Distinctives of Dispensationalism

SarahM777 · Nov 22, 2013

UMMM Maxwell,

Zone was in this thread yesterday evening,you may want to get your glass checked. (Need new glasses myself so... been there)

zone · Nov 22, 2013

Drett said:

LOL drett!

zone · Nov 22, 2013

maxwel said:

oh sure....wait til i'm preoccupied with important stuff.
if i let go of that sting, your whole day would be ruin......hmmm

zone · Nov 22, 2013

SarahM777 said:

ya...but i got this weird call - "could i fill in on the Kermit float - emergency type-thing".

like...i even thought at the time, but dismissed it - "that sounds like Max".

zone · Nov 22, 2013

weakness said:

[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/QUOTE Nice color by the way...I guess I just had it in my mind about pre whatever rapture I believe those who are alive will be caught up to meet the lord in the air. I just don't think of that as the rapture I guess. Or like some thing that will anesthetize us from persecution and our testimony of being like Christ in the end of the world or the end of our earthly life. One way or another the day of Christ IS at hand and we should be watchful and not deceived by the deceiver. Personally my day of the Lord is getting closer by the day ...Pray for me...

weakness, this is what we all need to be prepared for

good message. i will pray for you.
send a PM if you like
zone

zone · Nov 22, 2013

ChosenbyHim said:

Well Sarah, you should first understand that salvation in the time of Jacob's trouble will be different than how salvation works now. People that get saved in the Time of Jacob's trouble will not be put into the body of Christ, and they will not get sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Today in the Church Age; when a Jew or Gentle gets saved, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:30) and are baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:12-13).

But again; in the time of Jacob's trouble, salvation won't be as it is today in the Church Age.

In the Church Age, every true born again Christian and believer has eternal security (Eph. 4:30), but in the time of Jacob's trouble, no one has eternal security EXCEPT the 144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes of Israel which have the Seal of God in their foreheads (Rev. 7:3).

Today in the Church Age, every genuine convert is baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:12-13). But when a person is saved in the time of Jacob's trouble, they are not placed into the Body of Christ, becsuse the Body of Christ has already been taken off the earth (2 Thess. 2:7).

Also today in the Church Age, every true convert gets washed from their sins in the blood of Jesus Christ by Jesus Christ Himself (Rev. 1:5).

In the Time of Jacob's trouble, a person who gets saved and makes it through the tribulation or who gets martyred for his faith will have washed his robe and will have made it white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 7:14).

In the Church Age; God makes no distinction between saved Jews (Christians) and saved Gentiles (Christians), for they are all one in Christ (Col. 3:11 & Gal. 3:28).

But in the Time of Jacob's trouble, God will make a distinction between Jews and Gentiles (Rev. 7).

So could you call a person who gets saved in the time of Jacob's trouble (the tribulation) a Christian?

Sure. Perhaps you could.

But I Simply call them Tribulation Saints since salvation in the time of Jacob's trouble is so different than salvation now in the Church Age. Even the process and nature of Salvation is very different between the two dispebsations. There are several Dispensational distinctions between salvation now in the Church Age and salvation in the time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th week). And that's why I refer to saved people in the time of Jacob's trouble (the tribulation) as Tribulation Saints and not as Christians. But if you Sarah, or anyone else wants to call them Christians. Well then obviously both you and them have that liberty to do so.

this is the most UNBIBLICAL and Heretical system satan ever devised.

this isn't Christianity.

SarahM777 · Nov 22, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

Sorry EG,

You and many others may not read it,there are those that will. It is not a simple little thing. Either there are historical FACTS that point to Revelation being mostly fulfilled or it does not. That is the truth. I for one do not like 15 second sound bites on complex issues. You yourself have not answered questions asked of you,and if you actually read the posts the question that you asked was answered.

zone · Nov 22, 2013

SarahM777 said:

since dispensationalism recycles the same prophecies - one would think its students would want to know how it went down once already....so they would know what to expect [1000x worse apparently].

SarahM777 · Nov 22, 2013

zone said:

Well somewhere in this they don't think it through what it would actually mean if God said that the ENTIRE globe lost 1/3 of it's sunlight the entire planet would within a month turn in into one giant ice cube. That in and of itself would destroy almost all of the plant life on the planet and not 1/3. There would no tropics at all.

zone · Nov 22, 2013

SarahM777 said:

but that's the "literal" intepretation.

so....soon we should see the milk and honey flowing down the banks of the hills in Israel (or summink)?
like....from a milk and honey glacier somewhere?

"literal"...until literal doesn't work.

a literal red dragon gets literally chained up; thrown into a literal bottomless pit - hey - if there's no bottom on it.....?

there's a literal blood-covered lamb in heaven with eyes all over it.

like?

SarahM777 · Nov 22, 2013

Well they do say one is in Canada.

zone · Nov 22, 2013

don't tell anyone!
i got enuff trouble keeping the locals outta my yard.

SarahM777 · Nov 22, 2013

zone said:

I don't think you have to worry about too many coming up to Canada. Most wouldn't like the winters especially in the interior. Someday I hope my backyard looks like that.

zone · Nov 22, 2013

SarahM777 said:

you can park yer Airstream here:

if we feel like it we can build ya a cabin.

let's take a ride first.

come on up sometime.
i'll take ya there.
it's awesome.

zone · Nov 22, 2013

what's not to like in the winter?

SarahM777 · Nov 22, 2013

zone said:

It would be somewhat of a home coming. (I found out I'm part Canadian) I always thought my great grandfather was born in Ireland and then came over. Nah he was born in London,ON.

SarahM777 · Nov 22, 2013

zone said:

The only thing is the 30-40 below zero weather. If you one of these for transport it wouldn't be so bad. Great gas mileage and eco friendly.

DecentGuy · Nov 22, 2013

zone said:

Pretty concentric post @zone
You are on topic IMHO

The bible is an interpretation of the people of that period of the time. I remember bible study and objecting to the literal translation. It is an Idea with many different aspects. The "eye for an eye" concept is gibberish and flies in the face of decency and the wonders of christian people..at least from my perspective...nothing is absolute...again gibberish..Religion institutions have long been corrupt.. "Borgious anyone?"

JMO, but real Christianity is people helping those in need. I have been helped, and going forward..My intent is to help others in need. Pretty simple concept.

Benevolent

SarahM777 · Nov 22, 2013

Revelation Chapter 13 (Part 1: Verses 1-10)

A. The Beast from the Sea—the First Beast (Rev. 13:1-10)Introduction/Disclaimer: In this five-part discussion, it will be suggested that the beast spoken of in this chapter is Nero, who ruled Rome from 54-68 AD. This premise flies in the face of the rather popular view that Revelation was written in 95 or 96 AD, so if this is new or troublesome to the reader, it may be helpful to first take a look at some compelling evidence that Revelation was written prior to 70 AD: [1] External evidence [2] Internal evidence (Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4). Other internal evidence for an early date for the writing of the book of Revelation has been presented in our previous Revelation studies (chapters 1-12), all of which can be found here.——————————————————————————————-Verse 1: We are introduced now to a beast which John describes as “rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.” The red dragon in Rev. 12:3 is also said to have “seven heads and ten horns,” and we know that this dragon is Satan (12:9), so this beast here in chapter 13 is clearly empowered by Satan. Additionally, it seems that “the sea” where mentioned elsewhere in this book refers to Gentiles [See the Appendix (D) in this post here, for a more detailed explanation of this pattern]. So this reference here is very likely a way of telling the first century reader that this beast is a prominent Gentile figure. This is similar to one of Daniel’s visions where he saw four great beasts coming “up out of the sea” (Daniel 7:3).We will be told more about this beast, here in chapter 13 and also in chapter 17, including details about its 10 horns and seven heads. Before proceeding, though, I think this is an appropriate place to note the twofold nature of the beast. The following quote is a helpful one, from Kenneth Gentry in his book “Before Jerusalem Fell” (1998, p. 310):

…John allows some shifting in his imagery of the Beast: the seven-headed Beast is here conceived generically as the Roman Empire, there specifically as one particular emperor. It is impossible to lock down the Beast imagery to either one referent or the other. At some places the Beast has seven-heads that are seven kings collectively considered (Rev. 13:1; Rev. 17:3, 9-10). Thus, he is generically portrayed as a kingdom with seven kings that arise in chronological succession (cf. Rev. 17:10-11). But then again in the very same contexts the Beast is spoken of as an individual (Rev. 13:18), as but one head among the seven (Rev. 17:11). This feature, as frustrating as it may be, is recognized by many commentators [emphasis added].

So the beast in Revelation is sometimes spoken of as an individual (specific sense) and sometimes as a kingdom (generic sense). It’s not surprising that the beast is interchangeably an individual and a kingdom, if ancient Rome is in view here. As Gentry also notes, the Roman poet Ovid (43 BC-18AD) once wrote regarding the emperor Augustus, “The state is Caesar.”We will now look ahead briefly to the passage referred to in Revelation 17:9-10, where John speaks of this same beast and explains what the seven heads are. The following information is taken from a term paper I wrote earlier this year, entitled, “A Partial-Preterist Perspective on the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD,” and can be found here:More compelling evidence for an early date is found in John’s reference to seven kings in Revelation 17:9-10, which states, “This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.” This description of the seven kings lines up well with historical data showing the emperors who reigned in the Roman Empire up until the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, which is as follows:[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Order of Emperors[/TD]
[TD]Name of Emperor[/TD]
[TD="width: 238"]Length of Reign[/TD]
[TD="width: 172"]Notes/Details[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 126"]#1[/TD]
[TD="width: 132"]Julius Caesar[/TD]
[TD="width: 238"]October 49 BC – March 44 BC[/TD]
[TD="width: 172"]“Perpetual Dictator”[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 126"]#2[/TD]
[TD="width: 132"]Augustus[/TD]
[TD="width: 238"]January 27 BC – August 14 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 172"]-time of Jesus’ birth[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 126"]#3[/TD]
[TD="width: 132"]Tiberius[/TD]
[TD="width: 238"]August 14 AD – March 37 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 172"]-time of Jesus’ ascension[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 126"]#4[/TD]
[TD="width: 132"]Caligula[/TD]
[TD="width: 238"]March 37 AD – January 41 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 172"]Murdered[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 126"]#5[/TD]
[TD="width: 132"]Claudius[/TD]
[TD="width: 238"]January 41 AD – October 54 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 172"]Assassinated[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 126"]#6[/TD]
[TD="width: 132"]Nero[/TD]
[TD="width: 238"]October 54 AD – June 68 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 172"]Committed suicide[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 126"]#7[/TD]
[TD="width: 132"]Galba[/TD]
[TD="width: 238"]June 68 AD – January 69 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 172"]Murdered[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 126"]#8[/TD]
[TD="width: 132"]Otho[/TD]
[TD="width: 238"]January 69 AD – April 69 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 172"]Committed suicide[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 126"]#9[/TD]
[TD="width: 132"]Vitellius[/TD]
[TD="width: 238"]April 69 AD – December 69AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 172"]Murdered[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 126"]#10[/TD]
[TD="width: 132"]Vespasian[/TD]
[TD="width: 238"]December 69 AD – June 79 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 172"]Destroyed Jerusalem[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Some historians do not consider Julius Caesar to be one of the emperors, and rather designate him as one who played a key role in transforming the Roman Republic into the Roman Empire. Flavius Josephus (37-100 AD), however, was one who did, and the above list reflects his own list in his writing titled Antiquities of the Jews (Books 18 and 19). Numerous Roman historians contemporary to Josephus agree. Among these were Dio Cassius and Suetonius (70-135 AD), who wrote Lives of the Twelve Caesars and De Vita Caesarum. Julius Caesar was appointed as “perpetual dictator” in 42 BC, so his inclusion in such a list would not have been strange.According to the above list, then, Nero was the “king” of whom John said “one is” (i.e. “he is reigning now”), and Galba was the one who had “not yet come.” Galba reigned only six months, making him a good candidate to be the one who “must remain only a little while.”The chart above indicates that there were more Roman emperors than were referenced by John. Kenneth Gentry quotes J. Russell Stuart, who spoke on this matter in his book Apocalypse:

But why only seven kings? First because the number seven is the reigning symbolic number of the book; then, secondly, because this covers the ground which the writer means specially to occupy, viz., it goes down to the period when the persecution then raging would cease (Gentry, Before Jerusalem Fell, p. 163).

We know that the imperial persecution initiated by Nero ceased with his death in 68 AD. Gentry makes the point that if it can be accepted that Revelation was written prior to that time, then “the enumeration of the ‘kings’ covers all of imperial history up until John’s time and the events ‘shortly’ to follow [a reference to the word ‘shortly’ in Rev. 1:1]… For then it would be the case that in John’s day only six emperors had ascended the imperial throne.”Regarding the reference to seven mountains, there should be no doubt that this is speaking of Rome, and even Futurist scholars generally concede this point (although they may anticipate a revival of the Roman Empire). Gentry also notes that the Coin of Vespasian (emperor of Rome from 69-79 AD) discovered by archaeologists pictures the goddess Roma as a woman seated on seven hills. Rome, the capital of the Roman Empire, is the one city in history famous for its seven mountains. First-century Rome used to celebrate a feast called Septimontium, the feast of “the seven-hilled city.”Revelation 13:1 also depicts the beast as having 10 horns, which John says in Rev. 17:12-13 are “ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. These are of one mind and hand over their power and authority to the beast.” Some have thought these 10 kings to be the very ones listed in the chart above, since all 10 of them reigned (or had begun to reign, in Vespasian’s case) before Jerusalem’s destruction. However, John wrote that in his day they had “not yet received royal power,” so this view is eliminated. Another more likely view is that these 10 kings were the rulers of the 10 empirical (senatorial) provinces of Rome who were empowered by Nero to assist him in carrying out his campaign of persecution against the saints, which Scripture refers to as “war on the Lamb” (Rev. 17:14; cf. Acts 9:5 where Paul, as an unbeliever, also made “war on the Lamb”).

Revelation Chapter 13 (Part 1: Verses 1-10) | Pursuing Truth

cont

SarahM777 · Nov 22, 2013

Cont

The Global Glossary on the Greco-Roman world says there were 10 Senatorial Provinces in ancient Rome: They were “areas that were governed by Roman pro-magistrates; there were ten senatorial provinces, eight of which were led by ex-praetors and two of which were led by ex-consuls.” Wikipedia lists these 10 Senatorial Provinces, as they existed in 14 AD, as follows: [1] Achaea [2] Africa [3] Asia [4] Creta et Cyrene [5] Cyprus [6] Gallia Narbonensis [7] Hispania Baetica [8] Macedonia [9] Pontus et Bithynia [10] Sicilia. One Biblical mention of a Roman provincial ruler is in Acts 18:12-17, where we are told of Gallio the “proconsul of Achaia.” In Cyprus, Paul and Barnabas had direct contact with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus (Acts 13:7). See here for more information on the Senatorial Provinces of the Roman Empire, and how and by whom authority was distributed.

Photo credit: http://gbgm-umc.org/UMW/corinthians/empire.stm (Original source: David Camden)

David Sielaff of Associates for Scriptural Knowledge answers the Futurist supposition that the beast will be a revived Roman empire, somehow corresponding with the European Union. He shows how this is impossible, since the borders of the EU are very much unlike the boundaries of the old Roman empire:

It is important to consider how the Roman Empire was constituted. It was a vast empire that spread from Britain in the north to south of Egypt, from Spain and North Africa in the west to the borders of Parthia (Iran today) in the east. In the 1st century, when the New Testament was written, the border of the Roman Empire in Europe stopped at the Rhine and Danube Rivers. It never included any significant portion of Germany or Eastern Europe. The center of the Roman Empire was never Gaul (France today). The heart of the Roman Empire in the 1st century were the great cities of Rome itself, Alexandria in Egypt, and the great Greek cities, with the great cities of Antioch, Damascus, and Jerusalem that were inland from the Mediterranean coast.Source: David Sielaff, The Ten Nations and the Roman Empire, http://www.askelm.com/news/n040724.htm, 2004.

Verse 2: The beast is now described in such a way that it incorporates the traits of all four beasts that Daniel saw in a vision in his day (Daniel 7:1-8): that of a leopard, a bear, a lion, and having ten horns. Bible scholars seem to be in general, if not full, agreement that the beasts in Daniel’s vision represented the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek, and Roman empires. Steve Gregg remarks (in his book, Revelation: Four Views [A Parallel Commentary], pp. 280, 282), “It is interesting that, when Paul was discussing his release from imprisonment under Nero, he remarked, “I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion” (2 Tim. 4:17).

Q: Whose power, throne, and authority were given to this first beast?
A: The beast’s power, throne, and authority came from “the dragon,” whom we know to be Satan from Revelation 12:9.Certain preterists, according to Steve Gregg, believe that “the concern of the Apocalypse has now shifted from the doom of Jerusalem to the judgment of Rome. Others, such as Milton Terry, think Rome is only brought into the picture as a chief agent of the judgment that came upon Jerusalem in A.D. 70.” I agree with Milton Terry, who adds that “we have before us the Roman empire as a persecuting power…conceived as the organ of the old serpent, the Devil, to persecute the scattered saints of God” (p. 280).

Revelation Chapter 13 (Part 1: Verses 1-10) | Pursuing Truth

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Distinctives of Dispensationalism

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