Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh
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Could mean many different things depending on how one reads the scriptures beforehand.
Messiah was a prophecy stretching back before Abraham. So, 'before Abraham, I am'.
Jesus is closer to God than Abraham. It could be that Jesus is saying 'I come before Abraham'.
This is my point; I am entitled to my belief, as you are yours. It bears no significance to what Jesus came to do and accomplish.
I still follow Jesus, regardless of my belief, or lack thereof, that He and God are the very same entity.
And it is certainly not my beliefs nor actions nor thoughts that one should hold to Christ, but rather one's own.
I feel I have received enough for me to discern my view on this topic. So I'm out.
Messiah was a prophecy stretching back before Abraham. So, 'before Abraham, I am'.
Jesus is closer to God than Abraham. It could be that Jesus is saying 'I come before Abraham'.
This is my point; I am entitled to my belief, as you are yours. It bears no significance to what Jesus came to do and accomplish.
I still follow Jesus, regardless of my belief, or lack thereof, that He and God are the very same entity.
And it is certainly not my beliefs nor actions nor thoughts that one should hold to Christ, but rather one's own.
I feel I have received enough for me to discern my view on this topic. So I'm out.
The problem is that most people don't know the meaning of the word 'manifest'
It does not mean that Jesus is God incarnated. That is never stated in the Bible and is not the same thing at all.
The word manifest means 'to show plainly' or 'to make clear the understanding' and in this Jesus showed God plainly to the world so that we may understand Him.
In doing the will of God and remaining sinless, despite temptation, Jesus showed us all that God loves us.
Jesus was the anointed of God (i.e. the Messiah) and was the Son of God. And he manifested God to us.
It does not mean that Jesus is God incarnated. That is never stated in the Bible and is not the same thing at all.
The word manifest means 'to show plainly' or 'to make clear the understanding' and in this Jesus showed God plainly to the world so that we may understand Him.
In doing the will of God and remaining sinless, despite temptation, Jesus showed us all that God loves us.
Jesus was the anointed of God (i.e. the Messiah) and was the Son of God. And he manifested God to us.
“Great is the mystery of piety:
God was manifested in the flesh”
God was manifested in the flesh”
The Orthodox Concept regarding the nature of Christ.
The divine and human nature was united in a hypostatic union, without mingling, confusion or alteration. God the Logos took flesh from the Holy Virgin and, “The Holy Spirit purified and sanctified the Virgin’s womb so that the Child to whom she gave birth would inherit nothing of the original sin”.
The first statement is fully Orthodox and very sound indeed. But as for the second statement
in the above - the Orthodox Church never taught a doctrine of ”original sin”, but
always maintained that mankind has a liability to sin, which is know as the ancestral sin.
The doctrine of ”original sin” was created in the Western Church, first suggested by St.
Augustine, but later systematized and dogmatized by Anselm in the Latin Church. The
idea of original sin leads to the depressing concept of the total depravity of mankind. The
Orthodox teaching is that even though mankind exists in a fallen state, the image of God
was not destroyed but only distorted.Man did not inherit any ”original guilt” from
Adam. St. Cyril of Alexandria says, “How could all we who were not yet born, all be
condemned with him...?Furthermore such a geneologically inherited original guilt
does not correspond with the Angel’s salutation to the Virgin Mary, ”Rejoice thou who
hast been shown grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women”.St. Leo
says, ”What was assumed from the Lord’s mother was nature, not fault”.There was no
”immaculate conception”, like taught in the Western Church, but the Virgin Mary was
purified when she accepted to bear God in the flesh, and became the Theotokos.
The divine and human nature was united in a hypostatic union, without mingling, confusion or alteration. God the Logos took flesh from the Holy Virgin and, “The Holy Spirit purified and sanctified the Virgin’s womb so that the Child to whom she gave birth would inherit nothing of the original sin”.
The first statement is fully Orthodox and very sound indeed. But as for the second statement
in the above - the Orthodox Church never taught a doctrine of ”original sin”, but
always maintained that mankind has a liability to sin, which is know as the ancestral sin.
The doctrine of ”original sin” was created in the Western Church, first suggested by St.
Augustine, but later systematized and dogmatized by Anselm in the Latin Church. The
idea of original sin leads to the depressing concept of the total depravity of mankind. The
Orthodox teaching is that even though mankind exists in a fallen state, the image of God
was not destroyed but only distorted.Man did not inherit any ”original guilt” from
Adam. St. Cyril of Alexandria says, “How could all we who were not yet born, all be
condemned with him...?Furthermore such a geneologically inherited original guilt
does not correspond with the Angel’s salutation to the Virgin Mary, ”Rejoice thou who
hast been shown grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women”.St. Leo
says, ”What was assumed from the Lord’s mother was nature, not fault”.There was no
”immaculate conception”, like taught in the Western Church, but the Virgin Mary was
purified when she accepted to bear God in the flesh, and became the Theotokos.
This unity of natures lead to the formation of “The One Nature of God” ,
says Pope Shenouda quoting St. Cyril of Alexandria. The term “Monophysite”
has been misinterpreted through the centuries, and has led to a false
understanding among the Churches accepting the council of Chalcedon, that
the Oriental Churches holding the Monophysite Christology, only believes in
one nature of Christ and denies the other. Pope Shenouda says, “We wonder
which of the two natures the Church of Alexandria denies?”8 It cannot be the
divine nature, since the Alexandrian Church fought against Arianism. According
says Pope Shenouda quoting St. Cyril of Alexandria. The term “Monophysite”
has been misinterpreted through the centuries, and has led to a false
understanding among the Churches accepting the council of Chalcedon, that
the Oriental Churches holding the Monophysite Christology, only believes in
one nature of Christ and denies the other. Pope Shenouda says, “We wonder
which of the two natures the Church of Alexandria denies?”8 It cannot be the
divine nature, since the Alexandrian Church fought against Arianism. According
to the Oriental Christology, “The expression One Nature does not indicate the Divine Nature alone nor the human nature alone, but it indicates the
unity of both natures into One Nature which is the The Nature of the Incarnate
Logos”.9 It can be likened to the human nature, which is composed of two
united natures - soul and body. The divine nature is hypostatically united
with the human nature. The expression “two natures” suggests separation or
division, and this was why the Coptic Church rejected Chalcedon, where the,
“tone of separation”, was obvious.
unity of both natures into One Nature which is the The Nature of the Incarnate
Logos”.9 It can be likened to the human nature, which is composed of two
united natures - soul and body. The divine nature is hypostatically united
with the human nature. The expression “two natures” suggests separation or
division, and this was why the Coptic Church rejected Chalcedon, where the,
“tone of separation”, was obvious.
Let us listen to St. John of Damascus, ”How is it possible for the same nature to be at
once created and uncreated, mortal and immortal, circumscribed and uncircumscribed?
...How can they ever say that Christ has two natures, while they are asserting that after
the union He has one compound nature? For it is obvious to anyone that, before the
union, Christ had one nature”. This is of course the Divine nature, since the flesh
which the Lord took from the Mother of God was not pre-existent or consubstantial with
the Divine Logos. What He took from the Virgin was created human nature. And when
we speak of the human nature, ”...all share the nature of the soul and possess the
substance of the body”. They form one species made up of human hypostases, individual
beings with a soul and a body. However Jesus Christ is not an individual out of
many, and there is no ”Christ-species” with whom He shares His hypostasis, because we
are speaking about the Hypostasis of the second Person of the Holy Trinity. His Hypostasis
is therefore different from the individual human hypostasis. His is one composite
person (hypostasis) because, ”His natures are united in His person...and in this He
differs both from the Father and the Spirit and from His Mother and us”. Again –
Christ is not an individual, and therefore the union of the soul and body in one human
nature cannot be compared to the union of the Divine nature and human nature in one
Divine hypostasis!
More of the subyect here:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/coptic-christology-a-commentary.pdf
once created and uncreated, mortal and immortal, circumscribed and uncircumscribed?
...How can they ever say that Christ has two natures, while they are asserting that after
the union He has one compound nature? For it is obvious to anyone that, before the
union, Christ had one nature”. This is of course the Divine nature, since the flesh
which the Lord took from the Mother of God was not pre-existent or consubstantial with
the Divine Logos. What He took from the Virgin was created human nature. And when
we speak of the human nature, ”...all share the nature of the soul and possess the
substance of the body”. They form one species made up of human hypostases, individual
beings with a soul and a body. However Jesus Christ is not an individual out of
many, and there is no ”Christ-species” with whom He shares His hypostasis, because we
are speaking about the Hypostasis of the second Person of the Holy Trinity. His Hypostasis
is therefore different from the individual human hypostasis. His is one composite
person (hypostasis) because, ”His natures are united in His person...and in this He
differs both from the Father and the Spirit and from His Mother and us”. Again –
Christ is not an individual, and therefore the union of the soul and body in one human
nature cannot be compared to the union of the Divine nature and human nature in one
Divine hypostasis!
More of the subyect here:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/coptic-christology-a-commentary.pdf
I am sorry to inform you that when my LORD JESUS CHRIST stated that he was " I AM..." ... my LORD JESUS CHRIST was stating he was GOD and EVERY Jew would of recognized that statement for GOD HIMSELF stated to Moses " I AM..." so that EVERY child of GOD may know who the " GREAT I AM " truly is and that there is no other GOD except GOD HIMSELF.
Actually the verse you refer to is a comparison of Jesus with Abraham.
The verse can be interpreted in 2 ways - the way that Jesus said he was God - the wording is meaningless in this construction as the cured cripple uses THE VERY SAME language in the same chapter and no-one thinks it wrong.
It can also be interpreted in the way it was said
Jesus stated he was more important then Abraham in the mind of God.
This was considered blasphemy to the Jews as they practically worshiped Abraham as the Father of their nation and belief.
Read it without preconceptions and it's pretty clear - especially if one reads the Bible from start to finish without the opinions of others.
The translation is a bit warped because of KJV guys already in the "be trinitarian or die" attitude of the church. Look at the original or just don't have pre-taught attitudes. It's different.
They really hated him because he said he was better and more than Abraham!!!
It's like a modern day guy coming up in Islam and saying he was more important than Mohammad - it would be treated as blasphemy. No equivalency with God is needed or stated.
The verse can be interpreted in 2 ways - the way that Jesus said he was God - the wording is meaningless in this construction as the cured cripple uses THE VERY SAME language in the same chapter and no-one thinks it wrong.
It can also be interpreted in the way it was said
Jesus stated he was more important then Abraham in the mind of God.
This was considered blasphemy to the Jews as they practically worshiped Abraham as the Father of their nation and belief.
Read it without preconceptions and it's pretty clear - especially if one reads the Bible from start to finish without the opinions of others.
The translation is a bit warped because of KJV guys already in the "be trinitarian or die" attitude of the church. Look at the original or just don't have pre-taught attitudes. It's different.
They really hated him because he said he was better and more than Abraham!!!
It's like a modern day guy coming up in Islam and saying he was more important than Mohammad - it would be treated as blasphemy. No equivalency with God is needed or stated.
O
Because people don't understand that God was both, and that the Holy Trinity represents 3 titles God had to fulfill.
Jesus was called the " Son" because he set the example for the children of God. Only a parent can teach their child. However, Jesus also came to establish the New Covenant and make salvation even possible for us.
Jesus was in very nature God; and he dwelt among us. Only God can forgive sins, so for Jesus to proclaim he could do this, even though he was below God, would have been wrong.
That is the mystery of Christ; the image of God and the fact that Christ is God in the flesh. Our feeble minds cannot conceive it, because we fail to realize how great the power of God is. You think putting on a flesh suit is too hard for God? Or below him? God is a humble Spirit.
Not to mention everyone ignores the fact that believing in Jesus Christ as the savior was a testament to one's true faith in God; this is why Jesus never outwardly said, " yes I am God," because through the actions of Jesus which the bible prophesied about hundreds of years ahead of time, if the believer had true faith in God, they would have come to recognize him as Savior.
As our loving Father.
The fact that you see those who don't believe Christ was God, are the same as the people who would have doubted Jesus as the Christ in the OT times, because the people in those times were waiting for Elijah and failed to recognize that this mere man was actually God in the flesh.
Jesus was called the " Son" because he set the example for the children of God. Only a parent can teach their child. However, Jesus also came to establish the New Covenant and make salvation even possible for us.
Jesus was in very nature God; and he dwelt among us. Only God can forgive sins, so for Jesus to proclaim he could do this, even though he was below God, would have been wrong.
That is the mystery of Christ; the image of God and the fact that Christ is God in the flesh. Our feeble minds cannot conceive it, because we fail to realize how great the power of God is. You think putting on a flesh suit is too hard for God? Or below him? God is a humble Spirit.
Not to mention everyone ignores the fact that believing in Jesus Christ as the savior was a testament to one's true faith in God; this is why Jesus never outwardly said, " yes I am God," because through the actions of Jesus which the bible prophesied about hundreds of years ahead of time, if the believer had true faith in God, they would have come to recognize him as Savior.
As our loving Father.
The fact that you see those who don't believe Christ was God, are the same as the people who would have doubted Jesus as the Christ in the OT times, because the people in those times were waiting for Elijah and failed to recognize that this mere man was actually God in the flesh.
P
yes
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit
Three persons in one
He is triune in nature
And yes the he comes as a person
... Since Jesus
Lives in us, we begin to take on His character, His
Kindness, His thoughts, His words his forgiveness, his
Mercy, His grace... Because He has given all these things to us "first"...
when we come to fully know tjese things which have been given to is also
By God, it is then and only then ... Christ in us is able
To do these very things towards others ... Doing as Jesus does continually for us each day...
If we are not able to release any of what Jesus is doing for us, there could solu be we haven't come
To know him intimately or deeply in this area of our relationship with Him...
No one can do this for is and we will nit be able to understand it until tjat part of the relationship is first fixed with God... As He wants the first of everything and will hand no man this glory....
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit
Three persons in one
He is triune in nature
And yes the he comes as a person
... Since Jesus
Lives in us, we begin to take on His character, His
Kindness, His thoughts, His words his forgiveness, his
Mercy, His grace... Because He has given all these things to us "first"...
when we come to fully know tjese things which have been given to is also
By God, it is then and only then ... Christ in us is able
To do these very things towards others ... Doing as Jesus does continually for us each day...
If we are not able to release any of what Jesus is doing for us, there could solu be we haven't come
To know him intimately or deeply in this area of our relationship with Him...
No one can do this for is and we will nit be able to understand it until tjat part of the relationship is first fixed with God... As He wants the first of everything and will hand no man this glory....
i am sorry to say that you are even incorrect in stating this as well... forgive for being straight forward for my intentions are not to belittle in anyway... but only for the truth to be revealed...
also i am NOT a trinitarian/ nor a binitarian/ nor a unitarian/ nor a modalism/ nor any other wrong belief in the GODHEAD...
well then lets go by GOD'S HOLY WORD to prove what GOD is TRULY SAYING...
and if YOU can.. please keep this in mind as YOU study this sincerely...
2 PETER 1:20-21...
20. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
so STOP ADDING what you believe it says or what anyone else says... and just believe GOD'S HOLY WORD as is... for it needs NO ONE TO INTERPRET HIS HOLY WORD for it says what it says...
lets begin...
JOHN 8:58...
58. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
now we see that my LORD JESUS CHRIST is clearly stating that BEFORE Abraham, was " I AM... " ... so our question would be then who is " I AM " and was this " I AM " also BEFORE ABRAHAM?
lets review what Moses heard...
EXODUS 3:13-16...
13. And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14. And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,
I Am hath sent me unto you.
15. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
16. Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:
did you notice GOD'S HOLY WORDS in red... so it clearly states that " I AM " is GOD HIMSELF... which in turn my LORD JESUS CHRIST STATES to the Jews who clearly knew and know what " I AM " truly meant in the past, as well as then, and even now... past, present, future... FOREVER THE SAME AND UNCHANGING...
which is amazing because later we have Moses seeing GOD'S BACK... and it is the HOLY SPIRIT form of GOD HIMSELF... for GOD IS A HOLY SPIRIT AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE SELFSAME GOD HIMSELF... NOT two or three separate distinct coequal beings...
that which never was born nor dies... can only be GOD HIMSELF... GOD IS ETERNAL... ALWAYS WAS... ALWAYS IS... ALWAYS SHALL BE...
ISAIAH 9:6...
6. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
BEAUTIFUL how GOD'S HOLY WORD reveals himself to us when we FINALLY move out of the way and let GOD speak and show us HIS OWN HOLY WORD and VINDICATES it...
also i am NOT a trinitarian/ nor a binitarian/ nor a unitarian/ nor a modalism/ nor any other wrong belief in the GODHEAD...
well then lets go by GOD'S HOLY WORD to prove what GOD is TRULY SAYING...
and if YOU can.. please keep this in mind as YOU study this sincerely...
2 PETER 1:20-21...
20. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
so STOP ADDING what you believe it says or what anyone else says... and just believe GOD'S HOLY WORD as is... for it needs NO ONE TO INTERPRET HIS HOLY WORD for it says what it says...
lets begin...
JOHN 8:58...
58. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
now we see that my LORD JESUS CHRIST is clearly stating that BEFORE Abraham, was " I AM... " ... so our question would be then who is " I AM " and was this " I AM " also BEFORE ABRAHAM?
lets review what Moses heard...
EXODUS 3:13-16...
13. And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14. And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,
I Am hath sent me unto you.
15. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
16. Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:
did you notice GOD'S HOLY WORDS in red... so it clearly states that " I AM " is GOD HIMSELF... which in turn my LORD JESUS CHRIST STATES to the Jews who clearly knew and know what " I AM " truly meant in the past, as well as then, and even now... past, present, future... FOREVER THE SAME AND UNCHANGING...
which is amazing because later we have Moses seeing GOD'S BACK... and it is the HOLY SPIRIT form of GOD HIMSELF... for GOD IS A HOLY SPIRIT AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE SELFSAME GOD HIMSELF... NOT two or three separate distinct coequal beings...
that which never was born nor dies... can only be GOD HIMSELF... GOD IS ETERNAL... ALWAYS WAS... ALWAYS IS... ALWAYS SHALL BE...
ISAIAH 9:6...
6. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
BEAUTIFUL how GOD'S HOLY WORD reveals himself to us when we FINALLY move out of the way and let GOD speak and show us HIS OWN HOLY WORD and VINDICATES it...
Jesus Christ was the God of the nation of Israel who manifested in the flesh.
He was convicted of blasphemy for saying that he was Christ, the SOn of the blessed.
Follow the logic of the Sanhedrin:
Christ = the Son of GOD = the Mighty God = the God of Israel = Yahweh.
Jews to this day do not believe that God will leave his splendid and luxurious abode in heaven
and come to the earth and live lowly among sinners.
Worse yet to be a servant to men....
The Prophets told them differently....
The same God be with you.
He was convicted of blasphemy for saying that he was Christ, the SOn of the blessed.
Follow the logic of the Sanhedrin:
Christ = the Son of GOD = the Mighty God = the God of Israel = Yahweh.
Jews to this day do not believe that God will leave his splendid and luxurious abode in heaven
and come to the earth and live lowly among sinners.
Worse yet to be a servant to men....
The Prophets told them differently....
The same God be with you.
B
That is thinking like an young child. God offered himself through the offering of his Son as a sacrifice for sin. The sin offering was made by the Son to the Father on behalf of sinners lost through sin. It really happened just that way and we benefit from that when we believe and are justified once and forever.