Please Answer Sabbath Question

[RedTent]

=Nick01;1386082]Look, people bring this up, but I don't think it's true. The word easter, if it has to do with any pagan word, probably has to do with a Germanic pagan goddess, rather than Ishtar, given the only languages that have a word for Easter that is anything remotely like Easter are English and German. Every other language, including Greek and all the Romance languages, have something derived from the Hebrew for Passover (eg, Pascha, etc).

Easter is an ancient holiday welcoming spring. It is a new beginning. We still have eggs, bunnies, Easter baskets to celebrate the day. I don't think the Romans knew the German language at all, but their pronunciation of Ishtar sounds like Easter.

1. PArt of the reason for this change was that the Passover moved, and followed a lunar calendar rather than a solar calendar. This is why the date of passover moves, and the idea was partially because people thought that the resurrection of the Lord (Pascha) should be celebrate at the same time (in relation to the sun) every year on a Sunday.
2. Constantine did not unilaterally ratify anything - it was decided upon in the Council of Nicea.
3. It's not at all clear that it was 'replaced' or 'outlawed' - rather, from reading Eusebius, it seems the focus was more on which day to break the fast. The current celebration of Good Friday may actually have come later, as the lunar and solar calendars shifted more out of alignment. Not sure, those, as the whole discussion seems a little arcane.

Constantine was a clever Politian not interested in religion, he made a big show of letting the Christians decide Christian policy at Nicea. However, he paid all the three years of expenses of all the people there, and he made it clear that there were two goals the conference was to accomplish. The main goal was to unify Christianity and clear up all the different ideas of what it stood for by different groups. Nothing was to divide it, so every way Jews used in worship must go. Changing from a lunar to solar calendar was an aftermath of the decision to get rid of the Jewish way to celebrate Christ as our freedom from sin with God freeing Hebrews from slavery.

Eusebius is a valuable source for history, but he did not report to tell the truth but to build up Constantine's reputation.

 

[Historicist]

In Israyl they had

1st from the Sabbath, 2nd from the Sabbath, 3rd from the Sabbath, 4th from the Sabbath, 5th from the Sabbath, 6th from the Sabbath and Sabbath.

The 7 day cycle has not been broken since the time Messiah was in the flesh, if He did not see fit to change it I see no reason to change it.

Hizikyah, your response is very dogmatic, does not refute the points I made.

 

[dcontroversal]

Is this spirit not already in effect? (certianly it has not come to its fulness)

“Sunday is our mark or authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

Exodus 31:13, "Speak also to the children of Israyl, saying; Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for they are a *sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am Yahweh
Who sanctifies you, and makes you holy."

*sign=Word #226, Hebrew Dictionary,Strong's Exhaustive Concordance,
meaning mark, token, sign, consent, flag, evidence of consent.

“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act...And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.” H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons

Ezekiyl 20:12, "Moreover, I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am Yahweh Who sanctifies them."

“Protestants...accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change...But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that...In observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope.” Our Sunday Visitor, February 15, 1950.

Council of Laodicea (4th Century) Canon 29

"Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ."

First, yes the spirit of disobedience is working overtime to corrupt all biblical practices.
Second, I am not Catholic
Third, I am not a Protestant

Without a doubt, these corruptions of holy days, biblical practices, feasts etc. have been slowly corrupted and that corruption will come to fruition under the small horn, beast, government of the beast which comes at the end of the age. No matter how many points we want to prove, we cannot ever ignore context and timing of a particular verse or set of verses in order to make a stand on what we believe and or prove a said point.

Having said that, I am sure there is more to glean and learn about the topic at hand which will give us both a greater understanding about the topic at hand. That is why it is a little here, and little there, precept upon precept brother.

 

[Historicist]

Ask any catholic priest when sunday is
then subtract 1.

Ask any Jew when the Sabbath is.
nothing has changed.

lookuptoseeJesus, the Popes did not change that which the Bible writers call "the first day of the week (sabbatons)."

Neither does Saturday, because it is observed by those who reject the New Covenant, make it the New Covenant Sabbath.

 

[Nick01]

Easter is an ancient holiday welcoming spring. It is a new beginning. We still have eggs, bunnies, Easter baskets to celebrate the day. I don't think the Romans knew the German language at all, but their pronunciation of Ishtar sounds like Easter.

But that's my point. The word Easter would have been completely foreign to Constantine and his contemporaries. The word they used was Pasca (derived from the Greek Πάσχα, from the Hebrew פֶּסַח). The English word comes from a different root (that doesn't come from Ishtar anyway, unless you're proposing that Saxon languages are meaningfully descended from the completely different Assyrian language), and is irrelevant to the origins of the celebration amongst the Christian institutions. As I said, many pagan symbols and stuff became entwined with Easter (mostly as pagan countries became Christianised, and people held onto their old customs), but again, is irrelevant to origins. Whether the word sound similar is about as useful as saying that the words bow and bough must mean the same thing because they sound the same.

Constantine was a clever Politian not interested in religion, he made a big show of letting the Christians decide Christian policy at Nicea. However, he paid all the three years of expenses of all the people there, and he made it clear that there were two goals the conference was to accomplish. The main goal was to unify Christianity and clear up all the different ideas of what it stood for by different groups. Nothing was to divide it, so every way Jews used in worship must go. Changing from a lunar to solar calendar was an aftermath of the decision to get rid of the Jewish way to celebrate Christ as our freedom from sin with God freeing Hebrews from slavery.

Let's not over simplify things. Most of what you said above is true, at least partially, but you have to remember that much of this was still in the context of judaizing tendencies within the Jewish church, so much of what was decided at Nicea was at least in part a reaction to elements within Judaism (which from a reading of Eusebius seems to be distinct from Jews who were acknowledged Messiah as Lord) who were trying to enforce Jewish norms on the Gentile church. That doesn't make everything he did right (and I disagree with the extent to which the church pushed many of these elements - there's nothing inherently wrong with celebrating the passover), but it puts it in a context in which there were genuine attempts by both sides to enforce certain views on the other which were not, in themselves, necessary.

As for the lunar/solar calendar thing, Roman civilisation had already used a solar calendar for at least centuries before Constantine, synchronised to the sun and mostly approximate to our current calendar. It's a minor issue, anyway, because it basically stems from what I mentioned above - both sides attempting to tell the other why their measurement of time was the necessary for the observance of feasts, which I'm sure had Paul, for one, rolling in his grave!

Eusebius is a valuable source for history, but he did not report to tell the truth but to build up Constantine's reputation.

Sure. But I don't see how that has a bearing on what we're talking about. I'm not sure Eusebius would have any reason to hold back the fact that Constantine had outlawed sabbath observance, if he indeed had. Again, it was a period of much conflict between Judaism and Christianity.

I also realise this is all only marginally on topic, so I'll finish this post by simply saying that whatever you think of the Constantinian era, it's largely irrelevant to the question of what it means for us today, in terms of observances of ritual times and days, etc.

 

[Hizikyah]

Hizikyah, your response is very dogmatic, does not refute the points I made.

I did not fully understand the point you wwere trying to make to be honest, but I did feel like you were saying we dont know an accurate 7 day cycle and the Sabbath could be any day, so I showed that we do have the 7 day cycle intact from the time of Messiah, and as I said before I trust all He said and did, so if He thought He knew the correct day of Sabbath I trust Him. Again I didnt reply to much else because I was unsure of the points you were trying to make.

 

[Hizikyah]

The thing about Easter and Ishtar, its not a stretch, they are both celebrated with eggs and bunnies.

Astarte, , Ashtoreth, Ishtar,, Eostre and Easter are all celebrated with eggs and bunnies.

 

[Karraster]

The thing about Easter and Ishtar, its not a stretch, they are both celebrated with eggs and bunnies.

Astarte, , Ashtoreth, Ishtar,, Eostre and Easter are all celebrated with eggs and bunnies.

These pagan holy days that worship the beast (even though people are not informed about that, not sayin they do it on purpose) can be easily researched. When these celebration days are traced back to their roots it will sicken the average person as to how disgusting they really are. And remembering those pagan feasts is still disgusting to our Maker, He don't change His mind on what an abomination is.
The Feasts of Yahaveh are considered not important by many, not realizing they are appointments with our Maker, and a shadows of things to come. Things to come, meaning future events. Messiah will return one day soon, and if the Spring Feasts being fulfilled perfectly by His first coming, it's promised and logical to think He will return during the Fall Feasts. that's a secret though, (the devil don't want you to know, he wants you celebrating his holy days)

We've inherited so many lies! It's time to wake up! The Messiah will return, and that day is drawing near!

 

[dcontroversal]

The thing about Easter and Ishtar, its not a stretch, they are both celebrated with eggs and bunnies.

Astarte, , Ashtoreth, Ishtar,, Eostre and Easter are all celebrated with eggs and bunnies.

Don't forget ISIS and LIBERTAS (LIBERTY)...some other names of Ishtar and Astarte

 

[Hizikyah]

These pagan holy days that worship the beast (even though people are not informed about that, not sayin they do it on purpose) can be easily researched. When these celebration days are traced back to their roots it will sicken the average person as to how disgusting they really are. And remembering those pagan feasts is still disgusting to our Maker, He don't change His mind on what an abomination is.
The Feasts of Yahaveh are considered not important by many, not realizing they are appointments with our Maker, and a shadows of things to come. Things to come, meaning future events. Messiah will return one day soon, and if the Spring Feasts being fulfilled perfectly by His first coming, it's promised and logical to think He will return during the Fall Feasts. that's a secret though, (the devil don't want you to know, he wants you celebrating his holy days)

We've inherited so many lies! It's time to wake up! The Messiah will return, and that day is drawing near!

Deuteronomy 12:29-31, “When Yahweh your Father cuts off the nations from in front of you, and you displace them and live in their land, Be careful not to be ensnared into following them by asking about their gods, saying: How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do the same. You must not worship Yahweh your Father in their way, for every abomination to Yahweh, which He hates, they have done to their gods..."

It is very sad that most do not care what the Father says or wants.

 

[dcontroversal]

These pagan holy days that worship the beast (even though people are not informed about that, not sayin they do it on purpose) can be easily researched. When these celebration days are traced back to their roots it will sicken the average person as to how disgusting they really are. And remembering those pagan feasts is still disgusting to our Maker, He don't change His mind on what an abomination is.
The Feasts of Yahaveh are considered not important by many, not realizing they are appointments with our Maker, and a shadows of things to come. Things to come, meaning future events. Messiah will return one day soon, and if the Spring Feasts being fulfilled perfectly by His first coming, it's promised and logical to think He will return during the Fall Feasts. that's a secret though, (the devil don't want you to know, he wants you celebrating his holy days)

We've inherited so many lies! It's time to wake up! The Messiah will return, and that day is drawing near!

I can't stand any of the pagan, satanic, Christianized holy-days that have been crammed down the throats of humanity by ignorant men who have not studied the origin of these wicked days that God takes no pleasure in. I HATE ALL OF THEM

 

[Hizikyah]

I can't stand any of the pagan, satanic, Christianized holy-days that have been crammed down the throats of humanity by ignorant men who have not studied the origin of these wicked days that God takes no pleasure in. I HATE ALL OF THEM

You and Yahweh have that in common! praise and glory to Yahweh for He guides His people!

 

[Karraster]

Deuteronomy 12:29-31, “When Yahweh your Father cuts off the nations from in front of you, and you displace them and live in their land, Be careful not to be ensnared into following them by asking about their gods, saying: How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do the same. You must not worship Yahweh your Father in their way, for every abomination to Yahweh, which He hates, they have done to their gods..."

It is very sad that most do not care what the Father says or wants.

They are blinded brother Hizikyah! they have eyes that won't see and ears that won't hear. I pray for them, as I was that way too. When the Spirit starts pressing you to discover a truth, you won't find peace until you do. That's what happened to me. I used to love Christmas so much! Nobody loved it more than me. Seems with each year though, it grew more and more sad because people left Christ out of it, and acted so disgusting with the mad frenzied shopping scene, etc. Then finding out the truth, that Christ Messiah was never in Christmas to start with, that's when my blinders came off. It's impossible to worship our Heavenly Father in ways He hates! Impossible.

Imagine if your spouse had left you and moved in with their lover. That new lover showed your spouse all kinds on new and exciting things to do. New restaurants, vacation hideaways, a new circle of friends to hang out with. After some time passed they came back, you forgave them and welcomed them with open arms. Then they wanted to show you all the new restaurants, vacation spots, and new friends met through their adulterous affair. Could you ever..go..and be ok with that!!!

 

[Nick01]

The thing about Easter and Ishtar, its not a stretch, they are both celebrated with eggs and bunnies.

Astarte, , Ashtoreth, Ishtar,, Eostre and Easter are all celebrated with eggs and bunnies.

For a start, Astartre, Ashtoreth, and Ishtar are all the same person, just pronounced in different Near-Eastern dialects.

Ishtar has no known association with eggs or rabbits before this century, as far as I've been able to see. Still trying to track down actual sources, so let me know if you know of any.

Eostre is a different matter, but having read into it a little more, it actually seems that Eostre herself is only attested to in the 8th century by the monk Bede (of St Bede's fame), who was writing about Eostre in relation to a Germanic name for the month in which the Pascal month (Easter) fell.

There's no prior mention of Eostre in ANY source before Bede, and all later references to her by name refer go there via Bede's reference. So no one's actually sure if there was ever a goddess worshipped by the name Eostre, and if there was, there seems to be no link to eggs rabbits until at least the 17th century. (mostly sourcing through Wikipedia, though if anyone finds a separate source with some primary material to follow up, link me in.)

And, again, if we assume Eostre was a thing, the only link between the Eostre and Ishtar is that they both were (in the case of Eostre, may) have been fertility goddesses. That's it. The egg and rabbitt stuff doesn't seem to find a lot of explicit pagan mythological connections either that I can see until you get to 20th century Wiccan stuff (which they may have grabbed on to because of everyone complaining they were pagan!). Undoubtedly, though, there's folk tradition worked in with that stuff. I'm just not sure how much of it has to do with the veneration of particular pagan gods or goddesses.

In any case, at the end of the day, if you don't like the eggs and stuff, you don't need them. You can make it a day about the Lord without any of that stuff, and the rest of society will do what it will do.

 

[Hizikyah]

"The term 'Easter' is not of Christian origin. It is another form of Astarte, one of the titles of the Chaldean goddess, the queen of heaven. The festival of Pasch [Passover and the Feast of Unleavens] was a continuation of the Jewish [that is, God's] feast....from this Pasch the pagan festival of 'Easter' was quite distinct and was introduced into the apostate Western religion, as part of the attempt to adapt pagan festivals to Christianity." (W.E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White, Jr., Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, article: Easter, p.192)

 

[Nick01]

^ Where is that information coming from? Who is Vine? Who is Hislop? Do either of them have access to writings or pictures contemporary to the things they claim to be writing about? What are their sources for Babylonian myths, or the goddess Eostre (or

Even then, the most basic details of what they right about are demonstrably false. For instance, Isis and Osiris were not mother and son but husband and wife (and also brother and sister). Iswara is not even a theistic God and has no person worth speaking of, while Fortuna was actually the daughter of Zeus (as most Roman gods were), not the other way around. Who the heck is Jupiter-puer, anyway?

Show me a source that is older than the 19th century (because that's how old at least one of those writers is), from either of them, and then we can have a discussion.

 

[Hizikyah]

^ Where is that information coming from? Who is Vine? Who is Hislop? Do either of them have access to writings or pictures contemporary to the things they claim to be writing about? What are their sources for Babylonian myths, or the goddess Eostre (or

Even then, the most basic details of what they right about are demonstrably false. For instance, Isis and Osiris were not mother and son but husband and wife (and also brother and sister). Iswara is not even a theistic God and has no person worth speaking of, while Fortuna was actually the daughter of Zeus (as most Roman gods were), not the other way around. Who the heck is Jupiter-puer, anyway?

Show me a source that is older than the 19th century (because that's how old at least one of those writers is), from either of them, and then we can have a discussion.

I have hard copies of everything I quoted except Compton's Encyclopedia. Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words is a mainline resource:
Christianbook.com: Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: W.E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White Jr.: 9780785211600

And I just re-read the Easter entry to re-confirm, yes it says exactly that.

""The term 'Easter' is not of Christian origin. It is another form of Astarte, one of the titles of the Chaldean goddess, the queen of heaven. The festival of Pasch [Passover and the Feast of Unleavens] was a continuation of the Jewish [that is, God's] feast....from this Pasch the pagan festival of 'Easter' was quite distinct and was introduced into the apostate Western religion, as part of the attempt to adapt pagan festivals to Christianity." (W.E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White, Jr., Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, article: Easter, p.192) "

Also the Mother husband/son thing is common, it is from Babylon, Nimrod got killed and his wife claimed the SUN impregnated her and it was her husband re-incarnated, she named him Tammuz, Tammuz worship is condemned in Scripture, also this Babylonian foolery is common knowledge.

All the info is there, I could quote every source I know, but if someone dosent want to believe it they wont.

 

[Nick01]

I have hard copies of everything I quoted except Compton's Encyclopedia. Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words is a mainline resource:
Christianbook.com: Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: W.E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White Jr.: 9780785211600

And I just re-read the Easter entry to re-confirm, yes it says exactly that.

""The term 'Easter' is not of Christian origin. It is another form of Astarte, one of the titles of the Chaldean goddess, the queen of heaven. The festival of Pasch [Passover and the Feast of Unleavens] was a continuation of the Jewish [that is, God's] feast....from this Pasch the pagan festival of 'Easter' was quite distinct and was introduced into the apostate Western religion, as part of the attempt to adapt pagan festivals to Christianity." (W.E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White, Jr., Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, article: Easter, p.192) "

Also the Mother husband/son thing is common, it is from Babylon, Nimrod got killed and his wife claimed the SUN impregnated her and it was her husband re-incarnated, she named him Tammuz, Tammuz worship is condemned in Scripture, also this Babylonian foolery is common knowledge.

All the info is there, I could quote every source I know, but if someone dosent want to believe it they wont.

No. Books written in the 19th and 20th centuries are not reliable sources, unless they themselves refer to older sources. As far as I can tell, the author's you quote are not historians, and most importantly, they do not appear to be referring to other sources in order to prove their assertions. You telling me that you have hard copies of those books means absolutely nothing. I have a hard copy of Richard Dawkins 'The God Delusion.' Do I believe that? NO! So you have to show me why I should believe YOUR books are truthful and accurate. And 'because you agree with them' does not count as a reason.

Nimrod in the Bible is a man (great grandson of Noah, if I remember my 1 Chronicles correctly). I don't know anything about a wife, it doesn't mention it in the Bible, or clearly in any other text by name (except for the Book of Jubiless, which mentions a wife of Eber and a son named Peleg, mentioned in Genesis and 1 Chronicles). I can't find a single association of Nimrod with Tammuz outside Hislop, who is the source you cite. I'm sorry, but again, I'm not going to bank on a 19th century bloke who wrote something as a reliable source about ancient religious practices, let alone the origins of Easter, unless he himself is using an actual source.

In any case, I still have yet to see a clear link from Tammuz to Ishtar, and more importantly, a link from Ishtar to Easter, in terms of either etymology, date or content.

 

[Hizikyah]

I CIted, New Unger's Bible Dictionary, Compton's Encyclopedia, Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary, and Two Babylons by Hislop.

Toss Two Babylons by Hislop out there is still proof there, unless W.E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White Jr. have no credability?

 

[Hizikyah]

THREAD RESET

I have a question for all that say Sabbath is now for any reason not the 7th day of the week, that it should not be physically kept, or if you believe there has been any change in it in any way since Messiah kept it:

please tell me what this verse is then, because without a explanation other than what I believe I can not think Sabbath has been changed. (ps Sabbath has not been changed, but for being open I ask this)

Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time"

2166 zeman
zeman: time
Original Word: ?????
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: zeman
Phonetic Spelling: (zem-awn')
Short Definition: time

2166 zeman
Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
(Chaldee); from H2165; the same as H2165:—season, time.

2166 zeman
Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) a set time, time, season


5732 iddan - time
Original Word: ??????
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: iddan
Phonetic Spelling: (id-dawn')
Short Definition: time

5732 iddan
Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
(Chaldee); from a root corresponding to that of H5708; a set time; technically a year:—time.

5732 iddan
Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) time
1a) time (of duration)
1b) year

Daniyl 7 is written in Aramaic, yet "zeman" is the Aramaic parallel of "moed", showing this for understand, and 7th day Sabbath is listed in Leviticus 23.

Leviticus 23:2, "Speak to the children of Israel, and tell them, 'The set feasts of Yahweh, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my set feasts.""

4150. moed - appointed time, place, or meeting
Original Word: ??????
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: moed
Phonetic Spelling: (mo-ade')
Short Definition: meeting

4150. moed
Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
From H3259; properly an appointment, that is, a fixed time or season; specifically a festival; conventionally a year; by implication, an assembly (as convened for a definite purpose); technically the congregation; by extension, the place of meeting; also a signal (as appointed beforehand):—appointed (sign, time), (place of, solemn) assembly, congregation, (set, solemn) feast, (appointed, due) season, solemn (-ity), synagogue, (set) time (appointed).

4150. moed
Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) appointed place, appointed time, meeting
1a) appointed time
1a1) appointed time (general)
1a2) sacred season, set feast, appointed season
1b) appointed meeting
1c) appointed place
1d) appointed sign or signal
1e) tent of meeting

2166 zeman is a Aramaic word, Daniyl 2:38 to 7 is written is Aramaic.

4150. moed is a Hebrew word and is the equivalent.