What Is The Christian Relationship to The Old Testament Covenant?

[Shiloah]

Try looking up ALL the occurances of the word 'better' in the Book of Hebrews and then you'll begin to understand the differences are far GREATER and BETTER than what you listed.

Crossnote, whatever you think you're claiming flies in the face of everything else presented here.

 

[crossnote]

Crossnote, whatever you think you're claiming flies in the face of everything else presented here.

I only presented scripture (Heb 1:1-2) was that a problem? You jumped on that.

 

[zone]

[/COLOR]Our Fathers language IS family and nature; it IS learned in Hebrew, using the English Bible or whatever language one understands as a textbook guide, to hear, what saith The Father about the SON. Not some man, Not any man. (this means women too)[/FONT][/SIZE]

except arnold or dennis murray, right?

 

[Grandpa]

The law given to Moses was for those who rejected grace? Oh my. That has got to be the most bizarre concept I've seen posted here yet. :-O

You probably don't see much of the new testament.

Galatians 3:19 [SUP] [/SUP]Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

1 Timothy 1:9-10
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, [SUP]10 [/SUP]For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


Galatians 3:10-14
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

[WeStand]

except arnold or dennis murray, right?

Because of your mental issues, it is obvious too see that would not even be able to understand what the Bible says; if you can't even understand the word no means. lol

Hope they get your meds properly regulated one day Cathy

 

[Grandpa]

If you could take all you say in the entire post, keep it all in your heart and mind, but after you do all you say, after Christ comes into your heart, if you could then agree to work for Him and use what is said as a good way to work for Him, we would be in sync. And never work because there is no grace, never work because you can create your own grace, but work to walk in the narrow road Christ lays out for you, we would agree. Then you would never scold your Father or Moses because He told you how to walk.

Scold God and Moses??? I wouldn't do that...

I point out that the people who work at the law have rejected Grace. If I'm "scolding" anyone it is the children of the old testament for rejecting Grace.

 

[zone]

Because of your mental issues, it is obvious too see that would not even be able to understand what the Bible says; if you can't even understand the word no means. lol

Hope they get your meds properly regulated one day Cathy

do you study daily by watching Shepherd's Chapel on tv?
do you read Hebrew?
your words are his words. virtually verbatim.
all cults works that way.

i'm not on meds, son.
and i don't have mental issues.
i was delivered from all that.

you gonna trample my testimony again?

give it a go.

then we'll take a look at your work....er...Arnold Murray's work.
both perversions.
it's easy.

ready?

 

[WeStand]

do you study daily by watching Shepherd's Chapel on tv?
do you read Hebrew?
your words are his words. virtually verbatim.
all cults works that way.

i'm not on meds, son.
and i don't have mental issues.
i was delivered from all that.

you gonna trample my testimony again?

give it a go.

then we'll take a look at your work....er...Arnold Murray's work.
both perversions.
it's easy.

ready?

Someday you will realize, that Satanizing in its simplistic form; IS ill-communition.

Guess it must be just some hormonal issues, my mom had those too, around your age.

So what is Sheppards Chapel helped me in my growth as a practising Christian. Am I supposed to be embarrassed by that? or What. Do I jump all over you for where you seem to have not grown?

Go ahead, slice him up if that's your thing; you do it to almost everyone in the world anyways lol

We shall all answer; not to worry

 

[RedTent]

Scold God and Moses??? I wouldn't do that...

I point out that the people who work at the law have rejected Grace. If I'm "scolding" anyone it is the children of the old testament for rejecting Grace.

If what you say against Moses giving God's law is not scolding, but that you are only scolding children "of the old testament" for doing law, saying that amounts to rejecting grace, it comes down to the same thing. What of the children who listen to law, and also listen to God saying that listening to law is only for those who have accepted grace. For those who would never never listen to law in order to make themselves holy, but listen to law as humans who belong to God.

I cannot see how listening to the law of God is denying grace. The law isn't for those who deny grace. Without grace the law amounts to nothing. How could anyone make themselves holy through the law? Only God can cleanse us through Christ. And why should our being cleaned of our sin mean we cannot listen to law? I don't see how that could be.

We listen to law to see our sin. We take that sin to Christ and repent. Christ cleanses us. How does not listening to law enter into that? Because the HS leads us to this? Of course, that is why we listen to law.

 

[crossnote]

Romans 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Why add the law to that which is complete in Christ.

 

[Grandpa]

If what you say against Moses giving God's law is not scolding, but that you are only scolding children "of the old testament" for doing law, saying that amounts to rejecting grace, it comes down to the same thing. What of the children who listen to law, and also listen to God saying that listening to law is only for those who have accepted grace. For those who would never never listen to law in order to make themselves holy, but listen to law as humans who belong to God.

I cannot see how listening to the law of God is denying grace. The law isn't for those who deny grace. Without grace the law amounts to nothing. How could anyone make themselves holy through the law? Only God can cleanse us through Christ. And why should our being cleaned of our sin mean we cannot listen to law? I don't see how that could be.

We listen to law to see our sin. We take that sin to Christ and repent. Christ cleanses us. How does not listening to law enter into that? Because the HS leads us to this? Of course, that is why we listen to law.

Are you trying to be perfect in your sight?

I find it much more important to be perfect in His Sight. And I don't know how to do that so I MUST trust in Him completely that He Will Accomplish what He Says He Will Accomplish.

I don't trust that I am perfect before Him by my looking to the law.

Ephesians 3:20-21
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


Exceeding Abundantly above all that we ask or think. Meaning we don't understand what He does in us when we ask what we ask. But we have Faith that He will perform it, to the Highest.

Which kind of expounds on what crossnote posted...

 

[RedTent]

Are you trying to be perfect in your sight?

I find it much more important to be perfect in His Sight. And I don't know how to do that so I MUST trust in Him completely that He Will Accomplish what He Says He Will Accomplish.

I don't trust that I am perfect before Him by my looking to the law.

Ephesians 3:20-21
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


Exceeding Abundantly above all that we ask or think. Meaning we don't understand what He does in us when we ask what we ask. But we have Faith that He will perform it, to the Highest.

Which kind of expounds on what crossnote posted...

OK, I give in. You say to be perfect in God's sight is to never look at the law. Can't trust the law to follow. We don't understand what God does in us, so just have faith, and faith does not include any of our doing. If we do nothing God will do it for us, we must not involve ourself, I believe you said we are only flesh. I got it. Though how anyone is going to follow Christ by doing nothing to follow Him is beyond me! Or are we suppose to be following Him in our mind without letting our flesh or body be involved in any way? What if our HS says for us to get in our car and drive to church? Are we allowed to do that? It is obeying law.

 

[john832]

Hello, folks!

I just want to start a discussion about the Christian relationship to the Old Testament covenant. Although we are living under the New Testament covenant, does God still require us to be obedient to the Old Testament laws (i.e., ethical, ritual, and civil)? If God does require us to be obedient to the laws, what sort of implication does this leave the reader of the Bible with?



On a side note, I recently wrote a paper for school regarding this very same topic. I just thought it would be interesting to read responses from others and possibly look at various scriptures which pertain this topic from a fresh perspective.

If you can, quote as many Bible verses as possible to support your position on this topic. I hope we can all have a great discussion!

God Bless you all!

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I saw the stars this morning and walked around the driveway to get in my car. Seems that heaven and earth have not passed away yet.

 

[john832]

Romans 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Why add the law to that which is complete in Christ.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[Grandpa]

OK, I give in. You say to be perfect in God's sight is to never look at the law. Can't trust the law to follow. We don't understand what God does in us, so just have faith, and faith does not include any of our doing. If we do nothing God will do it for us, we must not involve ourself, I believe you said we are only flesh. I got it. Though how anyone is going to follow Christ by doing nothing to follow Him is beyond me! Or are we suppose to be following Him in our mind without letting our flesh or body be involved in any way? What if our HS says for us to get in our car and drive to church? Are we allowed to do that? It is obeying law.

I tried to respond to this in a few different ways but I found myself being condescending. Maybe someone else can explain who is more humble than I am...

 

[Grandpa]

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I saw the stars this morning and walked around the driveway to get in my car. Seems that heaven and earth have not passed away yet.

I guess you didn't get to see our Lord and Saviour Crucified and killed and resurrected the third day. Then you would have seen all being fulfilled.

 

[Grandpa]

Originally Posted by crossnote

Romans 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Why add the law to that which is complete in Christ.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

So how do you reconcile those scriptures together? They do not contradict each other...

Romans 11:5-10
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.[SUP]6 [/SUP]And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
[SUP]8 [/SUP](According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.

 

[just-me]

All of the teachings of Jesus were of the Old Testament before His death.

 

[crossnote]

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Maybe this will help round out your quotes...

Php_1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
1Th_3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

 

[Grandpa]

All of the teachings of Jesus were of the Old Testament before His death.

The Lord Jesus Christ established a New Way. Hence New Testament.

Who in the Old Testament ever taught this?;

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.