Did Christ cancel the OT, or teach us how to use it?

[eternally-gratefull]

This is putting the side about Christ's place so very well! If, you say, we use any God suggestions like rituals or ceremony as worship helps, it would only lead away from God. Saying the Lord's Prayer is a ritual, it can be done legalistically. The habit of saying it could lead to having it no more than habit. Does that make using the Lord's Prayer in our prayer life wrong? our side says you are tossing out what could be used for good, as the Father said, but not that you may not come to eternal life your way. And you say you are so smart and complete you don't need any ancient Hebrew understanding, you toss that out, too. Well, I'll bet God says you are complete and God accepts you just as you are, but God gave you a way to grow. You are judging, the other side isn't.

lol. Do you read what anyone says?

We STUDY the OT. And Hebrew. How else can we learn about God?

This is not the same as doing vein repetitious prayer, and religious repetative feasts and ceremonies of things which have already been fulfilled.

How much did they help Israel? they had them all and STILL rejected Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No way!! The OT ties in with the NT I mean for example with prophecy no Biblical prophecy would be complete without the book of revelation AND the book of Daniel. Genesis is for example the Alphaand Revelation is the Omega. God also said that his Word would never pass away

No one is saying the OT should not be studied. They are saying we should still do the feasts and ceremonies given to show what Christ did.. And we just ask why? why not focus on things today, and not stuff already fulfilled??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Disagree.

The sacrifice has been made that is sufficient for all, but atonement has been made only for those who are currently in the kingdom of GOD. Atonement cannot be made for any outside of the kingdom. That is impossible. Look to the OT. There was no such thing as atonement for anyone who was not part of Israel. Outsiders could offer sacrifices in reverance, but it was pointless for them to offer sin offerings for violations of laws they were not under.

At this point in time there are people who exist but are not in the kingdom, and those who do not yet exist, who one day will receive the atonement when they are baptized into Christ. Until that time, they are not in the congregation of GOD, and cannot benefit from the atonement.

1. Atonement was made for all.
2. How else can we be "chosen before the foundation of the world"
3. God works outside of time, Christs death covered those of the OT even though he had not died yet, You telling me his death does not cover ours today?

you have major problems.

finally.

No covering anyone outside of Isreal? So ninevah was not saved? (gentile) how about king davids grandmother (gentile) and the many other gentiles saved and given eternal life in the time of the old covenant?

wow!!

this is the problem with taking the law to seriously and getting into stuff we have no business getting into. We distort everything God set before us, and never come to a clear understanding of what was being said.

 

[zone]

lol. Do you read what anyone says?

We STUDY the OT. And Hebrew. How else can we learn about God?

This is not the same as doing vein repetitious prayer, and religious repetative feasts and ceremonies of things which have already been fulfilled.

How much did they help Israel? they had them all and STILL rejected Christ.

all those feasts were given to and for ISRAEL the nation ONLY.

they're OVER...in terms of having seen their conclusion or finishing or teleios in the Person of Jesus Christ.

this doesn't mean He isn't saving today through the Gospel based on His Work, or making intercession.
but the Gospel preached brings sinners into the House of God cleansed of all unrighteousness in the heavenly tabernacle made without hands.

Daniel 9 is fulfilled.
so is 10, 11 & 12.



the Israelite nation experienced it's second period - it's latter days, last days - which ended in 70AD.

over.

No Temple in Jerusalem....no pilgrimages there 3 times a year.
no pilgrimages there 3 times a year, no TRUE observance of the feasts.

it's GOOD to study them and GOOD to honor them as part of Our Redemptive History (the Jew first then the Gentile)...but the Person of Jesus is everything. anything diminishing from Him and His Works is NOT good.

Colossians 1
The Preeminence of Christ
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For byf him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

21And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creationg under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

AMEN.




but - if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

3. God works outside of time, ?

But we don't operate outside of time. Neither does GOD in regards to his appointed times and his dealings with us. The precedent has been set by Christ's fulfillment of the first 4 appointed times at their precise times. I don't see where anyone has warrant to deviate from this precedent, apart from stumbling blocks in their understanding.

No covering anyone outside of Isreal? So ninevah was not saved? (gentile) how about king davids grandmother (gentile) and the many other gentiles saved and given eternal life in the time of the old covenant?

Ninevah was spared from physical destruction by repenting of evil; they didn't offer sin offerings, and there is no indication that they inherited eternal life. That is an assumption on your part.

Ruth became a member of the Israel. She forsook her country and joined the covenant. Any 'gentile' who was saved who did not join the kingdom of Israel was saved through their faith.

you have major problems.

Can you seriously look at my 500+ posts and honestly state that I have a serious problem just because of this disagreement? Perhaps there is something deficient in your understanding...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

all those feasts were given to and for ISRAEL the nation ONLY.

Israel became the kingdom of GOD.

 

[zone]

Israel became the kingdom of GOD.

yes i know the elect remnant did.
they became Christians.
the feasts and whole system was established to signify the One who would come and fulfill all righteousness.

do we do Sinai Sabbath?


k.......ttyl

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/B][/COLOR]But we don't operate outside of time. Neither does GOD in regards to his appointed times and his dealings with us. The precedent has been set by Christ's fulfillment of the first 4 appointed times at their precise times. I don't see where anyone has warrant to deviate from this precedent, apart from stumbling blocks in their understanding.

Again. We were chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world. Unless this is God chosing us based on his son. This means nothing.

All feasts (the plan of salvation) is COMPLETE. why do you want to go back and say it is not yet complete?

Ninevah was spared from physical destruction by repenting of evil; they didn't offer sin offerings, and there is no indication that they inherited eternal life. That is an assumption on your part.

1. Sin offering never removed sin (see Hebrews) thus they would never have had to offer them
2. Salvation has ALWAYS been of grace through faith in the work of God. They had faith he would do what he promised. This is what saved them./ NOT SIN OFFERINGS.
3. Sin offerings were given to Israel AS A SYMBOL. to show them and the world what the future savior would do.
4. Dual covenant is error. NO ONE WAS SAVED OR HAD ANY FORGIVENESS FROM THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS

Ruth became a member of the Israel. She forsook her country and joined the covenant. Any 'gentile' who was saved who did not join the kingdom of Israel was saved through their faith.

Many gentiles were saved, Many nations followed God. They did not have to be Israel to be saved, this was the mistake Isreal made, they did not get it. And your making the same mistake they made.

According to you, I guess NO ONE was saved before the law was given?

[/B][/COLOR]Can you seriously look at my 500+ posts and honestly state that I have a serious problem just because of this disagreement? Perhaps there is something deficient in your understanding...

I do not know what happened. You seem to know the gospel. but now you appear to be saying there is a dual covenant for salvation. Which is a dangerous thing which may have horrible future ramifications.

Do you believe when the temple is rebuilt that these sin offerings will be re-instituted by God to remove sin (eternally?)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Israel became the kingdom of GOD.

I disagree, The kingdom of God preceded out from Israel (Christ) Israel did not become the kingdom. They became dispersed throughout the world, and are still blind to the truth

Only a small remnant were saved. And are being saved today

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

they're OVER...in terms of having seen their conclusion or finishing or teleios in the Person of Jesus Christ.

The commandment to keep YHWH's appointed times is over. But the times themselves haven't ceased to exist any more than the 10 commandments have ceased to exist.

According to your logic, the cross and resurrection should have ended everything. But Pentecost was fulfilled 50+ days later.

 

[zone]

I disagree, The kingdom of God preceded out from Israel (Christ) Israel did not become the kingdom.

oops EG:

Galatians 6
14But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whichb the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

all who walk by which rule?
to not boast in anything other than the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, and who are that new creation.
all who do so are.......the Israel of God

Romans 9
6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”b 8In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring

Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 4:28
Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac (allegorically - born miraculously by Divine intervention, according to a promise), are children of promise.

 

[zone]

The commandment to keep YHWH's appointed times is over. But the times themselves haven't ceased to exist any more than the 10 commandments have ceased to exist.

According to your logic, the cross and resurrection should have ended everything. But Pentecost was fulfilled 50+ days later.

no, i never said ended as in erased from history and time and record and importance.
i meant reached their full maturity, and completion in the actual real Work (according the types foreshadowed by each) in and by JESUS THE PERSON.

i said imo the later harvest is ongoing...until the end.

but Jesus clearly said...`you say - four more months until the harvest, but i tell you ....

i dont wanna derail your thread though.
will post later on the Day of Atonement (as i see it).

im open to changing my mind on it.
as long as there`s no 1,000 years mystery period after the Second Advent and Judgement.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

All feasts (the plan of salvation) is COMPLETE. why do you want to go back and say it is not yet complete?

The temple isn't complete. Salvation isn't complete. The appointed times have not been completed. They are called appointed times for a reason.

Not one of you can give me a specific, compelling explanation for the fulfillment of the final 3 appointed times, that is as specific and compelling as the fulfillment of the first 4 times. The best you can do is appeal to generalizations that everything is finished. Please demonstrate the fulfillment of the final 3 appointed times in as compelling a way as GOD did in the first 4 fulfillments. You can't because none exists...

 

[zone]

The temple isn't complete. Salvation isn't complete. The appointed times have not been completed. They are called appointed times for a reason.

Not one of you can give me a specific, compelling explanation for the fulfillment of the final 3 appointed times, that is as specific and compelling as the fulfillment of the first 4 times. The best you can do is appeal to generalizations that everything is finished. Please demonstrate the fulfillment of the final 3 appointed times in as compelling a way as GOD did in the first 4 fulfillments. You can't because none exists...

okay.
ill do it.
but later tonight at best or tomorrow.... or as soon as i can.
ill try to be concise.
(like thats gonna happen)

meantime...if you could consider Daniel 12 (fulfilled) - it might help me see if i am totally off.
k. later

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

no, i never said ended as in erased from history and time and record and importance.
i meant reached their full maturity, and completion in the actual real Work (according the types foreshadowed by each) in and by JESUS THE PERSON.

i said imo the later harvest is ongoing...until the end.

but Jesus clearly said...`you say - four more months until the harvest, but i tell you ....

i dont wanna derail your thread though.
will post later on the Day of Atonement (as i see it).

im open to changing my mind on it.
as long as there`s no 1,000 years mystery period after the Second Advent and Judgement.

Please demonstrate (in my thread about this, or your own if you choose) how they have reached maturity and completion. Please be as specific as GOD was in the first 4 fulfillments.

What is so problematic about a 1000-year reign?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The temple isn't complete. Salvation isn't complete. The appointed times have not been completed. They are called appointed times for a reason.

WHAT??????????

So I guess we can't be saved. And there is no hope for us now. Christ's death was insufficient..

I do not see any other way to interpret what you just said.

The temple is obsolite. Do you not understand what it meant when the veil was tore in two? no more does man have to enter the inner sanctum (of course, that never took away sin anyway, it was just a symbol)

Not one of you can give me a specific, compelling explanation for the fulfillment of the final 3 appointed times, that is as specific and compelling as the fulfillment of the first 4 times. The best you can do is appeal to generalizations that everything is finished. Please demonstrate the fulfillment of the final 3 appointed times in as compelling a way as GOD did in the first 4 fulfillments. You can't because none exists...

lol. You have yet to give a compelling explanation for the fulfillment. In fact, If your correct. No one is saved, we are still waiting for the sacrifice.

 

[zone]

Please demonstrate (in my thread about this, or your own if you choose) how they have reached maturity and completion. Please be as specific as GOD was in the first 4 fulfillments.

ill do my best.
i could be totally wrong (but i dont think so)

What is so problematic about a 1000-year reign?

well....some temporary mystery reign after the Second Advent isnt in scripture.
the biblicaléhebraism a thousand (years) is. in ONE place. Rev 20.

its a symbolic number and means The Messianic Age (salvation) portion of the eternal Kingdom which is now, as the lost are translated into the Kingdom (eternal life now).

there`s just this age....and the age to come (Olam Haba) - the Pharisees rejected the Messianic AGE, and are still waiting.
we now only have the Age to Come - eternity.

 

[zone]

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mark 10
28Peter began to say to him, “See, we have left everything and followed you.” 29Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 30who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time (age), houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life

 

[Bookends]

Just curious about what you think about these dead OT laws.

Leviticus 19:11-18 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Deuteronomy 6:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

Deuteronomy 18:15-19 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Moral Laws are not abrogated, neither did they start at the beginning of the nation of Israel. We where created with moral compass, but on our own and in our strength we are incapable in following it perfectly. God chose the nation of Israel to 1) give us knowledge and insight of His Character, 2) to demonstrate to us our sinful and fallen nature, and 3) to use them to bring forth the True and only messiah so that we'd have no doubt of the Who, What, When and Hows of God's redemptive plan through Jesus Christ would come about. Without out that, Christ could come from anywhere and anyone crazy enough could claim to be the messiah. We'd have no clue who the real messiah was/is. Jesus Christ is the only one who could have emerged out of the OT doorway through the patriarchs, law giver and prophets.

 

[Bookends]

Why do people think only the sacrificial system was done away? What about all the feasds? and the ceremonies. that ONLY had significance to jews??

How did Adam and Seth and his families relate to God? How about all people up to noah? then him and his family? then all the people to abraham Issac and Jacob? and all the people up to Moses?

They did not have these things, where they LESS spiritual> Did they have less of a relationship with God??

Genesis 5:22-24 (AMP)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Enoch walked [in habitual fellowship] with God after the birth of Methuselah 300 years and had other sons and daughters.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]So all the days of Enoch were 365 years.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And Enoch walked [in habitual fellowship] with God; and he was not, for God took him [home with Him].

Expanded version:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]After Methuselah was born, Enoch walked with God 300 years more and had other sons and daughters. [SUP]23 [/SUP]So Enoch lived a total of 365 years. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Enoch walked with God [[SUP]C [/SUP]he had a close relationship with God; Heb. 11:5–6]; one day Enoch could not be found, because God took him [[SUP]C [/SUP]like Elijah (2 Kin. 2:11), he did not die].

Amen EG...