Please Answer Sabbath Question

[RedTent]

i dont understand ?

All I know about the verse is that, the verse is about when antichrist is actually here.

The verse is about when man will change religious festivals and laws. That is being done by the anti Christ, now. The anti Christ is in our churches, working for this change.

Daniel 25 He will speak words against the Most High and oppress the holy ones of the Most High. He will intend to change religious festivals and laws, and the holy ones will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time.

 

[Historicist]

Nathan, there is only one Command that is about time and Law...

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

None of the other Commandments have a time intrinsic to them, only the fourth one...

john832, as a supporter of the historical Sunday position I would like to remind everyone that neither "Saturday" nor "Sunday" are in the text of the fourth commandment. Days of the week were not known by names during the Bible narrative. This is assumed only, by those who take a Saturday position. The time referred to in the fourth commandment is one day in a cycle of sevens. It says no more than this. It is incorrect therefore to take a position on this subject based on the assumption that this one day, in a cycle of sevens, was always, what we now know as Saturday. Furthermore, no one, using a cycle of sevens, can trace our current Saturday back to that first Sabbath in Genesis. The only solid evidence available for which day it applies to in the current New Covenant era is Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2, 9; Luke 24:1; John 20:1, 19; Acts 20:7 & 1 Cor. 16:2. And these, in a context repeated as "the first day of the week (Sabbatons)" identify what was later named "Sunday" as applicable to the fourth commandment. You will notice that "day" in this text is in italics. The translators did this to tell us that it was not in the original text. What these references say is that the day referred to therein is, the first of the Sabbaths. The previous day also was a Sabbath, but inferior to the first of Sabbaths, the day the tomb was found empty. This obviously, is one day in a cycle of sevens, and can be traced, in a cycle of sevens, back to that day when the tomb was found empty.

 

[lookuptoseeJesus]

Ask any catholic priest when sunday is
then subtract 1.

Ask any Jew when the Sabbath is.
nothing has changed.

 

[Hizikyah]

john832, as a supporter of the historical Sunday position I would like to remind everyone that neither "Saturday" nor "Sunday" are in the text of the fourth commandment. Days of the week were not known by names during the Bible narrative. This is assumed only, by those who take a Saturday position. The time referred to in the fourth commandment is one day in a cycle of sevens. It says no more than this. It is incorrect therefore to take a position on this subject based on the assumption that this one day, in a cycle of sevens, was always, what we now know as Saturday. Furthermore, no one, using a cycle of sevens, can trace our current Saturday back to that first Sabbath in Genesis. The only solid evidence available for which day it applies to in the current New Covenant era is Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2, 9; Luke 24:1; John 20:1, 19; Acts 20:7 & 1 Cor. 16:2. And these, in a context repeated as "the first day of the week (Sabbatons)" identify what was later named "Sunday" as applicable to the fourth commandment. You will notice that "day" in this text is in italics. The translators did this to tell us that it was not in the original text. What these references say is that the day referred to therein is, the first of the Sabbaths. The previous day also was a Sabbath, but inferior to the first of Sabbaths, the day the tomb was found empty. This obviously, is one day in a cycle of sevens, and can be traced, in a cycle of sevens, back to that day when the tomb was found empty.

In Israyl they had

1st from the Sabbath, 2nd from the Sabbath, 3rd from the Sabbath, 4th from the Sabbath, 5th from the Sabbath, 6th from the Sabbath and Sabbath.

The 7 day cycle has not been broken since the time Messiah was in the flesh, if He did not see fit to change it I see no reason to change it.

 

[Nick01]

In my opinion, the point of Daniel 7 is its listing pagan empires that ruled over Israel at various times, with the particular characteristics given in each. The last beast is most likely a reference to Rome, but it's far from clear. The only connection to Revelation is that it the Revelation 13 beast from the sea is a rolled up version of the creatures listed in Daniel 7, with the same number of horns, but no other matching characteristics. There's no clear reference to antichrist in either Revelation 13 or Daniel 7, and in fact because of the fact that it's an amalgamation of images in Daniel 7, it seems unlikely in the extreme that any of the creatures in Daniel 7 are meant to be directly analogous to the beast in Revelation 13. In any case, Daniel 7 is primarily concerned with the forced pagan practices put on Israel during such exile pre-Christ. So it's in the context of Israelite covenant law-keeping, pagan rule, and a pre-Messianic rule.

 

[SparkleEyes]

It doesn't really matter which day of the week the Sabbath is. Just honor God in all that you do on all days of the week. Rest when you need to, pray when you need to, worship when you need to....

 

[Hizikyah]

In my opinion, the point of Daniel 7 is its listing pagan empires that ruled over Israel at various times, with the particular characteristics given in each. The last beast is most likely a reference to Rome, but it's far from clear. The only connection to Revelation is that it the Revelation 13 beast from the sea is a rolled up version of the creatures listed in Daniel 7, with the same number of horns, but no other matching characteristics. There's no clear reference to antichrist in either Revelation 13 or Daniel 7, and in fact because of the fact that it's an amalgamation of images in Daniel 7, it seems unlikely in the extreme that any of the creatures in Daniel 7 are meant to be directly analogous to the beast in Revelation 13. In any case, Daniel 7 is primarily concerned with the forced pagan practices put on Israel during such exile pre-Christ. So it's in the context of Israelite covenant law-keeping, pagan rule, and a pre-Messianic rule.

Great points my friend, we agree on much concerning this and thank you for the reply, but the OP was directed specifically at Daniyl 7:25.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/84148-please-answer-sabbath-question.html

Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time"

 

[Hizikyah]

It doesn't really matter which day of the week the Sabbath is. Just honor God in all that you do on all days of the week. Rest when you need to, pray when you need to, worship when you need to....

The Creator of the heavens and the earth says different:

Hebrews 4:4, "4 For He spoke in a certain place of the Seventh Day, in this way: And Yahweh rested the Seventh Day from all His works."

Exodus 20:8-10, "Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, But the Seventh Day is the Sabbath of Yahweh your Heavenly Father. In it you shall do no work..."

Man may say different but Yahweh never said different.

 

[dcontroversal]

Times is plural and I believe to properly interpret the verse you must understand it as plural. The word itself can be applied unto any number of (things) that will be changed by the (man of sin) I.E. the Lawless one. (He will plan to alter the seasons and the law) is the way the Tanach translates it. Again, we must understand this in light of the timing of the verse (I.E. the end of the age)

I will consent that it could apply to the Sabbath and the possibility that he will demand a different day to be set aside and or declare a universal day of worship such as the picture of the O.T. presents in the Image built for Nebuchadnezzar which came with a demand to worship at particular times that had been set.

 

[Nick01]

Great points my friend, we agree on much concerning this and thank you for the reply, but the OP was directed specifically at Daniyl 7:25.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/84148-please-answer-sabbath-question.html

Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time"

Yep, as I said, it's referring to specific practices under pagan overlords who made the Israel of the OT worship different Gods with different laws and different religious festivals, etc. Historically, this happened under several different Empires post-David, from the Babylonians to the Romans.

 

[Hizikyah]

Times is plural and I believe to properly interpret the verse you must understand it as plural. The word itself can be applied unto any number of (things) that will be changed by the (man of sin) I.E. the Lawless one. (He will plan to alter the seasons and the law) is the way the Tanach translates it. Again, we must understand this in light of the timing of the verse (I.E. the end of the age)

I will consent that it could apply to the Sabbath and the possibility that he will demand a different day to be set aside and or declare a universal day of worship such as the picture of the O.T. presents in the Image built for Nebuchadnezzar which came with a demand to worship at particular times that had been set.

Is this spirit not already in effect? (certianly it has not come to its fulness)

“Sunday is our mark or authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

Exodus 31:13, "Speak also to the children of Israyl, saying; Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for they are a *sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am Yahweh
Who sanctifies you, and makes you holy."

*sign=Word #226, Hebrew Dictionary,Strong's Exhaustive Concordance,
meaning mark, token, sign, consent, flag, evidence of consent.

“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act...And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.” H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons

Ezekiyl 20:12, "Moreover, I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am Yahweh Who sanctifies them."

“Protestants...accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change...But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that...In observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope.” Our Sunday Visitor, February 15, 1950.

Council of Laodicea (4th Century) Canon 29

"Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ."

 

[Hizikyah]

Yep, as I said, it's referring to specific practices under pagan overlords who made the Israel of the OT worship different Gods with different laws and different religious festivals, etc. Historically, this happened under several different Empires post-David, from the Babylonians to the Romans.

Ishtar aka Easter replaced Passover by the decree of Constantine.

 

[38miles]

It doesn't really matter which day of the week the Sabbath is. Just honor God in all that you do on all days of the week. Rest when you need to, pray when you need to, worship when you need to....

John 4:23, beautiful.

 

[Hizikyah]

Proverbs 14:12, "There is a way which seems right to a man, but the ends thereof are the ways of death."

Yahchanan 4:24, "Yahweh is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth."

 

[posthuman]

Proverbs 14:12, "There is a way which seems right to a man, but the ends thereof are the ways of death."

Yahchanan 4:24, "Yahweh is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth."

All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
(Proverbs 16:2)

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.
To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
(Proverbs 21:2-3)

 

[posthuman]

why did the early church meet together on the first day of the week?

because many of them were Jews, and still kept the sabbath on the day previous. it therefor did not conflict with the habits of believing Jews, and it commemorated the day of the resurrection. it was not a "replacement sabbath."

did the gentile believers keep the sabbath too? maybe some did, maybe not. certainly they were not commanded to.

was the sabbath a day of meeting and worship? no, it was a day of rest and devotion.

why in the USA do we have a 2-day weekend (saturday, traditionally held as the sabbath, and sunday, the Christian's day of worship and congregation)?

i infer that this thread is here to present Daniel 7:25 as evidence that the Catholic church - or some certain pope - is the antichrist. maybe it would be simpler for the cause of your argument if we make clear that the early church never considered their meeting as 'honoring the sabbath' -- rather, that it honored the Lord of the sabbath, and that the typical American work week honors both the sabbath (saturday is your day off) and the meeting together of believers for worship (sunday is also your day off).

are you advocating that American Christians should go to their place of employment also on sundays, and forsake sunday worship meetings? is it ironic that the largest organized Church body in the USA that regularly holds services on saturday is, in fact, the Catholic Church? haha, well, i sure think it is.

i don't know what the prophet makes reference to here. if it is, as you seem to say, that the Man of Sin will change (or has changed) the sabbath from saturday to sunday, then i am taken by surprise, because i do not know anyone who is not completely ignorant of the subject who thinks that Christians meet (by traveling more than a mile, by a great majority) on sunday in order to observe the sabbath.

 

[Nick01]

Ishtar aka Easter replaced Passover by the decree of Constantine.

Look, people bring this up, but I don't think it's true. The word easter, if it has to do with any pagan word, probably has to do with a Germanic pagan goddess, rather than Ishtar, given the only languages that have a word for Easter that is anything remotely like Easter are English and German. Every other language, including Greek and all the Romance languages, have something derived from the Hebrew for Passover (eg, Pascha, etc).

As for Constantine, yes, he did himself favour celebrating the Sunday of the resurrection, as opposed to following the Jewish calendar. However, a couple of things to note:

1. PArt of the reason for this change was that the Passover moved, and followed a lunar calendar rather than a solar calendar. This is why the date of passover moves, and the idea was partially because people thought that the resurrection of the Lord (Pascha) should be celebrate at the same time (in relation to the sun) every year on a Sunday.
2. Constantine did not unilaterally ratify anything - it was decided upon in the Council of Nicea.
3. It's not at all clear that it was 'replaced' or 'outlawed' - rather, from reading Eusebius, it seems the focus was more on which day to break the fast. The current celebration of Good Friday may actually have come later, as the lunar and solar calendars shifted more out of alignment. Not sure, those, as the whole discussion seems a little arcane.

In any case, it's hard to compare the post-Christ period with the particular Jewish covenantal relationship with the post-Christ period, particularly in regards to the Gentile ekklesia. One has the Messiah, the other is still waiting, and only has types.

 

[RedTent]

It could be that the Lord blesses those who watch the clock and the days to worship.

In genesis it talks of the first, second, third, etc. day and then the Sabbath, and we are to be able to relate our 2014 names for those days to how scripture named them.

There is also a mention of designating time in scripture. All through scripture it talks of the third, sixth, and ninth hour as a special time for prayer. That is understood to be 9:00 AM, Noon, and 3:00 PM. In Acts 2:15, the Holy Spirit was given at the third hour, In Acts 10:9 Peter prayed at the 6th hour, and in Acts 10:1 to 3 God sent an angel on the ninth hour. In Acts it also mentions others praying at times for prayer.

Scripture says that Christ was crucified on the third hour, Darkness came on the land at the sixth hour, and the darkness lasted until the ninth hour.

Daniel had special times to pray, and it was three times each day.

The only scripture about using the first day of the week that I know of is to report a meeting on that day. When there is mention of worship, or going to synagogue, it is always on Sabbath that history tells us was Saturday. The only way Sunday is tied to scripture is not from what scripture says but men deciding to tie it into the day it was discovered that Christ had risen. I don't think scripture tells us Christ rose on Sunday, just that the day it was discovered was on Sunday. The only other mention doesn't speak about a day to worship, but to warn us not to judge by the day a person chooses.

 

[Bookends]

Why should I explain myself? You're not going to have an open mind hearing my explanation.

 

[SparkleEyes]

The Creator of the heavens and the earth says different:

Hebrews 4:4, "4 For He spoke in a certain place of the Seventh Day, in this way: And Yahweh rested the Seventh Day from all His works."

Exodus 20:8-10, "Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, But the Seventh Day is the Sabbath of Yahweh your Heavenly Father. In it you shall do no work..."

Man may say different but Yahweh never said different.

Sigh.......