interpretation is what I am talking about. What is the old covenant that is old? It is the entire sacrificial system, every bit of it. It was based on a reflection of what God have happen in our time. Something has to be there to have a reflection of it. What the reflection was of they could not see, because of the time. There was a new way, and whoever wrote Hebrews was explaining to the Hebrews that they needed to use the new way, it was the right way. All of it was the way of growth. The people he wrote to could still be Jews and grow with Christ. But they needed to use Christ and the Holy Spirit.

But today's church is wiping out much, much more than what God says to wipe out.

RedTent.

is the Gospel enough to save a sinner?
is the Holy Spirit capable of sanctifying and teaching that saved person?

ALSO: WAS JESUS PRESENT AT CREATION?

John 1:3
All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.

 

[RedTent]

No, It is NOT about laws and feasts and any of the other stuff.

It is about having a personal relationship with God.

Before (in the OT) that was the only way man could have a relationship. Because Christ had not died yet. Today, we do not need a bunch of religious ceremony and feasts or anything, We just walk daily with God as we would our parents or our friends.

Thats what Christ came to do. Not only to save us, But give us a chance to relate to him like he originally intended it.

Do you think adam and Eve walked with God with religious feasts and ceremonies? That is what God restored us to. That type of relationship.

Why do people always want to relate God with things and not just relate to him as a loving father!

God talks through, us, in the OT and NT, but not in all these things, He died so we would not HAVE to do them anymore!

Here we go again!! Saying that scripture doesn't talk about feasts and laws, because Jesus is the focus. It does talk about those things in addition to saying Christ is the focus. Even a secular book could tell you the heart of a story and still tell you of other things.

It all amounts to a personal relationship, that is the way God is. Because I have a personal relationship with God means I want to know more about Him, not the other way around. It speaks of a bunch of religious ceremonies, although it never mentions Christmas although that is about Christ's birth. I am sure it is OK with you that the church talks of Christmas, yet it isn't OK to talk of "a bunch of religious ceremonies"?

God often tells of how things in our physical world relate to the spiritual. He gave rainbows, that is a thing. He gave physical ways to express love, like do not steal. We have to do something physical not to steal. God does talk to us through our humanness. We are to make it in subjection to God. God uses parables about things to show spiritual truths.

God gave the religious feast as a training tool for us to know His plan of salvation. It was done after the flood and is in scripture that was God breathed. We are to learn about them, that is in the New Testament. They are not salvation at all, they are a training tool for us to learn about God's plan.

 

[thecreationtutor]

Sorry the Bible is one complete story of God, sovereign over all, and above all: "I Am the Lord, I change not" it's always been Gospel, grace giving Faith

And usually, people who don't understand this are either in licence or in legalism

 

[zone]

Here we go again!! Saying that scripture doesn't talk about feasts and laws, because Jesus is the focus. It does talk about those things in addition to saying Christ is the focus. Even a secular book could tell you the heart of a story and still tell you of other things.

It all amounts to a personal relationship, that is the way God is. Because I have a personal relationship with God means I want to know more about Him, not the other way around. It speaks of a bunch of religious ceremonies, although it never mentions Christmas although that is about Christ's birth. I am sure it is OK with you that the church talks of Christmas, yet it isn't OK to talk of "a bunch of religious ceremonies"?

God often tells of how things in our physical world relate to the spiritual. He gave rainbows, that is a thing. He gave physical ways to express love, like do not steal. We have to do something physical not to steal. God does talk to us through our humanness. We are to make it in subjection to God. God uses parables about things to show spiritual truths.

God gave the religious feast as a training tool for us to know His plan of salvation. It was done after the flood and is in scripture that was God breathed. We are to learn about them, that is in the New Testament. They are not salvation at all, they are a training tool for us to learn about God's plan.

do we have to search around every Friday night for packets of yeast in our cupboards to know what sin is?

do you plan to enlighten us on the RITUALS we tossed out (or Constantine tossed out; or Luther or whoever)?

WHAT RITUALS?

like this?:

please just list them!!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here we go again!! Saying that scripture doesn't talk about feasts and laws, because Jesus is the focus. It does talk about those things in addition to saying Christ is the focus. Even a secular book could tell you the heart of a story and still tell you of other things.

Here we go again, Have to go back to practice something which looked forward. to something which already took place.

do you honestly think God thinks your more holy than the person who speaks with him on a daily basis, and spends their very day focusing on him, yet does non of the OT feasts?? if you think so. your bearing toward phariseeism.

It all amounts to a personal relationship, that is the way God is. Because I have a personal relationship with God means I want to know more about Him, not the other way around. It speaks of a bunch of religious ceremonies, although it never mentions Christmas although that is about Christ's birth. I am sure it is OK with you that the church talks of Christmas, yet it isn't OK to talk of "a bunch of religious ceremonies"?

Oh it does?? Poor abraham and Noah and all those other people that had no opportunity to have any relationship with God because they did not have these things. they must have missed out.

what does christmas have to do with celebrating a feast which had to do with what God did for Isreal?? sometimes people do not make any sense.

God often tells of how things in our physical world relate to the spiritual. He gave rainbows, that is a thing. He gave physical ways to express love, like do not steal. We have to do something physical not to steal. God does talk to us through our humanness. We are to make it in subjection to God. God uses parables about things to show spiritual truths.

lol. People. by their very moral nature God put in them, know it is a sin to steal. That is what makes us moral people, and separates us from other creatures. study romans 1.

God gave the religious feast as a training tool for us to know His plan of salvation. It was done after the flood and is in scripture that was God breathed. We are to learn about them, that is in the New Testament. They are not salvation at all, they are a training tool for us to learn about God's plan.

no. God gave THEM these feast so they would know HIM when he came.

when he came, the feasts no longer had a significance.. He gave us new things, like baptism, communion, the HS

 

[zone]

no. God gave THEM these feast so they would know HIM when he came.

 

[unclefester]

Here we go again, Have to go back to practice something which looked forward. to something which already took place.

do you honestly think God thinks your more holy than the person who speaks with him on a daily basis, and spends their very day focusing on him, yet does non of the OT feasts?? if you think so. your bearing toward phariseeism.



Oh it does?? Poor abraham and Noah and all those other people that had no opportunity to have any relationship with God because they did not have these things. they must have missed out.

what does christmas have to do with celebrating a feast which had to do with what God did for Isreal?? sometimes people do not make any sense.



lol. People. by their very moral nature God put in them, know it is a sin to steal. That is what makes us moral people, and separates us from other creatures. study romans 1.



no.God gave THEM these feast so they would know HIM when he came.

when He came, the feasts no longer had a significance.. He gave us new things, like baptism, communion, the HS

Amen EG. It astounds me that this truth is lost on so many

 

[crossnote]

There was scripture they could use. The Jews had tried to get these pagans to do everything they did in ways they worshipped as the main idea of worshipping Christ and God. We have whole scripture books against that being what Christ is about. This new movement took those scriptures to make them the creed for their new ideas of God, they changed the teaching of our new growth possible through Christ to a teaching to ignore God principles.

Now, our world has gone through the holocaust, saying the Jews should all be killed. We were startled at someone killing them. Then things that were prophesied for the last days started happening for the first time and Jerusalem became current news. There was a finding of ancient writings that had been lost in some caves, almost in plain view for thousands of years. Scholars went to work on them and found it opened up ancient language. That opened up the ability to understand items they had found over the years about ancient people. This led to a better understanding of what God was teaching in the OT. This led to a movement in the family of God to include more OT teachings as they learn about Christ.

This runs along the lines most cults take..."All these years until now you have had distorted/incomplete/tampered with, etc. scriptures but now we have the real truth''. blah blah
It's like there hasn't been Christ's Church from 350AD til circa 1948. I don't buy it.

 

[Nick01]

It's a tricky topic, but I side with most people here who say that much of the OT regulations no longer apply, or at least they are no longer binding as requirements for covenant membership on all people. There are several reasons for this.

1. The OT regulations are primarily prophetic in nature, talking about and modelling a future kingdom, and specifically the Messianic ruler who will bring in this kingdom. This is affirmed by Jesus in regards to the announcement ministry of John the Baptist (Matthew 11:11-15) and of himself (Luke 24:25-27), as well as by eyewitness disciples (John 1:45, Acts 10:39-43, Acts 28:23) and by Paul (Acts 24:14-15, Romans 3:21)
2. The argument from Matthew 5 turns primarily on what we take the word 'fulfill' to mean. It is interesting to note that every other use of the word fulfill (πληρόω) in the gospel of Matthew is always to do with prophecy, and specifically prophetic eschatology. (cf Matthew 2:14-17, Matthew 4:14, Matthew 8:17, etc). Therefore, while it is fair to say that Jesus is not baldly saying that he has fulfilled the law in the sense that it is now 'vanishing', it is almost certain that he has in view a fulfilment in the sense that the Law and the Prophets are texts which are primarily about him, and which it is his job to exemplify and 'complete'

3. The Council of Jerusalem and Paul are quite explicit in repealing much of the OT regulation in favour of Gentile admission into the faith (Acts 15, Galatians 2). There are a lot of reasons given and argued in the NT for this, but the main ones seem to be:
a) the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on Gentiles in advance of any ritual cleansing or covenant rite, but only subsequent to following Christ as Lord This was understood, particularly from Joel, as the eschatological next step in refining covenant membership (Acts 2:14-41), in kind of the same way as the law being written on peoples hearts.
b) the faith of Abraham, the promise of God and the crediting of righteousness in advance of any covenant rite, and the idea that the circumcised can live without faith and not be Abraham's children, but that it is possible for Abraham's children to follow Abraham and, though they not be circumcised, they can be credited righteousness as he was (the overriding argument of Paul in Romans 4)
c) the law itself was a yoke that none of the Jewish ancestors were able to bear, and indeed much of Jesus own ministry was repudiating the legalism of the Pharisees and calling for repentance and clear hearts, not dissimilar to the train of thought of Amos.

So, I think there are certain things in the OT that are still binding today (attitudes to marriage, stealing, sexual ethics, idolatry, particular those things reiterated in the NT), there are things that are not binding but as a matter of individual conscience may still be beneficial to practice, but not mandate, today, as long as it does not become a new legalism and detract from what we have in Christ (eating pork, Saturday as the day of rest, celebrating a feast, etc), and things that are well and truly obsolete and should not be practiced (animal sacrifice, Holy of Holies in an actual temple).

I think 1 Corinthians 10 is instructive here as well.

 

[RedTent]

It's a tricky topic, but I side with most people here who say that much of the OT regulations no longer apply, or at least they are no longer binding as requirements for covenant membership on all people. There are several reasons for this. .

You have come to the heart of the different sides. I think that you can apply OT regulations in such a way that they can lead to Christ in a much more profound way than the churches stand they have now that they must not be applied.

There are entire epistles centered on that they are not binding as requirements for covenant membership. I don't think you can say there is anything in scripture, old or new testament to say they are a requirement. They are suggested as a path toward, not a final destination ever. When they were done for any other reason, scripture says no.

There are scriptures that can be interpreted as meaning some things are obsolete that God doesn't mean for us to read that was, even law. "We are under grace not law" and "you must obey". But when scripture is read to discount scripture, I don't think that is truth at all but a misinterpretation of what God is telling us. God is saying that although sin means death as the law points out sin, we are under grace and have forgiveness. When we read it to discount law for instruction, we are not following the scripture to obey. We can't do that.

 

[RedTent]

eternally-gratefull;1113166]Here we go again, Have to go back to practice something which looked forward. to something which already took place.

No scripture is "already took place". Scripture is explaining God to us.

do you honestly think God thinks your more holy than the person who speaks with him on a daily basis, and spends their very day focusing on him, yet does non of the OT feasts?? if you think so. your bearing toward phariseeism.

Your judging and accusing others of something that isn't there isn't of God. I never said I was holy. Do you really spend all your day focusing on God? That is what Paul says we should be able to do without any helps like rituals. Good for you.

Oh it does?? Poor abraham and Noah and all those other people that had no opportunity to have any relationship with God because they did not have these things. they must have missed out.

You say you have a great relationship with God without any helps. You seem to insist that everyone else do this also. Yet you say poor Abraham.

I don't think you are even pretending to think this through, you only are trying to ridicule. And accuse our of whole cloth. I have seen some of your other posts, this isn't like you.

 

[RedTent]

3. The Council of Jerusalem and Paul are quite explicit in repealing much of the OT regulation in favour of Gentile admission into the faith (Acts 15, Galatians 2). There are a lot of reasons given and argued in the NT for this, but the main ones seem to be:
a) the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on Gentiles in advance of any ritual cleansing or covenant rite, but only subsequent to following Christ as Lord This was understood, particularly from Joel, as the eschatological next step in refining covenant membership (Acts 2:14-41), in kind of the same way as the law being written on peoples hearts.
b) the faith of Abraham, the promise of God and the crediting of righteousness in advance of any covenant rite, and the idea that the circumcised can live without faith and not be Abraham's children, but that it is possible for Abraham's children to follow Abraham and, though they not be circumcised, they can be credited righteousness as he was (the overriding argument of Paul in Romans 4)
c) the law itself was a yoke that none of the Jewish ancestors were able to bear, and indeed much of Jesus own ministry was repudiating the legalism of the Pharisees and calling for repentance and clear hearts, not dissimilar to the train of thought of Amos.

Nick, if you go into history of that period you find that the gentiles couldn't go into the synagogue because of the rules they had for admission. When a gentile came to Christ, they needed to go to the synagogue to learn, they couldn't have them turned away. These were just the basic things that would make them acceptable for entrance.

God knows the spiritual things behind what He gives us to act out, but men usually don't even understand all of that. I don't think these men did.

God often has told us things to do, and we are to obey even when we don't know all the spiritual implications of these things. Today, Christians are so excited about the spiritual side and how much is opened to them they think they can get rid of all the physical side of worship. I think that we are too proud of our ability to be so perfect, we aren't. We need to accept more things that lead us to the spiritual. We know it is the spiritual side that counts, that is good. But we are cutting our nose off to spite our face to say that all physical paths, even if God suggested them, are bad.

 

[Nick01]

I can agree with a fair amount of what you said, Red Tent, with a couple of extra observations.

One is that, if the Law and Prophets are mostly about the coming of God's Anointed One and the final restoration of God's Kingdom, then it makes sense to say that Christ is the final destination of Scripture. The eschatological theme of fulfilment in Matthew, as I have pointed out, also seems suggestive of this point. So, at one level, those regulations might be helpful at the level of personal conscience to guide us towards what Christ has ultimately achieved for us already. On the other hand, I think to say that these in any way should be normative principles under which the church should operate is a dangerous call to make. The only real standard is Christ and him crucified. It is possible to know sin without knowing the Law, as Paul argues in Romans 2, just as it is possible to know the Law and yet not know sin. Law CAN be instructive, but that does not mean it is required for instruction.

Just to particularly zero in on this point:

I think that you can apply OT regulations in such a way that they can lead to Christ in a much more profound way than the churches stand they have now that they must not be applied.

There are certainly some points I think that should not be applied. Again, the sacrificial system is done away with. To have even a whiff that ongoing ritualistic metaphors of sacrifice in our churches is required for our sanctification, for example, is to potentially cast doubt on the finality of the work of Christ. Worshipping on a day that isn't Sunday, however, is a much more open issue, given the relationship of Jesus and the Sabbath and the practice of the early church. And, of course, the idea that OT regulations may lead us to Christ better than contemporary methods does not suggest that they actually do. I could just as easily argue that, given we are 2000 years away from the culture that understood those cultural regulations, it actually makes sense to use other modes of worship and other cultural metaphors to reach the lost in the 21st century, while still teaching Gospel. Can =/= does.

 

[RedTent]

I can agree with a fair amount of what you said, Red Tent, with a couple of extra observations.

One is that, if the Law and Prophets are mostly about the coming of God's Anointed One and the final restoration of God's Kingdom, then it makes sense to say that Christ is the final destination of Scripture. The eschatological theme of fulfilment in Matthew, as I have pointed out, also seems suggestive of this point. So, at one level, those regulations might be helpful at the level of personal conscience to guide us towards what Christ has ultimately achieved for us already. On the other hand, I think to say that these in any way should be normative principles under which the church should operate is a dangerous call to make. The only real standard is Christ and him crucified. It is possible to know sin without knowing the Law, as Paul argues in Romans 2, just as it is possible to know the Law and yet not know sin. Law CAN be instructive, but that does not mean it is required for instruction.

Just to particularly zero in on this point:


There are certainly some points I think that should not be applied. Again, the sacrificial system is done away with. To have even a whiff that ongoing ritualistic metaphors of sacrifice in our churches is required for our sanctification, for example, is to potentially cast doubt on the finality of the work of Christ. Worshipping on a day that isn't Sunday, however, is a much more open issue, given the relationship of Jesus and the Sabbath and the practice of the early church. And, of course, the idea that OT regulations may lead us to Christ better than contemporary methods does not suggest that they actually do. I could just as easily argue that, given we are 2000 years away from the culture that understood those cultural regulations, it actually makes sense to use other modes of worship and other cultural metaphors to reach the lost in the 21st century, while still teaching Gospel. Can =/= does.

We are finally whittling down and defining well our difference. We agree that all scripture points to Christ, and Christ is included in all.

I don't think we both see what God tells us of Christ, law, sin, and God in the same way. I see Christ as the center between us and God, for sin keeps us from eternal life with God, and it is only through Christ and what He did for us that can happen. I see the focus of the entire scripture as eternal life for us. Christ is the key to that and always has been.

I see the question of rituals or no rituals as a side issue to the main theme, but never the less an issue. If we threw the entire question out it would have no effect, except that with it in it could help us with our Christian walk. Personally deciding not to accept them is nothing, but to judge them the way the church does is a different matter. That is wrong.

But I think the final destination the bible speaks of is not Christ, but eternal life with God. Christ is the only way to that.

 

[loveme1]

John 1

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given by Moses, butgrace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Matthew 5

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Ye have heard that it hath been said

Where have we heard this?





The works of the law of Moses could not change our inner but was given until the promised seed came.

Galatians 3

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

What are we to have Faith in?

What gives life?

The Testimony of the Messiah.

One must be Baptized with the Holy Spirit which is received through Faith.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The children of God Keep His Commandments.

1 John 5

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6This is he that came by water and blood,even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Luke 24

44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48And ye are witnesses of these things. 49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high

The Messiah told us he fulfilled.

The question:

Did Christ cancel the OT, or teach us how to use it?

cancel no! fulfill yes.

how to use it?

The Messiah came through the Old Testament to bring us the New Testament.

Adhering to the Words of the Messiah is Faith.

Faith is in hearing and doing for we are commanded much "work" through the Testimony of the Messiah Yahshua.




Matthew 22

34But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. 35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets

GOD is a Spirit and GOD is Love then it is no wonder that He desires we worship Him in Spirit and Truth having the Law of Love put within us.


When the "you shall not" becomes loving Heavenly Father.

By the Grace of GOD are we offered Salvation.

By His mercy can we be forgiven and cleansed and this is through Faith in the Testimony of the Messiah.

Let us look to the Light of the World and where there is Light there be a shadow.

to see my shadow i have my back toward the Light.... so i say Look at the Light of the World and hear and do.

 

[Nick01]

We are finally whittling down and defining well our difference. We agree that all scripture points to Christ, and Christ is included in all.

I don't think we both see what God tells us of Christ, law, sin, and God in the same way. I see Christ as the center between us and God, for sin keeps us from eternal life with God, and it is only through Christ and what He did for us that can happen. I see the focus of the entire scripture as eternal life for us. Christ is the key to that and always has been.

...

But I think the final destination the bible speaks of is not Christ, but eternal life with God. Christ is the only way to that.

This is a tangent, in relation to the actual topic, but it's a worthwhile theological, and particularly christological point to make.

My initial point still stands. Scripture, according to Jesus, is about Him. Of course, he does stand between us and God as our mediator, it is only through Christ that we can be saved, and so on. What great truths, that us dummies can be saved! But it's couched in the greater revelation of the Word of God, Immanuel, the second Adam, the true Israel, God in the flesh. Our salvation is about him!

16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead,so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

So to steer back to the real topic, I think there is a sense in which some rituals can be less helpful because they actually steer us away from the revelation of Christ back towards the veiled Messiah that the OT only whispers of (Hebrews 1:1-3). Christ is not a secret. He wandered around as a human, people talked to him, he ate amongst the poor, and died a criminal. Let's not be too quick to overturn that by going back to OT structures that, by their nature, only gave a tiny, tiny taste of what was to come. (1 Peter 1:12)

With that in mind, what are the things you have in mind that the church is explicitly "judging"?

 

[RedTent]

This is a tangent, in relation to the actual topic, but it's a worthwhile theological, and particularly christological point to make.

My initial point still stands. Scripture, according to Jesus, is about Him. Of course, he does stand between us and God as our mediator, it is only through Christ that we can be saved, and so on. What great truths, that us dummies can be saved! But it's couched in the greater revelation of the Word of God, Immanuel, the second Adam, the true Israel, God in the flesh. Our salvation is about him!



So to steer back to the real topic, I think there is a sense in which some rituals can be less helpful because they actually steer us away from the revelation of Christ back towards the veiled Messiah that the OT only whispers of (Hebrews 1:1-3). Christ is not a secret. He wandered around as a human, people talked to him, he ate amongst the poor, and died a criminal. Let's not be too quick to overturn that by going back to OT structures that, by their nature, only gave a tiny, tiny taste of what was to come. (1 Peter 1:12)

With that in mind, what are the things you have in mind that the church is explicitly "judging"?

I have in mind that the church is judging all rituals themselves as wrong. They blame rituals when the bible is talking about legalism, not rituals. They say it is the ritual's fault when the bible points out they are not required for salvation. If the bible points to a person using rituals in the wrong way, the church says it is the rituals that cause that.

The churches wonderful teaching is that the Holy Spirit within us points us to the spiritual meaning in life. People who live without God wrongly see only the physical side of living. The church emphasizes all scripture says about making our spirit alive and helping our spirit grow.

Scripture also talks about the human side of our life before we go on to eternal life, but as we live it on this earth. The church mentions this a bit, but it is not the emphasis of the church's teaching. We are living in our physical bodies, and as saved Christians, that is where our needs are. Saved Christians have the HS, they worship in spirit and truth. We need help with the next step involving our humanness, and the church sometimes even denies the human side of us.

The thinking of the church I think is so wrong is based on reasoning that goes like this: If this is true then that is not true". So they say "If the spiritual is key to life then the physical isn't important". They do many things like this. Truth has a lot of "and" in it, even if one truth has more importance than another. You will find that when posters lead us in what is not truth there is usually the word "only" in their post. "It is the only way". The words "in addition" are needed for truth.

So the training of the physical side of us, training rituals could give, is thrown out. We have nothing given to us for our physical training to the spiritual because the spiritual is more important, and the church can't seem to think with "in addition".

 

[just-me]

There are certainly some points I think that should not be applied. Again, the sacrificial system is done away with. To have even a whiff that ongoing ritualistic metaphors of sacrifice in our churches is required for our sanctification, for example, is to potentially cast doubt on the finality of the work of Christ. Worshipping on a day that isn't Sunday, however, is a much more open issue, given the relationship of Jesus and the Sabbath and the practice of the early church. And, of course, the idea that OT regulations may lead us to Christ better than contemporary methods does not suggest that they actually do. I could just as easily argue that, given we are 2000 years away from the culture that understood those cultural regulations, it actually makes sense to use other modes of worship and other cultural metaphors to reach the lost in the 21st century, while still teaching Gospel. Can =/= does.

Very good point that you make for the Bible says John 4:23-24 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1 Samuel 16:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

There is major reality however that most seem to not be aware of. That is that up until the death of Christ, the Old Testament as we call it, was still in effect. That makes all of the teachings of Christ Jesus in the time of the law and the prophets, henceforth, the Word of God, out of the mouth of our Savior before His death were of the Testament before the New Testament. God has always wanted us to worship Him with our hearts sincerely. Anything else would be rejected no matter how good the rituals were seen by man. With that said, I believe that Jesus connects the Old with the New with the same gravity as from the beginning of time.

Hebrews 9:16-17 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[GreenNnice]

Red Tent, I have been studying the Bible for 33 years, since I was saved. I usually read 3 chapters a day in the Old Testament and 1 in the New Testament to get through the Bible every year. Plus, I read the Psalms daily.

So in a day, I read 20% of my readings in the New Testament and 80% in the Old Testament. I have taken Old Testament survey courses, and one book study on Deuteronomy. I also just finished a year of Hebrew, including reading several books like Jonah in Hebrew.

I probably know a lot more about the Old Testament than most people. But I still believe Christ paid it all, fulfilled the law and the prophets and that the Old and New Testament are about Jesus - not about laws, or feasts or the Sabbath.

I worship in a Baptist Church. I went to a Messianic Church for a while, even went to Pesach once, and enjoyed it. BUT I thought it was for Jewish Christians at that time, didn't realize it was Gentiles pretending to be Jews.

Your writings show you are caught in legalism and lies. You never post Bible verses, and rarely back up anything you say with sources as Zone says.

If you are happy with the way you worship, then do it. Just stop trying to convince the rest of the forum it is right or good.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:17-20

Please read verse 20 again!

Anyone who seeks to obey the law, rather than trusting wholly in the finished work of Christ on the cross is subject to verse 20:

"For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Does all your following the Old Testament exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees?? Because Jesus tells us that you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven, unless it does if you continue to follow the law.

And please stop saying no one here knows the Old Testament. I would guess there are many here that know it much better than you!

We are to trust in both. By Christ coming, He did not abolish the law, just as Scripture states, He fulfilled the laws of Moses, He shows us through Himself that those laws are REAL but we don't need them anymore because He is HERE, we are to follow Him and the laws of Moses are just a given of understanding that by Christ's finished work, as you say, anj, we
ARE
FULLY
UNDERSTANDING
WHAT IT MEANS TO
FOLLOW
THE LAWS of the 10 commandments, and, all laws for that mattter. We know longer NEED sacrifice, we have Christ, He IS our sacrifice.

And, don't you worry, milady, when YOU obey, YOU WILL SACRIFICE