God's sovereignty vs human free will

[BradC]

Genesis 6:5
The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Man can only choose evil continuously, human will is corrupted

14 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds,
there is none who does good.


[SUP]2 [/SUP]The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand,[SUP][a][/SUP]
who seek after God.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.


Human faith is not the same as the Gift of Faith given to man by God, what is awesome about that is God is a rewarder of the faith that He gives man.

human faith leads to things like - if you just had enough faith you would be healed - I have faith to heal someone, but they didn't get healed, i guess I didn't have enough faith(or could it be that God never told you to heal anyone)

It's all of grace - and there is no such thing as free will in the Bible, human will but I don't think the term "free" will should be used - kind of misleading

Free volition is activity of the human will concerning man whether he is in unbelief or has been set free through Christ. Man is free to choose all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life. He is free to have an education, to get married, raise a family, have possessions, live where he wants and then goes to the grave as a dead man in his sin. He has that kind of freedom in his human volition but once he dies then he has to face a judgment according to his works. If a man was in a coma he has no free volition to exercise himself in the knowledge he has or in any judgment to be made, just like a dead man in the grave. We should be thankful that all men have a free volition to be able to make choices and let's give to them the light of the knowledge of God concerning his Son so that they can have the faith they need to believe upon the Son to have life and be reconciled to God.

 

[phil36]

Hi Bradc,

Maybe an easier way for you would be:

Is mans will free? that is free from who he is? think about that carefully. Then ask yourself why is it that ot one does good, no one does good.. because if mans will was indeed 'free', I am sure he could morally do good?

When We say there is no free will, it does not mean that man has not got a will, quite the contrary man has a will, yet it is always tied to his nature...which certainly is not 'free', every decision will be a based from a sinful nature, man cannot do anything from the will contrary to his fallen condition.. (I'm referring to mans condition before being saved). And bare in mind what you have already said above.. and our condition..we were Dead in our trespass's

So is your will free? and the obvious question is if you say yes is, Free from what ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi Bradc,

Maybe an easier way for you would be:

Is mans will free? that is free from who he is? think about that carefully. Then ask yourself why is it that ot one does good, no one does good.. because if mans will was indeed 'free', I am sure he could morally do good?

When We say there is no free will, it does not mean that man has not got a will, quite the contrary man has a will, yet it is always tied to his nature...which certainly is not 'free', every decision will be a based from a sinful nature, man cannot do anything from the will contrary to his fallen condition.. (I'm referring to mans condition before being saved). And bare in mind what you have already said above.. and our condition..we were Dead in our trespass's

So is your will free? and the obvious question is if you say yes is, Free from what ?

Not sure that is a good question.

Free to do what? should be the question..

 

[phil36]

Not sure that is a good question.

Free to do what? should be the question..

Its a perfectly sound question:

What is the 'will' FREE from? is your will free from who you naturally are?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Its a perfectly sound question:

What is the 'will' FREE from? is your will free from who you naturally are?

no, I must disagree.. only if you do not have free will would it be a valid question.

free will means you have the freedom to do whatever you want.. otherwise, it would not be FREE will

so again, the more valid question would be, free will to do what?

 

[BradC]

Hi Bradc,

Maybe an easier way for you would be:

Is mans will free? that is free from who he is? think about that carefully. Then ask yourself why is it that ot one does good, no one does good.. because if mans will was indeed 'free', I am sure he could morally do good?

When We say there is no free will, it does not mean that man has not got a will, quite the contrary man has a will, yet it is always tied to his nature...which certainly is not 'free', every decision will be a based from a sinful nature, man cannot do anything from the will contrary to his fallen condition.. (I'm referring to mans condition before being saved). And bare in mind what you have already said above.. and our condition..we were Dead in our trespass's

So is your will free? and the obvious question is if you say yes is, Free from what ?

When a man's body is dead and in the grave, his soul has no capacity for free volition. It's over and he waits for judgment. The rich man in hell in Luke 16 illustrates the loss of free volition that he had to exercise while on earth. There was nothing he could do to comfort himself or warn his family of this place of torment. Even when the light of God's conviction comes to the human heart that is living in darkness, the volition is free to receive that conviction or reject it. That is free volition and he loves the world and the things of the flesh then he does the conviction of grace that comes to give him life. But others respond to that conviction and reproof and receive the grace of God by humbling themselves. To humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God takes an act of the will to freely do it or freely abstain from it. If we humble ourselves God gives us grace, but if not then we are resisted by God because we are proud. We have free volition in the car we buy, in the home we live in, in the kind of toothpaste we purchase, in the mate we choose, in the music we listen to. All of this is an act of our free volition to make those choices in the details of life. Let's not forfeit that great gift of free volition that we have been given by God and let us not spiritualize it away because of how we believe.

 

[jimmydiggs]

no, I must disagree.. only if you do not have free will would it be a valid question.

free will means you have the freedom to do whatever you want.. otherwise, it would not be FREE will

so again, the more valid question would be, free will to do what?

Is there anything that governs or influences a persons decision?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is there anything that governs or influences a persons decision?

I think so. many things can influence a persons decision.. don't you think?

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

Fallen man has ''free will''...the freedom to choose according to his fallen nature but is blind apart from the grace of God to see the things of God.

Fallen man has free will within the lot where he has fallen.
God hardened Pharaoh's heart,
God hardened the hearts of the unfaithful of that last generation of Old Covenant Israel,
...lest they have eyes to see, ears to hear, and a mind to perceive the things of God....
And God would have had to save them, but God can keep the wicked unto their day of judgement.
God knows the heart of man; IE David, and can keep a man unto his day of salvation.

sometimes God's Sovereignty over rides man's free will;
and sometimes man's free will over rides God's Sovereignty. IE
as Moses going outside the camp, and reasoning with God not to destroy Israel.

God's Word seems to infer,
that He purposed all things from before the foundation of the world.
I believe God's Sovereignty overrides all things,
and that's more than we can know sometimes in our feeble minds!

 

[konroh]

It's fascinating that in the example of Pharaoh, Scripture gives equal balance, 10 times it says Pharaoh hardened his own heart, and 10 times it says God hardened PHaraoh's heart. God is obviously sovereign, and we obviously have a choice. Is our nature sinful? Yes, but we are also created in God's image and whether one believes in God or not one is capable of good. Not absolute good, not good in comparison to God (our righteousnesses are as filthy rags), not even necessarily good that isn't tainted in some way by sin, but good nonetheless. In that sense we are free to do both good and evil, Adam and Eve ate and had the knowledge of both good and evil and passed that down to us.
In terms of initial salvation, God predestined many according to His foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:2) We weren't predestined based on His foreknowledge of our faith(contra Arminianism) nor were we predestined independent of His foreknowledge (contra Calvinism). We were predestined according to His foreknowledge. God chose those who freely chose Him. Could we choose God without being regenerated? No. Could God save those who don't believe? No. Is God sovereign? Yes. Is man responsible? Yes.

 

[Grace-Like-Rain]

Could God save those who don't believe? No.

You're saying that God CAN'T save someone who doesn't believe? He does it all the time. He just makes them believe and then saves them.

 

[MidniteWelder]

You're saying that God CAN'T save someone who doesn't believe? He does it all the time. He just makes them believe and then saves them.

God may not make ya, but he can make ya wanna.

 

[homwardbound]

Its a perfectly sound question:

What is the 'will' FREE from? is your will free from who you naturally are?

What I believe is what I will to be and do. Thank you, and God through Son Christ has set ne free in God to be who I am as God hath shown me, I am free to choose. and I have chosen, thanks

 

[Hoffco]

Maybe we are asking the wrong question. Maybe we need to ask if God gives to each human a trial as God gave Adam and eve? A trial period to see if they will choose to obey or disobey God,? This assumes that each person would be born with a holy nature "very good": as Adam, OR at least, a neutral nature, not good or bad. Then we can assume God would give a "grace period" where we would be "saved", if we don't live to finish our trial period, (like, maybe 15 yrs old,OR a whole life up to death). I hope you are thinking, this thinking is totally unbiblical. But , is this not what "free will" teachers are demanding? They call the Bible and Jesus all wrong and want to have a free trial, just for themselves as God gave to Adam. No one with a rational brain would keep calling Jesus a liar and the Bible full of contradictions, which are, in reality, lies. Please, reason together with God, not against God. Love to all Hoffco. Please. keep in mind, that the Bible is written as a love letter, with very deep, hard to understand trues,. A bigoted mind can twist the Bible to say anything they want to say; AND even a "sincere" mind can be "sincerely wrong" if they don't know how to "mine" out the "gold" from he "dirt". And add to that problem, the purpose of GOD to "reveal" truth to some and to "hide" truth from others, to harden some hearts and to soften others. It is no easy task to interpret the Bible. The TRUTH is: Man is "dead,helpless, hopeless in sin", Only the "freewill" of God can save us from our selves.

 

[phil36]

no, I must disagree.. only if you do not have free will would it be a valid question.

free will means you have the freedom to do whatever you want.. otherwise, it would not be FREE will


so again, the more valid question would be, free will to do what?

I think you miss what I am saying. I believe that man is capable of making real and valid choices almost every second of the day, However, I will never choose to do something that is not me, not who I am. So my will is not free from my nature. for I will always choose from that nature. (I'm talking before being saved here). Man is morally incapable to make moral choices. they are a scripture says as filthy rags (good deeds, thoughts etc).

Your point makes no sense. You say your 'will' is free.. in order for it to be free, it must be free from the bounds of something. so what is your will free from?
.

 

[phil36]

What I believe is what I will to be and do. Thank you, and God through Son Christ has set ne free in God to be who I am as God hath shown me, I am free to choose. and I have chosen, thanks

what has Christ set you free from..i thought you had a free will already? (the in bold above..might aswell read.. I think, therefore I AM)

 

[Shilo]

I believe in free will, but also God's sovereignty, but I am having trouble finding scripture to validate my position when faced with questions about election and predestination. I know there must be free will, because we are held responsible for sin, but I also know that God has individually chosen us to be saved (John 6) (John 10:26) (Eph. 1:3-5) (Romans 9:13-18).
Is there a verse or a Biblical idea that allows these principles to coincide and not seem like contradictions? I know there must be something that I am missing.

Read the story of Jonah. Jonah was God's choice to bring his word to nineveh. Jonah took his free will and said no. Then he ran away from the Lord and headed for Tarshish. Then God brought something into his life that changed his mind.
then Jonah took his free will and decided to go God's way.

 

[thecreationtutor]

Free will to sin, yes. Free will to save ourselves, not really. The Bible tells us that we were DEAD in our trespasses.
A dead man cannot do anything to save himself. He is dead. And an enlightened man cannot do anything to cover his eyes and become blind again.


Ephesians 5:13-14 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. For this reason it says, "Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you."

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)...

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world...

The more I talk to atheists on facebook and the byways and highways of life - the more I know I didn't save myself, or choose to believe this stuff, God had to start it in me - good mercy - maybe the majority of people on here talk to people with a similar worldview, or who isn't aversive to Christianity

 

[oldhermit]

I have not weighed in on this conversation yet and have not bothered to read all the post on this thread so I do not know if this question has been addressed but, if man is not given free will, how would you explain temptation?

 

[Grace-Like-Rain]

I have not weighed in on this conversation yet and have not bothered to read all the post on this thread so I do not know if this question has been addressed but, if man is not given free will, how would you explain temptation?

God does often give us over to our own choices in life. But sometimes he intervenes (for our sake). In the matter of a Christian's salvation, he always intervenes, because otherwise we would always, always reject him. Men are fallen creatures without the ability to choose good aside from the grace given to us by God. We are all blind, until the blindfold is removed, and who removes the blindfold but God himself?