A True New Testament Church

[Elin]

I submit that the name calling of "Judaizers" be changed to "Israelizers." When understanding the Old Testament better we can safely say that Judah (Jew) was confined to one location and was not part of Greece, Turkey and other surrounding areas. Israel for sure had the writings of Moses, and the prophets when they were dispersed by the Assyrians, long before Judah was captured by the Babylonians.
Stop using the word "Judaizer" for the Jews had a major problem with the truth revealed by the apostles.

That's exactly why Judaizer is the right word.

It applies to those who have a problem with the apostolic truth of the NT,

wanting to subject it to the OT, perfectly exemplified in the warping of Jesus' statement,

"On these two, hang all the law and the Prophets," by reversing

the grammatical subject and the grammatical object of his clear and unequivocal statement.

That is Judaizer warping of the NT, which has been going on for 2,000 years now.

 

[Elin]

These words of love were said before Israel entered the promised land. It was not only the commandments of that day, but also a promise in prophecy for today. The love commandments (containing all of what God had told Moses up to that point) were for them then, and also for us now,

These two commandments were never before linked as a summary of the Mosaic law,
nor nowhere was it ever stated before that
"On these two, hang all the law and the prophets."

Why this need to warp Jesus' statement instead of taking it as he stated it?

and I read nowhere in the Bible that God's initial exhortations have changed from then to now.

Because there was no initial exhortation which linked these two laws as a summary of the Mosaic law.

They stood individually among them, as did all the rest of the individual Mosaic laws.

These people were under the "LAW OF LOVE" instead of over it. Jesus never said "get over it," and neither did Paul. Jesus broke down the wall of separation that these laws of love revealed. If the law had been changed, this revealing light to identify this wall would be worthless, and the wall would stay there because we couldn't see it..

Okay, let me see if I have this straight.

These laws of love revealed a "wall of separation," which Jesus broke down.

So what specifically was this "wall of separation," and how did he break it down?

 

[just-me]

Okay, let me see if I have this straight.

These laws of love revealed a "wall of separation," which Jesus broke down.

So what specifically was this "wall of separation," and how did he break it down?

I am surprised that you don't know. We conversed about "enmity" in the past.

Ephesians 2:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Does not the attributes of love want the separation destroyed? Would God not want to shed the light on darkness so the "enmity" could be seen by us, realizing we NEED salvation in Christ? Without the law we would not see the need for a Savior, or the beauty thereof.

 

[Elin]

I am surprised that you don't know. We conversed about "enmity" in the past.

Ephesians 2:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

You've got a better memory than mine, my dear brother.

Slain the enmity between whom?

What was the cause of this enmity?

How did the laws of love reveal it?

How did Jesus break it down?

I kinda' need concrete answers.

 

[just-me]

You've got a better memory than mine, my brother.

Slain the enmity between whom?

What was the cause of this enmity?


How did the laws of love reveal it?

How did Jesus break it down?

Sin. And the law is not sin. The revelation of sin is seen through the law. You know that. Refresh and read what I added to my last post.

 

[just-me]

Let’s take it step by step. In Ephesians it says, “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity.”
From the Strong’s Concordance the word “abolished” means entirely idle, inactive, as not in motion. “Enmity” is the hostility that gives way for opposition.

For more detail, the first part of Ephesians 2:15 could read “Having stopped the motion by carrying the opposition that leads to hostility.” So far we are good. Where the problem arises is this next phrase. “Even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.”
Now we have proven the point that the law has been abolished, but oopsy-daisy, Jesus says it isn’t.

Where we can reconcile these scriptures, is to incorporate the next verse in Ephesians.

Ephesians 2:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

So, instead of connecting the phrase “even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;” with the word “abolished,” we must connect the word “abolished” to “enmity.”

To summarize:
The law no longer reveals enmity/a division between God and those who are saved. Scripture tells us that the enmity or division, is gone, and the law which is still relevant, can only reveal a division between God and those who are not saved.

 

[Elin]

Sin. And the law is not sin. The revelation of sin is seen through the law. You know that. Refresh and read what I added to my last post.

Okay, you remember that we discussed it, and I don't remember.

But you don't remember the content of that discussion, and I do.
So let me refresh your memory.

"Jesus destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations." (Eph 2:14-15)

Jesus abolished the Mosaic ceremonial laws, which were the dividing wall of hostility.

How were they a dividing wall?

The Mosaic ceremonial food laws, in particular, made all Gentiles unclean to Jews, causing Jews to despise them as unclean.

"His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two" (Eph 2:15)

The purpose of Jesus death was to create one new man out of Jews and Gentiles together.

"thus making peace," (Eph 2:15)

Jesus' first purpose was to make peace between Jew and Gentile, by creating one new man, the Church.

"and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God" (Eph 2:16)

Having created one new body of Jews and Gentiles (body of believers),
Jesus' second purpose was to reconcile this one body to God.

"through the cross by which he put to death their hostility." (Eph 2:16)

Jesus' death on the cross put to death the hostility
between Jew and Gentile, by abolishing the Mosaic ceremonial laws, and
between God and believers, by atonement for their sin.

None of this has bearing on the two laws on which hang all the law and prophets.

 

[john832]

Okay, you remember that we discussed it, and I don't remember.

But you don't remember the content of that discussion, and I do.
So let me refresh your memory.

"Jesus destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations." (Eph 2:14-15)

Jesus abolished the Mosaic ceremonial laws, which were the dividing wall of hostility.

How were they a dividing wall?

The Mosaic ceremonial food laws, in particular, made all Gentiles unclean to Jews, causing Jews to despise them as unclean.

"His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two" (Eph 2:15)

The purpose of Jesus death was to create one new man out of Jews and Gentiles together.

"thus making peace," (Eph 2:15)

Jesus' first purpose was to make peace between Jew and Gentile, by creating one new man, the Church.

"and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God" (Eph 2:16)

Having created one new body of Jews and Gentiles (body of believers),
Jesus' second purpose was to reconcile this one body to God.

"through the cross by which he put to death their hostility." (Eph 2:16)

Jesus' death on the cross put to death the hostility
between Jew and Gentile, by abolishing the Mosaic ceremonial laws, and
between God and believers, by atonement for their sin.

None of this has bearing on the two laws on which hang all the law and prophets.

So the source of hostility between the Jews and Gentiles was not Satan all along, it was those silly old Laws of God?

 

[Elin]

Let’s take it step by step. In Ephesians it says, “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity.”
From the Strong’s Concordance the word “abolished” means entirely idle, inactive, as not in motion. “Enmity” is the hostility that gives way for opposition.

For more detail, the first part of Ephesians 2:15 could read “Having stopped the motion by carrying the opposition that leads to hostility.” So far we are good. Where the problem arises is this next phrase. “Even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.”
Now we have proven the point that the law has been abolished, but oopsy-daisy, Jesus says it isn’t.

Where we can reconcile these scriptures, is to incorporate the next verse in Ephesians.

Ephesians 2:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

So, instead of connecting the phrase “even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;” with the word “abolished,” we must connect the word “abolished” to “enmity.”

The grammatical construction of the sentence does not allow "enmity" as the grammatical object of "abolished."

The grammatical construction of the sentence makes the "death of enmity"
the grammatical object of Jesus' death, and not the grammatical object of "abolished,"
whose object is "the law with its commandments and regulations."

 

[just-me]

Okay, you remember that we discussed it, and I don't remember.

But you don't remember the content of that discussion, and I do.
So let me refresh your memory.

"Jesus destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations." (Eph 2:14-15)

Jesus abolished the Mosaic ceremonial laws, which were the dividing wall of hostility.

How were they a dividing wall?

The Mosaic ceremonial food laws, in particular, made all Gentiles unclean to Jews, causing Jews to despise them as unclean.

"His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two" (Eph 2:15)

The purpose of Jesus death was to create one new man out of Jews and Gentiles together.

"thus making peace," (Eph 2:15)

Jesus' first purpose was to make peace between Jew and Gentile, by creating one new man, the Church.

"and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God" (Eph 2:16)

Having created one new body of Jews and Gentiles (body of believers),
Jesus' second purpose was to reconcile this one body to God.

"through the cross by which he put to death their hostility." (Eph 2:16)

Jesus' death on the cross put to death the hostility
between Jew and Gentile, by abolishing the Mosaic ceremonial laws, and
between God and believers, by atonement for their sin.

None of this has bearing on the two laws on which hang all the law and prophets.

so we quote this scripture in context. You didn't need to refresh my memory, and we do not agree it abolished the division between the Jew and the Greek. I know what you think about these three verses,and I do not agree with your take. We don't need to go over it again. But every time you get to the 16th verse something gets missed that makes verses 14 and 15 totally messed up.

Ephesians 2:14-16 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

"Thereby" is pointing toward the schoolmaster that exposes the "enmity." Neither the law or ordinances were killed. The cross wasn't just for the purpose of putting Jews and Gentiles together. It was to put God and man together. If you were right, then John 3:16 would read something like this. For God loved the Israelites so much. When you quoted verse 16 you didn't mention the "enmity" but you mentioned with a foot note of "creating" rather than abolishing in verse 15. These three verses denote clearly that the division between God and man exposed by the law was abolished. Taking verse 19 into consideration it sounds as if you think that the Jews were saints first before the Gentiles who were foreigners because they didn't live in the same proximity as the Jews.

Ephesians 2:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Let's look at the introduction to this concept as Paul addresses the Gentiles in Ephesus.

Ephesians 1:19-23 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Ephesians 2:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

This is the end result
Ephesians 3:1-3a (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;

 

[Elin]

so we quote this scripture in context. You didn't need to refresh my memory, and we do not agree it abolished the division between the Jew and the Greek. I know what you think about these three verses,and I do not agree with your take. We don't need to go over it again. But every time you get to the 16th verse something gets missed that makes verses 14 and 15 totally messed up.

Ephesians 2:14-16 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

In addition to reconciling Jew and Gentile,
the cross also reconciled both Jew and Gentile to God in the one body of believers (the Church)
by its atonement for sin, which thereby put to death (slay) the enmity
between both (the one body of Jews and Gentiles) and God.

It's a matter of grammar, and there is a lot of amateur "exegesis" out there which just snakes around through the text, ignoring the grammatical construction of the Greek, in order to make it come out in agreement with their theology.

It would be helpful to consult better exegeters.

 

[secularhermit]

You do understand that God does not believe in us,
that there is nothing in us of ourselves for him to believe in,
that we are just clay jars in which is the treasure of his grace and work.

All that we have and and all we are that are pleasing to him are from him, not ourselves.

It is God's own work in us that delights him.

God does not have faith in us, he has faith in his own work in us.
Rather, it is we that have faith in God.

Here we both can have and get diferent opinions, there would be ONE day HE will tell HIS beliefs and likes.

Just one thing, I would not let my children die for a person they don´t know, they don´t like... Of course, they are free to believe in patriotism and all the beliefs they can think of but, if I were GOD, I would stop them for dying... My point is: Jesus died willingly? Did He ask His FATHER will?

He died because HE knew HIS Father´s will. He prayed to avoid that death. It was because of God´s will that HIS Son die for us, impure clay.

 

[Karraster]

The grammatical construction of the sentence does not allow "enmity" as the grammatical object of "abolished."

The grammatical construction of the sentence makes the "death of enmity"
the grammatical object of Jesus' death, and not the grammatical object of "abolished,"
whose object is "the law with its commandments and regulations."

...what law is being addressed? Thou shalt not steal? lie? Murder? Sabbath?

The law of a man cannot take back a wife he divorced, she is not free to remarry unless her husband is dead?

 

[chubbena]

That's exactly why Judaizer is the right word.

It applies to those who have a problem with the apostolic truth of the NT,

wanting to subject it to the OT, perfectly exemplified in the warping of Jesus' statement,

"On these two, hang all the law and the Prophets," by reversing

the grammatical subject and the grammatical object of his clear and unequivocal statement.

That is Judaizer warping of the NT, which has been going on for 2,000 years now.

It wasn't a problem with the 1st century believers because back then the first 39 books in the bible were called the scripture rather than Old Testament and many of the last 27 books were not available for the general public yet.

 

[Karraster]

It wasn't a problem with the 1st century believers because back then the first 39 books in the bible were called the scripture rather than Old Testament and many of the last 27 books were not available for the general public yet.

That post was over the top good!!

 

[Elin]

That's exactly why Judaizer is the right word.

It applies to those who have a problem with the apostolic truth of the NT,

wanting to subject it to the OT, perfectly exemplified in the warping of Jesus' statement,

"On these two, hang all the law and the Prophets," by reversing

the grammatical subject and the grammatical object of his clear and unequivocal statement.

That is Judaizer warping of the NT, which has been going on for 2,000 years now.

It wasn't a problem with the 1st century believers because back then the first 39 books in the bible were called the scripture rather than Old Testament and many of the last 27 books were not available for the general public yet.

Paul testifies to the contrary (Gal 1:6-9).

 

[Elin]

So the source of hostility between the Jews and Gentiles was not Satan all along, it was
those silly old Laws of God?

Your appellation of the Mosaic law, which was used by the Jews as reason to despise Gentiles,
is regrettable.

Your exegesis of Eph 2:15-16 according to its grammatical construction in the Greek would be welcome.

 

[homwardbound]

Neither have I, yet where would we be without the instructions? Without instructions, children will never know why their parents act discussed toward them. The instructions exemplify their love for their children.

1 Corinthians 11:32 (KJV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP]But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Hebrews 12:4-8 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

1 John 4:7-13 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

John and Paul both knew the Mosaic law very well according to what God had revealed to them in the truth found therein. John also wrote John 3:16

I highlighted the top and agree with you, yet it all depends on how it is used for I know and am convinced that all things are clean of itself, by Christ at the cross it is finished, completed, made perfect.
So to me it is what I do with it that makes the Law unclean, and that is how "I" go about using it on others
Anyway, love your love God has permeated through you

 

[homwardbound]

Let’s take it step by step. In Ephesians it says, “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity.”
From the Strong’s Concordance the word “abolished” means entirely idle, inactive, as not in motion. “Enmity” is the hostility that gives way for opposition.

For more detail, the first part of Ephesians 2:15 could read “Having stopped the motion by carrying the opposition that leads to hostility.” So far we are good. Where the problem arises is this next phrase. “Even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.”
Now we have proven the point that the law has been abolished, but oopsy-daisy, Jesus says it isn’t.

Where we can reconcile these scriptures, is to incorporate the next verse in Ephesians.

Ephesians 2:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

So, instead of connecting the phrase “even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;” with the word “abolished,” we must connect the word “abolished” to “enmity.”

To summarize:
The law no longer reveals enmity/a division between God and those who are saved. Scripture tells us that the enmity or division, is gone, and the law which is still relevant, can only reveal a division between God and those who are not saved.

So, bottom line does this not show the war of man flesh and the Spirit of God that the enmity was and is the flesh of mankind. That Christ broke this down died in the flesh for us to consider and then through belief, believe we are also dead in the flesh, and now alive, born again in the Spirit of God by the same resurrected Christ, a gift from Father to all those that believe through Christ?

 

[homwardbound]

In addition to reconciling Jew and Gentile,
the cross also reconciled both Jew and Gentile to God in the one body of believers (the Church)
by its atonement for sin, which thereby put to death (slay) the enmity
between both (the one body of Jews and Gentiles) and God.

It's a matter of grammar, and there is a lot of amateur "exegesis" out there which just snakes around through the text, ignoring the grammatical construction of the Greek, in order to make it come out in agreement with their theology.

It would be helpful to consult better exegeters.

Bottom line
Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.