There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

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Apr 24, 2012
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Three persons; One Being.

Just as scripture mandates.
Except for Matthew 3:16-17, that scripture mandates 3 persons in 3 beings.
Except for Mark 9:7, this scripture mandates 3 persons in 3 beings.
Except for Acts 7:56, this scripture mandates 3 persons in 3 beings.
Except for Revelations chapter 5, this scripture mandates 3 persons in 3 beings.
Except for John 17:20-22 this scripture mandates 3 persons in 3 beings.
Except the 2 Lords scriptures in the OT, these scriptures mandate 3 person in 3 beings.
Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc...........Etc.
 
M

mudspek

Guest
Three persons; One Being.

Just as scripture mandates.
Then why did God tell Moses "I am the being" using singular grammar? "1st person singular" is telling us how many persons are in this "Being" of whom God says "I am."

Exo 3:14 "egw eimi 'o wn"
"I am the being" uses only singular word-forms, so where do you find room for a plurality of persons in one being?
 
Nov 19, 2012
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Then why did God tell Moses "I am the being" using singular grammar? "1st person singular" is telling us how many persons are in this "Being" of whom God says "I am."

Exo 3:14 "egw eimi 'o wn"
"I am the being" uses only singular word-forms, so where do you find room for a plurality of persons in one being?

Why is 'I AM' repeated three times in that verse...?
 
Nov 19, 2012
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Except for Matthew 3:16-17, that scripture mandates 3 persons in 3 beings.
Except for Mark 9:7, this scripture mandates 3 persons in 3 beings.
Except for Acts 7:56, this scripture mandates 3 persons in 3 beings.
Except for Revelations chapter 5, this scripture mandates 3 persons in 3 beings.
Except for John 17:20-22 this scripture mandates 3 persons in 3 beings.
Except the 2 Lords scriptures in the OT, these scriptures mandate 3 person in 3 beings.
Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc...........Etc.

Exegete each one of your examples, separately...
 
Nov 19, 2012
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Re: Jesus is God.

Are they different in any other way, except that they are not each other? (A clever side-step) For instance does God the Father have a body of flesh and bone? Because Jesus has a body of flesh and bone ever since he was begotten in the flesh by his Father, God.

You cannot see God The Father and physically live.

Many people saw God The Son, and God The Spirit and lived to tell about it.
 
Apr 24, 2012
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There's just one God.. The trinity or tri-unity just describes the 3 attributes of a single Godhead, the 3 work and have always existed as one entity.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". Here, Elohiym is the plural form of God. Therefore, as scripture was inspired and man began to write the Word, it was evident to the writers that God was made of more than 1 Person but at the same time there was one Godhead.


The Father is the unseen, omnipresent Source of all being, revealed in and by the Son, experienced in and by the Holy Spirit. The Son proceeds from the Father, and the Spirit from the Son. With reference to God's creation, the Father is the Thought behind it, the Son is the Word calling it forth, and the Spirit is the Deed making it a reality.


Just as a person thinks, speaks, and acts, God is all knowledge, Christ is the expression and manifestation, and the Spirit is the action and deed. The 3 are united persona's of one entity that best describe the Godhead.
You did a very good job of explaining the Trinity, I am impressed with the choice and the organization of your words. Of course I will disagree with some of your thoughts, but very well done.


Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". Here, Elohiym is the plural form of God. Therefore, as scripture was inspired and man began to write the Word, it was evident to the writers that God was made of more than 1 Person but at the same time there was one Godhead.
Elohim is truly the plural form of God. If the translators had translated it correctly they would have translated Elohim as "Gods". We know there was more than 1 God involved in the creation, as you stated, except you called them Persons. The term "let us" or "one of us" clearly confirms more than 1 something.

The Jews trying to get around the plural, say God was talking to angels helping in the creation. Christians say that the plural clearly demonstrates that the 3 in 1 Trinity was in existence at the beginning. The Jews counter by saying that God would have had to be talking to himself if there was a 3 in 1 relationship. The Christians, which I am, and in my opinion
are the closest to being correct. But the term "let us" confirms more than 1, but does not confirm the exact number nor does it confirm a 3 in 1 nature. You have to interpret the Bible verses in Genesis the way you see it because it is not given straight out.

I, as many Christians, choose to interpret the scriptures in Genesis a little differently. I look at the Hebrew word Elohim and think it means exactly what Moses meant it to. A plurality of Gods. As far as I know, only 3 are given in the scriptures God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. All were at the creation and all participated in the creation. But rather than being 3 Persons in 1 Being, I believe they are 3 Gods in 3 Beings all with the same mind, will, purpose, and actions working in perfect harmony as if they are 1 God. It is this perfect harmony of "mind,will, purpose, and actions" reality that causes OT prophets to proclaim that there is only 1 God. I know the use of the word "Gods" is blasphemous to many, but you have to realize that the Elohim are God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Besides substituting the word "Persons" for "Gods" does not fool anybody.

I wish we did not have to interpret scripture, but unfortunately we do. And that is why we have hundreds of different Christian churches, because we all interpret the scriptures a little differently.

The Father is the unseen, omnipresent Source of all being, revealed in and by the Son, experienced in and by the Holy Spirit. The Son proceeds from the Father, and the Spirit from the Son. With reference to God's creation, the Father is the Thought behind it, the Son is the Word calling it forth, and the Spirit is the Deed making it a reality.
Agree with most of this except I feel like the Son had more of making it happen and forming the creation. I do not know what you mean by "Deed". I would have put the "making it a reality" on the shoulder of the Son.


Just as a person thinks, speaks, and acts, God is all knowledge, Christ is the expression and manifestation, and the Spirit is the action and deed. The 3 are united persona's of one entity that best describe the Godhead.
[/QUOTE]

I believe that the best and most straight-forward description of the Godhead is found in Acts 7:56 it says, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man (Jesus) standing on the right hand of God. This is the story of the first martyrdom of a Christian. Stephen is testifying to the Jews, who are about kill him that he sees Jesus standing next to God in the heavens. The Jews could not stand the idea of 2 Gods being seen by Stephen standing side by side and so they covered their ears and rushed upon him and stoned him to death. All 3 of the Godhead are present God the Son standing separate from His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost is in Stephen so he can see this marvelous sight and testify.
 
Apr 24, 2012
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You did a very good job of explaining the Trinity, I am impressed with the choice and the organization of your words. Of course I will disagree with some of your thoughts, but very well done.




Elohim is truly the plural form of God. If the translators had translated it correctly they would have translated Elohim as "Gods". We know there was more than 1 God involved in the creation, as you stated, except you called them Persons. The term "let us" or "one of us" clearly confirms more than 1 something.

The Jews trying to get around the plural, say God was talking to angels helping in the creation. Christians say that the plural clearly demonstrates that the 3 in 1 Trinity was in existence at the beginning. The Jews counter by saying that God would have had to be talking to himself if there was a 3 in 1 relationship. The Christians, which I am, and in my opinion
are the closest to being correct. But the term "let us" confirms more than 1, but does not confirm the exact number nor does it confirm a 3 in 1 nature. You have to interpret the Bible verses in Genesis the way you see it because it is not given straight out.

I, as many Christians, choose to interpret the scriptures in Genesis a little differently. I look at the Hebrew word Elohim and think it means exactly what Moses meant it to. A plurality of Gods. As far as I know, only 3 are given in the scriptures God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. All were at the creation and all participated in the creation. But rather than being 3 Persons in 1 Being, I believe they are 3 Gods in 3 Beings all with the same mind, will, purpose, and actions working in perfect harmony as if they are 1 God. It is this perfect harmony of "mind,will, purpose, and actions" reality that causes OT prophets to proclaim that there is only 1 God. I know the use of the word "Gods" is blasphemous to many, but you have to realize that the Elohim are God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Besides substituting the word "Persons" for "Gods" does not fool anybody.

I wish we did not have to interpret scripture, but unfortunately we do. And that is why we have hundreds of different Christian churches, because we all interpret the scriptures a little differently.



Agree with most of this except I feel like the Son had more of making it happen and forming the creation. I do not know what you mean by "Deed". I would have put the "making it a reality" on the shoulder of the Son.
I believe that the best and most straight-forward description of the Godhead is found in Acts 7:56 it says, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man (Jesus) standing on the right hand of God. This is the story of the first martyrdom of a Christian. Stephen is testifying to the Jews, who are about kill him that he sees Jesus standing next to God in the heavens. The Jews could not stand the idea of 2 Gods being seen by Stephen standing side by side and so they covered their ears and rushed upon him and stoned him to death. All 3 of the Godhead are present God the Son standing separate from His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost is in Stephen so he can see this marvelous sight and testify.[/QUOTE]

Sorry about the mistake on the second to last line. I meant to say God the Father standing separate from His Son Jesus Christ.....
 
M

mudspek

Guest
Why is 'I AM' repeated three times in that verse...?
Because the question was asked twice, and God wanted Moses to understand so he could pass it on to Israel.

The question Moses asked God in Exo 3:13
1st question was suggested by Moses as to what Israel would be asking him because of Moses' leading Israel from Egypt; "And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name?"

2nd question is Moses asking God for an answer to the first question; "what shall I say unto them?"

1st response is from God to Moses in Exodus 3:14, explaining who He is to Moses -
"And God said unto Moses, egw eimi o` wn [I am the being] and he said,..."

2nd response is instruction for what Moses is to actually say to Israel; "Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, [o` w'n] The Being hath sent me unto you.

This is for the Gentile nations to come to Christ; the Hebrew language was for the Jews to come to Christ. Are you a Jew? If not, try understanding from the scriptures God supplied just for you and other Gentiles.

God placed his LOGION (Tr. Oracles in N.T.) oracles above his name, and said he would give Israel the oracles to hold for the Gentiles; and the Gentiles were told to "speak as the oracles of God."

GOD PLACES HIS ORACLES ABOVE HIS NAME
Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy logion (word) above all thy name.

GOD TELLS ISRAEL HOW HE JUDGES THEIR ADHERENCE TO COVENANT:
Isa 28:7-18
"But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. 8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

GOD FORETELLS OF THE SEPTUAGINT SCRIPTURES YET TO BE DEVELOPED
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

GOD SPEAKS OF HO0W HIS WORD WILL BE GIVEN AND ITS RESULT IS A TRAP FOR ISRAEL
13 But the LOGION (word) of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

GOD WARNS ISRAEL OF WHAT IS IN STORE FOR THEM
14 Wherefore hear the logos (word) of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

GOD TELLS ISRAEL THEIR COVENANT WITH DEATH WILL NOT STAND, BUT WILL WALK ALL OVER THEM
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. 18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

PAUL SPEAKS OF THE JEWS ADVANTAGE
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the logion (oracles) of God.

BABES IN CHRIST ARE TO LEARN FROM THE ORACLES OF GOD
Heb 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the LOGION (oracles) of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

MOSES WAS GIVEN ORACLES FOR ISRAEL, AND TO BE HELD IN STORE FOR LATER GENERATIONS
Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

CHRISTIANS ARE TO SPEAK AS THE ORACLES SPEAK
I Pet 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Trinity doctrine was developed by men who wanted to become important in the early church, so they used the Hebrew scriptures to develope what the Greek-speaking Gentiles could not know to question, and the Hebrew Christians lost sight of over the generations.

This is where the "I AM" quote comes from that is used to claim Jesus "quoted "I AM" to claim the divine name for himself. It is a phony argument. God did not say his name is "I AM" to the Gentiles, He siad his name is "'o wn" The Being, which Jesus did not quote in John 8:58.

And there are plenty of other arguments and scriptures that disprove trinity. Scriptures you cannot refute and arguments you cannot answer.
 
M

mudspek

Guest
Why is 'I AM' repeated three times in that verse...?
Arguments you cannot answer with trinity doctrine.

Example: John 1:1 the logos was God
Heb 1:3 Jesus is the image of God. "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person..."

Question; is being God different from being an image of God? And remember when you answer, we are also the image of God - "For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God.." [I Cor 11:7]

This demonstrates by proper exegesis, that "The Logos" and "Jesus" are not one and the same; The first was God; the second was an image thereof.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Re: Jesus is God.

Are they different in any other way, except that they are not each other? (A clever side-step) For instance does God the Father have a body of flesh and bone? Because Jesus has a body of flesh and bone ever since he was begotten in the flesh by his Father, God.
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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John 17, especially vs's 20-22 expresses the straight-forward doctrine that I, as a believer can be "one" with God, in exactly the same way that Jesus is "one" with God. In fact we can become "one with them". Any Bible student when reading that should immediately think of
John 10:30. Does this mean that I can be the 4th Person in the Trinity? Does this mean that the Trinity includes billions of believers that are "one" with God? You have to ask yourself these questions.

The answer is "OF COURSE NOT."
So what does it mean then to be "one" with God?
What does it mean for Jesus to be "one" with God?
How can there be billions of separate and distinct individuals and still be "one" with God.

The answer is Jesus and God are not 3 in 1, they are 3 in 3 acting in harmony, mind, will, purpose and action so perfectly that it is as if they are 1. That is the only way we can reconcile John 10:30 and John 17:20-22 with what it means to be "one" with God. Billions can be in harmony, mind, will, purpose and action with God so perfectly that it is as if they are 1. Just like Jesus and God are 1. Just like Paul and Apollos are 1. The scriptures all fit in a perfect mosaic of doctrine.
I am now seeing this as splitting hairs
1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1 always = one
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Except for Matthew 3:16-17, that scripture mandates 3 persons in 3 beings.
Except for Mark 9:7, this scripture mandates 3 persons in 3 beings.
Except for Acts 7:56, this scripture mandates 3 persons in 3 beings.
Except for Revelations chapter 5, this scripture mandates 3 persons in 3 beings.
Except for John 17:20-22 this scripture mandates 3 persons in 3 beings.
Except the 2 Lords scriptures in the OT, these scriptures mandate 3 person in 3 beings.
Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc...........Etc.
Yet Christ only did what Father told him and only said what Father said and then said i tis my Father that does the works not him
3 in one and one God in three
I think it matter not which way it is sliced, diced and or cubed here, God is God and just love us all
Romans 5:2 by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

I am over elated at God's Mercy for all through Son Christ and wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no matter if 3 in 3 or one in 3, God is God and just loves us. Watching out for straining out gnats that cause one or many to swallow a camel, just being careful to not allow my own flesh conceitedness in the way
 
Apr 24, 2012
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Then why did God tell Moses "I am the being" using singular grammar? "1st person singular" is telling us how many persons are in this "Being" of whom God says "I am."

Exo 3:14 "egw eimi 'o wn"
"I am the being" uses only singular word-forms, so where do you find room for a plurality of persons in one being?
Bowman and I agree there are 3 Persons in the Godhead, but he believes they are in 1 being, I believe they are in 3 beings. Exodus 3:14 is the great "I AM" scripture and because of John 8:58 where Jesus uses the name "I am" to make a point, it is usually agreed upon that Yahweh (which is the name of Jesus in the OT) is speaking to Moses from the burning bush. It is singular because only 1 member of the Godhead is speaking to Moses. The other 2 members, especially the Holy Spirit is there which allows Moses to have this encounter with Yahweh. The other member, God the Father is near also, for this is a pivitol time in the history of the world.

Yehweh is 1 of 3 beings in the Godhead and so when he spoke to Moses it would be perfectly natural for him to use
the "1st person singular."

I believe there is a plurality of beings in the Godhead, but each one is separate and distinct and so when only 1 of the beings speak, he would do so in "1st person singular."
 
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mudspek

Guest
Bowman and I agree there are 3 Persons in the Godhead, but he believes they are in 1 being, I believe they are in 3 beings.
Thank you for your input JohnLuke. May I add to your perspective without offense?

First;Hebrew language has what is known as a "plural noun form," with which you seem familiar. But a plural noun-form requires (i.e., not optional) a plural verb-form to result in a plural entity. Every time "Elohim" (plural noun-form) references Jehovah Elohim the Father, in the old testament, it always uses a singular verb-form. Look at Gen 1:1 for an example, where Elohim (plural noun-form) bara (created, singular verb-form).

In Gen 1:26 where God uses plural pronouns to say "Let us make man in our image" he is speaking to anothder who is Elohim, justifying the plural pronouns. The 8th proverb tells us of the birth of Wisdom from elohim Jehovah; and other verses tell us of Wisdom and Jehovah creating all things. Some trinitarian theologists will tell you what was wisdom in the old testament is Jesus in the new testament. But Wisdom is feminine. Jesus is Masculine. They will not deal with that little gem. Besides the fact that Paul tells us that to Christians, Jesus was made wisdom. If he was made wisdom, he could not have already been wisdom.

where Jesus uses the name "I am" to make a point, it is usually agreed upon that Yahweh (which is the name of Jesus in the OT) is speaking to Moses from the burning bush.
May I suggest without offense, that you did not get that from scripture, but from books about the scripture? Because Jesus' name in the Greek old testament would be Ieesus (Jesus). Even the Hebrew account has it as Jehoshua, not Jehovah or yahweh.

Jesus was never using "I AM" to make a point the way trinitarians claim. The claim states that Jesus quoted Exo 3:14 where God said (in the Hebrew "I AM THAT I AM"). But they never deal with the reality that Jesus did not qulte the Hebrew, but the Greek, which has Moses asking God about his name so he will know what to tell Israel when they question him about "who sent you?" So he asks "What is your name?" "What shall I say unto them?"

In verse 14, God said to Moses "I AM THE BEING" using singular grammar. The significance of "singular" is that it tells us how many persons are involved with the word under consideration. He is therefore a singular-person being.

When he said I AM THE BEING he said "egw eimi 'o wn (phonetically "ego hiemi ho hone") tell them Ho Hone sent you." So God did not tell Moses his name is "I AM" He told him his name is "Ho Hone." Jesus did not quote this in John 8:58.

It is singular because only 1 member of the Godhead is speaking to Moses
Then why does trinitarian theology insist in a plurality of persons in a singular being, if upon the use of a singular being only one person is speaking?

The other 2 members, especially the Holy Spirit is there which allows Moses to have this encounter with Yahweh. The other member, God the Father is near also, for this is a pivitol time in the history of the world.
Isaiah tells us that Jehovah God is their Father who sends HIS Holy Spirit upon people. So Jehovah God the Father is the Holy spirit, and the Father to Israel.

In this passage you have Jehovah identified as God the Father of Israel, giving His Holy spirit to Moses -
"I will mention the lovingkindnesses of Jehovah [the LORD], and the praises of Jehovah [the LORD], according to all that Jehovah [the LORD] hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so He was their Saviour.
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is He that put His Holy Spirit within him
?
12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
13 That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?
14 As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.
15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?
16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O Jehovah [LORD], art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting."[Isa 63:7-16]
Joel adds to Isaiah's concept of who Jehovah and His Spirit are; JOEL 2:28-32]
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."
And so does Luke, by assigning Joel's remarks to the event recorded in Acts 2: 61 A.D. ACTS 2:16-21
"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
And Paul picks up on the theme 50 A.D. I THES 4:8
"He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us HIS Holy Spirit."
and 54 A.D. I COR 1:10
"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God."
and 56 A.D. ROM 8:11
"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by HIS Spirit that dwelleth in you[/"
Luke again in 61 A.D. [ACTS 8:39

"And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing."
and finally John adds his understanding: 85 A.D. I JOHN 4:13
"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because HE hath given us of HIS Spirit."
Yehweh is 1 of 3 beings in the Godhead and so when he spoke to Moses it would be perfectly natural for him to use the "1st person singular."
Not if trinitarian claim of 3 persons in one being is correct. it would have to be three persons in three beings, for the singular form of "being" to be appropriate.
I believe there is a plurality of beings in the Godhead, but each one is separate and distinct and so when only 1 of the beings speak, he would do so in "1st person singular."
That goes contrary to trinity doctrine who insist which insists there are three persons in one singular being. But it will serve to deal with the issue of singular-person-beings. It just disagrees with "orthodox theology." And it is still not scriptural.
Scripture tells us God is singular, like when he created the heavens and the world. Isa 37:16 and 44:24 -
Isa 37:16 "O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God,
even thou monos (alone}, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.
Isa 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Notice that little word in red? It is Greek monos and means alone, and is explained very well by Jesus in John 16:32, where Jesus tells us, concerning this word and its use -
"Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me."
So Jesus says that when he and his Father are together, they are ouk eimi monos NOT ALONE but when they are not together, they are monos alone. Jehovah God made heaven and earth alone.
When trinitarians insist Jesus was pre-existent and made all things, and reference Col 1:16, they fail to put the scriptures in their proper historical framework. Paul wrote Colossions a while after the resurrection, and speaks only of resurrected Christ. And as the firstborn from the dead, he is the firstborn of the new creation. Paul says this, and John agrees.
Compare their use of language
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things gegonen [are become] new.
John 1:3 All things egeneto were made by him; and without him was not any thing egeneto made that gegonen was made.
The significant point here is, gegonen and egeneto are forms of the same Greek word, i.e., ginomai, which means to become; and in this context, is a reference to the old creation becoming new in Christ Jesus [see II Cor 5:17 above]
 
Apr 24, 2012
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I am now seeing this as splitting hairs
1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1 always = one
Your math is not correct, it is not a function of multiplication, it is a function of addition.
It is 1+1+1 = 3

Splitting hairs seems to mean that you don't see a lot of difference in a 3 in 1 make-up of the Godhead, and a 3 in 3 make up of the Godhead. To me it makes a difference, if it does not to you, then that's just how it's going to be. Peace to you.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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Arguments you cannot answer with trinity doctrine.

Example: John 1:1 the logos was God
Heb 1:3 Jesus is the image of God. "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person..."

Question; is being God different from being an image of God? And remember when you answer, we are also the image of God - "For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God.." [I Cor 11:7]

This demonstrates by proper exegesis, that "The Logos" and "Jesus" are not one and the same; The first was God; the second was an image thereof.

You are employing poor exegesis.

You seem to be into the study of the original languages...thus, you should already be cognizant that the Greek terms rendered as 'image' in Heb 1.3 are NOT used anywhere else in the NT.

You are attempting to reverse-translate scripture, which simply does not work.

 
Nov 19, 2012
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I believe there is a plurality of beings in the Godhead, but each one is separate and distinct and so when only 1 of the beings speak, he would do so in "1st person singular."
Jesus' baptism contradicts your theology.

3 persons; 1 Being.

 
Nov 19, 2012
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Because the question was asked twice, and God wanted Moses to understand so he could pass it on to Israel.

The question Moses asked God in Exo 3:13
1st question was suggested by Moses as to what Israel would be asking him because of Moses' leading Israel from Egypt; "And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name?"

2nd question is Moses asking God for an answer to the first question; "what shall I say unto them?"

1st response is from God to Moses in Exodus 3:14, explaining who He is to Moses -
"And God said unto Moses, egw eimi o` wn [I am the being] and he said,..."

2nd response is instruction for what Moses is to actually say to Israel; "Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, [o` w'n] The Being hath sent me unto you.

This is for the Gentile nations to come to Christ; the Hebrew language was for the Jews to come to Christ. Are you a Jew? If not, try understanding from the scriptures God supplied just for you and other Gentiles.

Is Jesus quoting God the Father in Mark 12.26?

Mark 12.26,

But concerning the dead, that they are raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, as God spoke to him at the Bush, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"?



No.

He is quoting Himself, God the Son, as thus…



Exodus 3.1 - 6

And Moses was feeding the flock of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock behind the wilderness and came to the mountain of The Gods, to Horeb. And Malek Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the middle of a thorn bush. And he looked, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, and the thorn bush was not burned up! And Moses said, I will turn aside now and see this great sight, why the thorn bush is not burned up. And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and Elohim called to him from the midst of the thorn bush, and said, Moses! Moses! And he said, Behold me. And He said, Do not come near here. Pull off your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. And He said, I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he feared to look upon The Gods.


These verses tell us plainly that Moses both saw and spoke with Malek Yahweh (i.e. God the Son) in the midst of the fire.

Observe that the Triune God occupies the Mount (Moses came to the mountain of all The Gods ‘Ha- Elohim’), as the terms Yahweh, Elohim, Malek Yahweh & Ha- Elohim (literally all The Gods!) are used interchangeably.

Who occupied the burning bush?

• Malek Yahweh
• Yahweh
• Elohim
• The Gods (Ha Elohim)








That Malek Yahweh is actually Yahweh, and that Moses spoke to Malek Yahweh, is proven in these verses, as thus…



Deut 4.15 - 19

Therefore you shall carefully watch over your souls, for you have not seen any likeness in the day Yahweh spoke to you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire, that you not deal corruptly, and make for yourselves a graven image, a likeness of any figure, the form of a male or female, the form of any animal in the earth; the form of any winged bird that flies in the heavens; the form of any creeping thing on the ground; the form of any fish in the waters under the earth; and that you not lift up your eyes towards the heavens and shall see the sun, and the heavens, and you be drawn away and worship them, and serve them; which Yahweh Elohim has allotted to all the peoples under all the heavens.





It really should not come as any surprise that Moses saw and spoke to The Son, as the NT also records that Abraham did likewise…


John 8.56 – 58

Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced.Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham?Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!
 
Nov 19, 2012
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No scripture thwarts The Trinity...

Trinity doctrine was developed by men who wanted to become important in the early church, so they used the Hebrew scriptures to develope what the Greek-speaking Gentiles could not know to question, and the Hebrew Christians lost sight of over the generations.

And there are plenty of other arguments and scriptures that disprove trinity. Scriptures you cannot refute and arguments you cannot answer.

The term 'Trinity' is an epithet used to describe the whole of scripture.

Thus...no scripture thwarts The Trinity.
 
Feb 21, 2014
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Re: No scripture thwarts The Trinity...

The term 'Trinity' is an epithet used to describe the whole of scripture.

Thus...no scripture thwarts The Trinity.
There is plentiful evidence for God in Three Persons in Scripture.

Although the word Trinity is not in the Bible, what the word Trinity refers to certainly is a deeply Scriptural truth.

Blessings.